Travel Mapping

Highway Data Discussion => In-progress Highway Systems & Work => Topic started by: michih on July 26, 2017, 01:17:18 pm

Title: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: michih on July 26, 2017, 01:17:18 pm
http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?sys=beln

I've finally managed to finish the painful way through Belgian national roads :)
It's an European tier 4 system - which are usually drawn "lightsalmon" on our maps - but it's a quite dense network managed by provinces. It is similar to Dutch nldp or German deul tier 5 systems which are drawn in "yellow". I also use "yellow" for beln now.

It was quite hard to figure out which routes are signed (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/782) because signage is often bad in Belgium. A lot of GSV research was required. I've checked all routes which are listed on wegenwiki or wikisara and drafted all routes if I minimum found the number signed once. On the blue signage or on small red/white kilometer posts or mile stones. I've not checked that all routes are signed at both ends but went with OSM/GM (routes are very often not signed at the beginning/end). Some routes are not in HB although they are indicated on OSM and GM but I couldn't find any sign on GSV. See readme file (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/blob/master/hwy_data/BEL/beln/README.md).

I've recently read that unsigned routes are sometimes drafted for the HB, e.g. http://tm.teresco.org/forum/index.php?topic=2100.

Is my criteria - "I(!) couldn't find anything on GSV" - too hard? Should I minimum include the listed routes which are clearly indicated on GM and OSM? Should be about 25 more routes...

I've learned more and more about the locations where routes are usually signed. I've planned to check all routes mentioned in my readme file (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/blob/master/hwy_data/BEL/beln/README.md) anytime soon. Should I draft the "likely unsigned" ~25 routes and indicate it in my readme file (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/blob/master/hwy_data/BEL/beln/README.md)?
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: si404 on January 20, 2018, 08:53:10 am
starting at the bottom and working my way up (because I want to punch through the short dull routes to begin with)

N900s:

general - because Belgians are weird on top of terrible at signing roads, where you have A4, etc as labels, you might want to consider E411, etc as they are more consistently signed, especially on side roads. I really don't think it matters, but it's something that's there.

N983 - RueMu -> RouMou
N975 - RueSaiSang is RueFortJaco on all mapping sources; is N98 not N/S rather than E/W?
N971 - RueChe -> RueFal
N937 - PontMarGray is off
N913 - N5_Bie points should be N and S, not W and E
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: si404 on January 21, 2018, 12:17:20 pm
800s

N820 - add a point at RueTro to shape the route better
N821 - Mont -> War? (village you are in, rather than far off village)
N833 - RuMar -> RouMar
N859 - Mar -> RueBiz
N865 - add point at RueMou for Cugnon; N816 is north-south
N882 - RueFla -> RuePla
N883 - N81 -> N81_S
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: michih on June 16, 2018, 12:47:42 pm
It was quite hard to figure out which routes are signed (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/782) because signage is often bad in Belgium. A lot of GSV research was required. I've checked all routes which are listed on wegenwiki or wikisara and drafted all routes if I minimum found the number signed once. On the blue signage or on small red/white kilometer posts or mile stones. I've not checked that all routes are signed at both ends but went with OSM/GM (routes are very often not signed at the beginning/end). Some routes are not in HB although they are indicated on OSM and GM but I couldn't find any sign on GSV. See readme file (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/blob/master/hwy_data/BEL/beln/README.md).

I've recently read that unsigned routes are sometimes drafted for the HB, e.g. http://tm.teresco.org/forum/index.php?topic=2100.

Is my criteria - "I(!) couldn't find anything on GSV" - too hard? Should I minimum include the listed routes which are clearly indicated on GM and OSM? Should be about 25 more routes...

I've learned more and more about the locations where routes are usually signed. I've planned to check all routes mentioned in my readme file (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/blob/master/hwy_data/BEL/beln/README.md) anytime soon. Should I draft the "likely unsigned" ~25 routes and indicate it in my readme file (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/blob/master/hwy_data/BEL/beln/README.md)?

I think I should add all routes - signed and unsigned.

There are some unsigned Interstates that are included due to being part of the system. Maybe do the same here?

