Author Topic: cannl:Newfoundland & Labrador Provincial Highways  (Read 4818 times)

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Offline yakra

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Re: cannl:Newfoundland & Labrador Provincial Highways
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2017, 04:46:40 am »
Old Routes
Back in the dark ages, I drafted NL1 as part of cantch, and NL2, 3A, 100 & 430 as part of the defunct cansph system, using largely Google, and a bit of Yahoo, when map quality was still pretty inaccurate in the region. I'll give these routes a more thorough examination later.

Shaping
looks very nice overall in this system.

NL10: +X149881 -> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=46.759613&lon=-53.594903

NL30:
Suggest adding GowSt just N of the south end at NL2/40, to clarify the routing in this area
Suggest adding MarDr & LogyBayRd N of NL1


NL75: move NewHarRd to connecting road
NL92: adding BenPowRd between +X359076 & +X879408 can shorten the VISIBLE_DISTANCE.
NL201: still within tolerance if +X413558 deleted
NL213: move +X948317 more southwest?
NL215: replace +X910504 with Bro
NL220: still within tolerance if +X673370 deleted
NL231: adding HicHarRd between +X811555 & MainRd eliminates a VISIBLE_DISTANCE error.
NL233: +X576834 looks nicer here :)
NL320: +X702900 can be safely deleted
NL335: +X964529 can be safely deleted
NL363: +X997962 looks nicer here :)
NL364: Yesss. I like the way the shaping at the W end looks in WPTEdit. 8)
NL392: shaping point needed between +X310118 & ShoArmRd; BakRd fits the bill
NL417: +X341025 looks nicer here?
NL420: +X963385 = Well Done Sir!
NL421: +X856994 looks nicer here? Now I'm just getting nitpicky...
NL431: replace +X268244 with MarRd
NL440: shaping point needed just before the N end @ MainSt
NL460: +X775207 & +X976486 can be consolidated into one point

NL480:
shaping point needed between +X713425 & +X909597
+X940054 & +X691228 can be safely deleted

NL490: +X364507 can be safely deleted
NL500: +X840463 can be safely deleted

NL510:
+X937540 can be safely deleted
Satellite view outside tolerance near +X965918. Suggest replacing with +X174620 & +X439707
+X284238 can be safely deleted

NL516: +X660062 & X472528 can be consolidated into one point
NL520: +X386868 can be safely deleted

Offline yakra

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Re: cannl:Newfoundland & Labrador Provincial Highways
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2017, 03:15:07 pm »
Point Order

Some routes don't follow the standard S->N or W->E point order.
Which may be intentional; not every place does. For example, Nova Scotia seems to follow an "away from Halifax" convention. See NS101, NS103, and their NS1 & NS3 children.
Or it may be unintentional, an artifact of how WPTedit spit out the files while editing.

If we do wanna follow S->N/W->E, these routes may need their point order reversed:
<3> 10 20 30 40 41 60 61 62 63 90 91 94 210 213 214 330 341 344 351 361 362 363 364 365 370 401 (402?) 403 404* 405 411 412 (413?) 415 416 432 433 (435?) 480 503

OTOH, if there's an "away from the main drag" convention in place here, these routes may need their point order reversed:
<3A> 20 30 61 62 63 81 <100> 202 203 211 220 221 239 301 330 360 406 407 431 460

Nota bene: some routes are included on both of the above lists.

Don't know if N/S or E/W; not gonna split hairs:
21 201 214 222 450 510

*NL404 may also want NL1_W & NL2_E labels

Offline oscar

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Re: cannl:Newfoundland & Labrador Provincial Highways
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2017, 12:43:53 am »
NL510:
+X937540 can be safely deleted
Satellite view outside tolerance near +X965918. Suggest replacing with +X174620 & +X439707
+X284238 can be safely deleted

Also, looks like there might've been a significant recent reroute between Pinware and Red Bay.
+X841426 and +X289717 are quite far from the route as shown in Mapnik, HERE, and Google Maps, though not Bing Map or Esri. If Mapnik, etc. accurately depict NL 510's current routing in the area, removing +X841426 and +X289717, and a southwesterly tweak of +X442854, would do the trick.

I had thought, from my 2011 trip to Labrador, that there might be another reroute somewhere between L'Anse au Loup and West St. Modeste (that's what prompted me to look at NL 510). But apparently no such reroute has happened.