Yes, unsigned E roads are included in countries that don't sign them at all (eg the UK).
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: si404 on December 01, 2018, 06:52:57 am
700s

general point - obviously, there's unsigned roads that don't have a point but will when you add them, or have a point that is labelled with a street name, so I've ignored that factor as an issue.

another general point - should E roads get dominance over A roads in labelling as more prominently signed?

N700 - surely meets E313?
N719 - GSJ at the railway crossing (MuiStr); KooLaan -> EdwStaStr
N739 - MetSt -> SchStr
N742 - extends to N75?
N748 - heads south of N73?

all other routes fine
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: michih on December 02, 2018, 04:40:29 am
another general point - should E roads get dominance over A roads in labelling as more prominently signed?

I know that you think different but I'm with Tim that A always wins.
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: si404 on December 02, 2018, 07:58:33 am
I know that you think different but I'm with Tim that A always wins.
I don't think different - it was something that occurred to me as I'd see 'A2' labels on a road shown on OSM as E313. I've no real preference either way.
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: michih on December 09, 2018, 02:28:55 pm
N742 - extends to N75?

N75 GSV July 2017 (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.0218219,5.7145053,3a,75y,139.92h,64.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swwTErnjKdpbFsm1eovKqJA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) shows that the road is closed. It was still opened in November 2010 (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.021618,5.7146721,3a,75y,14.9h,55.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdpztCZki-NxAx4cAalHLiw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) but unsigned. N742 is not signed west of N78 according to GSV from July 2017 (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.0189588,5.7261299,3a,75y,288.88h,78.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDl14dbj7Y6XhBnRqJXof_Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: michih on February 06, 2019, 01:01:55 pm
@Si, do you wanna complete the peer-review or should I add the additional routes first?
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: si404 on February 06, 2019, 05:10:52 pm
adding would be better.
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: michih on March 17, 2019, 03:09:25 pm
done
Title: Belgium: waypoint request for N34 at N34g in Oostende
Post by: dave1693 on March 19, 2019, 12:34:48 am
Another one from the vaults of my 1978 student tour of Europe...

We crossed the English Channel from Oostende to Dover, by a ferry that has since been discontinued. I do remember the ferry dock being near the big train station, and OSM supports this: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/51.23083/2.92411 noting the "Transeuropa Ferries-Terminal" just north of "Station Oostende".

The nearest N route to this is N34, but alas it doesn't have a waypoint nearby. N34 uses a part of Leopold III-laan to go northeast from the Vuurkruisenplein roundabout, but then makes a right angle turn onto Ernest Feysplein (Google Maps shows this a lot better, as does Esri WorldStreetMap) and Leopold III-laan continues as N34g. N34g then turns onto Natienkaai and (if I'm reading Dutch Wikipedia correctly) ends at the train station, by which I imply the turnoff for the main parking lot where Natienskaai makes a right-angle turn.

Of course none of this is signed, but given the way Belgium signs its highways (mostly it doesn't), that's hardly a surprise.

I doubt we actually want to put N34g into the HB (not that I'd mind), but would it be feasible to put a waypoint on N34 at N34g, where Leopold III-laan intersects Ernest Feysplein?
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: michih on March 23, 2019, 05:46:18 am
I've merged the topics since beln system is still in preview.

I've not added N34g route but added 'KapStr' wp to N34. I've noted in the readme.md (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/blob/master/hwy_data/BEL/beln/README.md) file why I've not drafted N34g (note will be added after my next pull request):

Quote
`N34g` should exist (not being signed) according to wegenwiki (length of just 200m) and wikisara but it's not indicated on GSV nor GM and OSM seems to indicate it wrong (not from N34 to the station but from the station to the north)

I've generally added unsigned routes if they are clearly indicated on OSM. They are listed in readme.md.
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: si404 on September 07, 2019, 04:46:38 am
Is this system ready for review?
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: michih on September 07, 2019, 04:50:27 am
Of course! I've added the remaining routes last March.
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: si404 on September 07, 2019, 04:58:07 am
Of course! I've added the remaining routes last March.
Thought so. Let that one slip. Shouldn't be too difficult as looking at my previous look at the 700s, 800s and 900s, there was very few issues (though that makes it tedious)!
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: michih on September 07, 2019, 05:25:17 am
(though that makes it tedious)!

I think that peer-reviews are generally less interesting than drafting new systems. That's why I always tried to draft and review systems parallel or alternating. Now we have a bunch of preview systems and only reviews are on the agenda................
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: si404 on October 17, 2019, 08:54:20 am
As a break from a place more-French-than-France, I'll return to the place more-French-fries-than-France. ;)

I'm assuming you have got all of the routes right, and OSM has road numbers where there shouldn't be (eg N617 in central Liege).

N1 (Antwerpen):
 - N11 point merged with A1 exit 5 point (one point per interchange)?
 - between N129 and R10 route doesn't currently exist: split

N1 (Vilvoorde):
 - N1a_Sta -> N1a
 - add a point or two in Buda for indirect access to R0?

N1a, N1b: both fine

N1c
 - HofEik -> HofEikLaan

N2 (Zaventem):
 - AveComGem -> AveCom or GemLaan
 - R23_W -> R23

N2 (Diest):
 - R23_E -> R23
 - merge N29 and A2(24)? ditto N739 and A13?
 - R26_W -> N10/R26?
 - R71_W -> R71
 - R70_W -> R70
you've chopped up routes, but continued to treat them as one big route. Either put them back together, or drop superfluous directional disambiguation.

N2 (Bilzen):
 - R70_E -> R70
 - R71_E -> R71

N2c: fine

N2d:
 - VanLaan -> DokVanLaan

N3 (Tervuren):
 - is KorLaan the right label (this area by the is a mess!)?
 - is KerStr the right label?
 - R23_W -> R23

N3 (Liege):
 - R23_E -> R23
 - N671 off (and as theres no direct connection between two routes, is it the right place?)
 - N90 and RueJup off

N3e and N3i fine

N3g:
 - called N603 on OSM
 - GSJ in the middle there?

N4:
 - point for Rue du Trone?
 - MaaLaan -> AveMae (Brussels is de facto Francophonic, even if de jure bilingual)
 - EurPirLaan -> AveEurPir (ditto)
 - TerWeg -> ChaTer (ditto)
 - Avi -> RueTom
 - Flg -> CheRen? Fla?
 - Fls -> RouStr
 - Man -> RueMan
 - RueAss -> RueWac
 - RueDec -> Rue26Dec
 - RueBas -> RouBas_N? RouBas_S
 - BEL/LUX_Mar -> N23 (doesn't matter that it's the Luxembourgish one and the N4 is the border)
 - BEL/LUX_Arl -> BEL/LUX
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: si404 on October 18, 2019, 10:08:11 am
N5 (Waterloo):
 - add point for AveReiAst in Waterloo (leads to R0 exit 28)

N5 (Phillippeville):
 - RueMar off
 - is the autoroute section at the bottom end actually N5?
 - N5_CouN -> N5_Cou (sections don't actually meet back up)

N5 (Couvin):
 - see autoroute comment about Phillippeville section
 - N5_N -> N5 (sections don't actually meet up, and presuming that autoroute is N5)

N6 (Soignies):
 - FraKalLaan -> French name (Brussels de facto Francophonic)
 - R50_N -> R50

N6 (Mons):
 - R50_S -> R50
 - N546 -> R5/N546

N7 (Tournai):
 - BEL/FRA -> FRA/BEL, or flip route and have route direction matching radial pattern of roads, rather than default N->S and W->E grid pattern (either is fine)
 - R52_W -> R52