NL480:
shaping point needed between +X713425 & +X909597
+X940054 & +X691228 can be safely deleted

Also, ParPl => ParkPl.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 08:11:45 pm by oscar »

Offline si404

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Re: cannl:Newfoundland & Labrador Provincial Highways
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2018, 12:25:54 pm »
Point Order
I believe I just sort of made them and chose whichever way felt best. I've gone with the grid system as that's the standard in North America, but the system is probably more of a hub-and-spoke or stem-and-leaf arrangement (but it really doesn't matter which end comes first as long as its not random within a system).

I've made all the above changes, so I believe it's just the 'Old Routes' left to check.

Offline yakra

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Re: cannl:Newfoundland & Labrador Provincial Highways
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2018, 11:50:49 pm »
Quote
I've made all the above changes, so I believe it's just the 'Old Routes' left to check.
Thanks for making the changes.
I had still planned on continuing with a more in-depth peer review, but Real Life & other things got in the way for a bit. I can hopefully get back to it soon...
 • correct extent / termini (GIS) (I have made note in a TXT file of a couplefew issues here)
 • waypoint positioning, naming, density
 • Visible Distance
 • "Main Road" labels
 • Old Routes including TCHMai
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 06:41:33 pm by yakra »

Offline si404

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Re: cannl:Newfoundland & Labrador Provincial Highways
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2018, 09:08:01 am »
I had still planned on continuing with a more in-depth peer review, but Real Life & other things got in the way for a bit. I can hopefully get back to it soon...
 • correct extent / termini (GIS) (I have made note in a TXT file of a couplefew issues here)
 • waypoint positioning, naming, density
 • Visible Distance
 • "Main Road" labels
 • Old Routes including TCHMai

A little reminder...

Offline si404

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Re: cannl:Newfoundland & Labrador Provincial Highways
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2019, 06:33:32 am »
I had still planned on continuing with a more in-depth peer review, but Real Life & other things got in the way for a bit. I can hopefully get back to it soon...
 • correct extent / termini (GIS) (I have made note in a TXT file of a couplefew issues here)
 • waypoint positioning, naming, density
 • Visible Distance
 • "Main Road" labels
 • Old Routes including TCHMai
Quarterly bump...

Offline si404

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Re: cannl:Newfoundland & Labrador Provincial Highways
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2019, 03:24:48 pm »
Quote
I've made all the above changes, so I believe it's just the 'Old Routes' left to check.
Thanks for making the changes.
I had still planned on continuing with a more in-depth peer review, but Real Life & other things got in the way for a bit. I can hopefully get back to it soon...
 • correct extent / termini (GIS) (I have made note in a TXT file of a couplefew issues here)
 • waypoint positioning, naming, density
 • Visible Distance
 • "Main Road" labels
 • Old Routes including TCHMai
Here's another irregular reminder!

Offline yakra

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Re: cannl:Newfoundland & Labrador Provincial Highways
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2019, 07:14:15 pm »
Since I've got NL and the highways here will revert to my maintenance when cannl is live, it makes sense for me to make the edits myself as I do the review.
View the changes at https://github.com/yakra/HighwayData/commit/45b9d5b397793de87480f59b1b0ad99cfd4bad86
No pull request yet, pending potential discussion.

Waypoint naming, part 1
Found a lot of FooBarBazRd style labels.
If the cross road name has more than 3 words, use one of two options:
1. Pick out the two most important words besides the road type and use only those: Martin Luther King Boulevard becomes MarKingBlvd. Three words in total are included in shortened form.
2. Pick out one important word besides the road type and use it and the initials of the other words: Martin Luther King Boulevard becomes MLKingBlvd. Two words in total are included in shortened form along with initials of the rest.
I tend to bounce back & forth between the 2 options based on what I like best in a given scenario. The rules of thumb I went by can be broken down into several categories...

Place Name Access Rd makes sense to become either PlaNameRd or PNAccRd. I went with PlaNameRd, as it tends to match what's shown on signs (albeit without the "Rd" bit). That, and there's better opportunity for disambiguation between, say, John Smith Access Rd & James Smith Access Rd.
Place Name Access Rd   -> PlaNameRd
NL201: ChaCoveAccRd -> ChaCoved
NL210: JeanBaleAccRd -> JeanBaieRd
NL210: RedHarAccRd -> RedHarRd
NL239: OldBonAccRd -> OldBonRd

Foo Bar Baz Resource Rd   ->   FBBResRd
NL340: NotDameJunRd -> NDJResRd
NL360: SunPondReaRd -> SPResRd

Foo Bar Memorial Way   ->   FooBarWay
NL450: CorPinMemDr -> CplPinDr
NL460: ScoPolMemTra -> ScoPolTrl

When the name of a saint was involved, I switched it up a bit.
If the saint's name was not at the beginning, I dropped "Saint", and truncated the other two words.
Blob Saint Melvin Rd   ->   BlobMelRd
NL414: CapeStJohnRd -> CapeJohnRd
OTOH, If the saint's name was at the beginning, I used initials for the name, and truncated the other word.
Saint Melvin Place Rd   ->   SMPlaRd
NL403: StTerStaRd -> STStaRd
NL361: StJosNorRd -> SJNorRd
(I did this in a recent New Brunswick update.)

That last item also fits into my next category:

Place Name Direction Rd   ->   PNDirRd
NL340: MicHarNorRd_W -> MHNorRd_W
NL340: MicHarNorRd_E -> MHNorRd_E
NL361: StJosNorRd -> SJNorRd
NL363: EngHarWestRd -> EHWestRd

3-word names involving a water body, I generally kept the water body, and used initials for the bits describing just which Cove/Pond/Lake it is:
Foo Bar Lake Rd   ->   FBLakeRd
NL370: RedIndLakeRd -> RILakeRd
NL340: BlaDuckCoveRd -> BDCoveRd
NL410: WildCovePondRd -> WCPondRd
NL463: ClamBankCoveRd -> CBCoveRd
NL330: WhiWatPondRd -> WWPondRd (What's the source for this name? OSM has just "Gull Pond" with no generic road type; ESRI, Google & Shapefiles have no name.)

However, this got overridden by my next rule...

Old Foo Bar Rd   ->   OldFooRd
NL40: OldBroCoveRd -> OldBroRd
NL41: OldBroCoveRd -> OldBroRd
NL210: OldBaieEauRd_S -> OldBaieRd_S
NL210: OldBaieEauRd_N -> OldBaieRd_N
NL220: OldLorCoveRd -> OldLorRd

Finally, some changes that don't fall into these categories:
NL210: AnseAuLoopRd_W -> AnseLoopRd_W
NL210: AnseAuLoopRd_E -> AnseLoopRd_E
NL345: VirArmPoiRd -> VAPtRd (Originally went with VirArmRd, but changed it to distinguish from nearby Virgin Arm South Rd.)
NL320: NewWesValRd -> NewRd because I deemed New-Wes-Valley to be one (hyphenated) word.

NL320: added GloLn to break up a VISIBLE_DISTANCE segment.
NL403: FlatbayRd -> FlatBayRd
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 07:28:09 pm by yakra »

Offline yakra

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Re: cannl:Newfoundland & Labrador Provincial Highways
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2019, 02:55:47 am »
4f62841:
NL100: Flagged a few funky labels using grep. Zapped BeaRdSSide_S & BeaRdSSide_N as minor roads unnecessary to shaping or visible distance.  BeaRdNSide -> BRdNSide per the manual.
NL360: NWGanAccRd -> NWGAccRd. Heh. Having 3 words other than "Access" instead of 2 led me to do the opposite of what I did in the last post. :P

To discuss:
NL 330 & 332:
Should CarAccRd be HowAve? I don't see the Carmanville Access Rd moniker on any online maps or in shapefiles.

0fbd48c:
NL1:
@ LitHarE, OSM shows Little Harbour Access Rd; Truncating to LitHarRd as with the previous post. Just noting that Google shows this as another "MainRd".
Similar: NL361 had ForAccRd -- Forbay Access Rd per Google; Forebay Resource Rd per Bing. Left as-is.
Road names are hard to come by in NL; I'll take what I can get.
I don't suppose you found an official source to work from? I never did.

NL430:
This was one I did for cansph way back in the dark ages, when we used Google or Yahoo+CoordConvert for grabbing waypoints. Google's coords at the time differed wildly reality. I eventually noticed Yahoo was much better, and switched over (hence the +Goo/Yah note at MisCove. A lot of crap is still left in the file though. A run thru gisplunge should straighten coords out, and then on to pruning out points that aren't needed for shaping or visible distance.
I had this thing at the time about including every local road that had a local number in the shapefiles, and leaving them around in case a name ever came to light. Some do have names now, but many of these points are unnecessary and will be dropped.

Converted hidden points to visible where I found names:
+x04 -> JackLad
+x05 -> WhiHilRd
+x06 replaced with SprHillRd
+x16 -> GrosMor
+x430-15-01 -> EastLink
+x18 -> GrePt
+x21 -> BroPtRd
+x22 -> GraRd
+x430-21_N -> SunDr
+x33 -> CliPt
+x430-26-01 -> ZincMineRd
+x34 replaced with DeerCove_S
+x430-56-01_S -> MatRd_S; +x430-56-01_N -> MatRd_N; +x430-56-02_S -> QuiRd_S; +x430-56-02_N -> QuiRd_N (These will most likely get trimmed in a future pass anyway.)
+x64 -> PisBay
+x430-61-01 -> WilMitRd
BAM! And with that, all the original "local route number" hidden points have names now.