N7 (Ath):
 - R52_E -> R52
 - ChaTou -> ChaTou_E
 - ChaBru -> ChaBru_W

N8 (Koksijde): fine

N8 (Menen):
 - R36_W -> R36

N8 (Oudenaard):
 - R36_E -> R36
 - R9 -> R8

N8c: fine

N9 (Oostende):
 - R30 -> R30_E

N9 (Eeklo):
 - R30_E -> R30
 - R4_W -> R4
 - R40_W -> R40

N9 (Aalst):
 - R40_E -> R40
 - R4_E -> R4
 - KerStr -> KerkStr
 - N9k needs to be named something else
 - LouMetLaan -> BoulLouMet (Brussels French-first)
 - R20 -> R20_E
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: si404 on October 19, 2019, 10:53:13 am
N10
 - is there a reason why this and the N14 run concurrent with the R16, despite the single digit N roads being split when they have to run concurrent with a ring?
 - R16_N -> N14/R16?
 - R16_S -> N108/R16?
 - N19_N -> N19/R25
 - point for GSJ just north of DieStr (also R25)
 - N2 -> N2/R26

N11
 - N1 point should be merged with A1 exit 5 (one point per interchange)

N12
 - N14 -> N14/N158
 - break at R13?
 - add point at KonAlbStr (links to N119/N132 point)

N13: fine

N14
 - N12 -> N12/N153
 - split at R16?
 - add point for Hondiuslaan in Duffel (leads to N1/N1c and A1 exit 8)

N15 and N15a: fine

N16:
 - N403 -> N403/R32
 - N17 and 7(A12) merge?

N16a: fine

N17:
 - add point for Hoogveld?
 - WolStr -> WolfStr

N18:
 - R13/N12 -> R13 if N12 is split
 - add missing R18 and relabel relevant points?
 - move Mar ever-so-slightly to HanStr? (better point name)
 - add points for GSJs either side of canal between N71 and N136

N19:
 - R13/N12 -> R13 if N12 is split
 - add points in Geel that might link to other points?

N19a: fine
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: michih on October 20, 2019, 10:56:47 am
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/3240

- is there a reason why this and the N14 run concurrent with the R16, despite the single digit N roads being split when they have to run concurrent with a ring?

The N routing is clear when there no full ring. When there is a full ring, the routing is not clear - there are two options - and I've split the route.

- R16_N -> N14/R16?
 - R16_S -> N108/R16?
 - N19_N -> N19/R25

I thought about keeping belr as tier 4 but moving beln to tier 5. Both are maintained by regions but I think that beln is similar to nldp, deul or frad systems. I think that @yakra suggested the same when we talked about the tier colors. The more I think about it, the more I wanna change it. Any objections?

I've already checked all routes N1-N19 and removed N routes in wp labels when there were a R and a N route in the label name.
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: si404 on October 20, 2019, 12:06:38 pm
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/3240

- is there a reason why this and the N14 run concurrent with the R16, despite the single digit N roads being split when they have to run concurrent with a ring?

The N routing is clear when there no full ring. When there is a full ring, the routing is not clear - there are two options - and I've split the route.

- R16_N -> N14/R16?
 - R16_S -> N108/R16?
 - N19_N -> N19/R25

I thought about keeping belr as tier 4 but moving beln to tier 5. Both are maintained by regions but I think that beln is similar to nldp, deul or frad systems. I think that @yakra suggested the same when we talked about the tier colors. The more I think about it, the more I wanna change it.
I'm happy with this reasoning.
Quote
I've already checked all routes N1-N19 and removed N routes in wp labels when there were a R and a N route in the label name.
So now I'll highlight cases where there is, rather than questioning why there isn't.
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: michih on October 20, 2019, 12:40:59 pm
So now I'll highlight cases where there is, rather than questioning why there isn't.

Response to questions always helps the reviewer.
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: si404 on October 23, 2019, 07:32:29 am
N20:
 - R70/N80 -> R70
 - R72/N79 -> R72_N?

N21:
 - JulBorLaan -> AveJulBor (Brussels Francophonic)

N22:
 - JulBorLaan -> AveJulBor (Brussels Francophonic)

N23 and N24 missing. Do they get added?

N25:
 - ChaWav -> ChaWav_S
 - N4_W -> N4_N
 - A4 -> A4(8)
 - A4_Lou -> A4(8a)

N25a, N26: fine

N27:
 - add point for Rue Raymond Lebleux in Lillois (leads to N25 GSJ)
 - add point for SW corner of Nivelles ring (leads to N28 southern end)

N28:
 - N203a -> A8 (route renumbered recently)
 - Rue Lib -> missing N246?

N29 (Beringen):
 - R26_N -> R26

N29 (Tienen):
 - add point for N572 in Gilly (at the very least that road leads to N90 GSJ)

N30, N30b, N31: fine

N32:
 - R32/N36 -> R32_S

N32b: fine

N33:
 - R34/N32 -> R34

N34:
 - N34f - move to overbridge and either add route or (more likely) rename (also R31)

N34a, N34i, N35 (Diksmuide), N35 (Deinze), N35b, N35c, N35g: fine

N36:
 - R32/N36a -> R32_N
 - add point for GSJ just west of A17

N36a:
 - R32/N36 -> R32

N36d, N36e, N37 (Ieper): fine

N37 (Tielt):
 - R32/N36 -> R32_W
 - N44/N409 - merge with A10 wpt (one point per interchange)?

N37a, N37b, N38, N39, N39a: fine
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: si404 on October 26, 2019, 08:29:22 am
N40 (Philippeville):
 - N53 needs redoing (short concurrency between northern/eastern junction and the other junction which is the one-way system)

N40 (Libramont-Chevigny):
 - N929 is off
 - N95b -> N95d
 - RueRan needs another name
 - RueHas -> N887?

N40a: fine

N41 (Aalst): fine

N41 (Hamme):
 - DorStr -> DorpStr
 - R42 needs moving (also R42)

N42:
 - add point for LeenStr to match N42a

N42a, N42c: fine

N43 (Mouscron):
 - R43_S -> R43

N43 (Deinze):
 - R43_N -> R43

N44:
 - A11 is off
 - N37/N409: see N37

N44a: fine

N45 (Aalst):
 - N28 transition is actually a little to the south (here (https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8622499,4.0251502,3a,75y,185.7h,80.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKQ9CgwU60tjvPIU8aIX2RQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)). Vossel is the closest interchange, but there's N45 signs south of there. Up to you.

N45 (Appleterre-Eichem): fine

N46:
 - N42 -> N42/N462
 - N462 -> N462_N

N47: fine

N48 (Tournai), N48 (Brakel), N48b: fine

N49:
 - PasOpdPle -> LipLaan or KnoStr
 - KalDij -> KalDijk

N49a:
 - HalLaan is off

N50 (Brugge):
 - R36_N -> R36

N50 (Dottenijs):
 - R36_S -> R36

N50 (Mons), N50d, N50f, N50g: fine

N51:
 - BouAndBel -> BouAndDel

N52:
 - does this extend north?

N53:
 - see N40

N54 (Erquelinnes): fine

N54 (Fontaine-l'Eveque):
 - R3/N90 -> R3

N55, N55b: fine

N56:
 - RuePriAst -> CheNotDame?
 - N6/N552 -> N6 as doesn't actually meet N552?

N57: fine

N58 (Comines-Warneton):
 - TouStr -> 9
 - N515 -> 8
 - N336 -> 7
 - HouWeg -> 6
 - N531 -> 5

N58 (Mouscron): fine

N59:
 - GirTib -> RueTyb (cross-street beats junction name)
 - GirSou -> RueSou (ditto)

N59b: fine
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: michih on October 27, 2019, 10:40:37 am
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/3253

N23 and N24 missing. Do they get added?

https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/blob/master/hwy_data/BEL/beln/README.md

Quote
N23 is not signed according to wegenwiki and not on any map
N24 is not signed according to wegenwiki and only indicated on GM
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: si404 on October 27, 2019, 01:59:03 pm
Quote
N23 is not signed according to wegenwiki and not on any map
err: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/50.84270/4.38703
Title: Re: Belgium Route Nationale / Gewestwegen (beln)
Post by: michih on November 16, 2019, 04:02:38 pm
N23 was added.

I thought about keeping belr as tier 4 but moving beln to tier 5. Both are maintained by regions but I think that beln is similar to nldp, deul or frad systems. I think that @yakra suggested the same when we talked about the tier colors. The more I think about it, the more I wanna change it. Any objections?

Done: https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/3321
It already was yellow instead of lightsalmon.