"Style Guide" stuff:
WLink -> WestLink

Added to break up visible_distance segments:
MillBro
DeerCove_N

Shaping:
DHNAccRd added
3miRock replaced with ThrMileRock. Incidentally, these "Loop Road"s that I see in OSM seem suspect, and I can't corroborate in other sources. Sticking with a truncated place name.
+x27 deleted
+x39 was way out of whack; replaced with 2 new points
+x56 coords tweaked pending a future pass thru gisplunge

Changed labels, finding something more "definitive" than the truncated place names I was using:
Bel_S -> BelRd_S
Bel_N -> BelRd_N
EddCoveW -> EddCWRd
Sources are divided on whether CasRivS represents Castors River or Castors River South. Found this. Leaving as-is.
CasRivN -> BarHarRd
+x430-54 replaced with WhaRd
BearCove replaced with ChaRd
+x430-54-05 -> MainRd, even though I'm suspicious of it. It will most likely get snipped in a future pass anyway.

f4931a5:
Flagged some hidden points so gisplunge will attempt to position them at the nearest road junction, rather than THE closest point in the shapefiles:
x03x x09x x43x x48x x65x x69x

More visible names for hidden points:
+x30 -> ArcPP. The existing "TheArcPP" point was not at a road, so it becomes the new +x30, and slides NE  bit.
+x39 -> LBPResRd. This breaks up a VISIBLE_DISTANCE segment.

More Visible Distance:
+x19 -> SSEth & +xx20 -> WesBro, breaking up the segment ending at HawBay and improving shaping a little in the process. In combination with that, slid the shaping point near Sally's Cove SW a bit.
EddCove added. Our VISIBLE_DISTANCE segment gets about 3 mi shorter. Slid +x54 W a bit.

871d4fe:
GISplunge neatly tidied up all those janky waypoints. B0rked a few others in the process which I manually fixed. Intersecting routes changed to match.

Next steps:
Pruning overdense points, checking labels.
Then on to 137 more routes which will at least be in considerably better shape to start out :)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 01:50:10 pm by yakra »

Offline yakra

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Re: cannl:Newfoundland & Labrador Provincial Highways
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2019, 09:01:50 pm »
b071cc0 & 1940ab5:
Deletions & labels.
Left in some points that aren't strictly necessary for shaping/distance, but serve decent-sized communities, e.g. SunDr & OldEddRd. OTOH, I zapped some stuff like BarHarRd & SavCove_S.
Discuss.

Road names are hard to come by in NL; I'll take what I can get.
I don't suppose you found an official source to work from? I never did.
The 3 places I'll most commonly look, OSM, shapefiles and street blade signs, will frequently have no names. Contradictions between sources are fairly common.

3miRock replaced with ThrMileRock. Incidentally, these "Loop Road"s that I see in OSM seem suspect, and I can't corroborate in other sources. Sticking with a truncated place name.
Rethinking this a bit...
  • Near ForPt, many of the local roads do have names in OSM. Maybe we can assume whoever was editing OSM was on to something, had access to good info, and got stuff right.
  • In the case of MainSt_Cow & SunDr, no other nearby roads are labeled in OSM. Main St & Sunset Dr come from the shapefiles, and are backed up by Google & Bing. GMSV in the area does not confirm Main St & Sunset Dr specifically, but does match street names as shown in Google & shapefiles.
  • Meanwhile, at Anchor Point, Loop Road is confirmed in the shapefiles, so AncPt_S and AncPt_N get renamed.
  • Here, however, OSM has a second "Loop Road", which is Crescent Street per the shapefiles. Pretty solid evidence of bad OSM info here.

(OTOH, shapefiles can be wrong too. Percy's Lane?

The question becomes, how much trust do we put in OSM's road names (particularly with common items such as Main Rd or Loop Rd) in the absence of any other data to confirm or refute? Do we just take OSM as gospel until something else comes along to contradict it?
Pending the answer to this, I've gone no-build on a few point labels for the time being:
ThrMileRock could become LoopRd_Thr (?)
PorCre could become MainRd_Por
ForPt could become... LoopRd_StB, or LoopRd_For...
GreIslCove_W & GreIslCove_E could become MainRd_S & MainRd_N
GreIslBro could become MainRd_Gre


Truncated place name:
Perhaps MisCove could become MainSt_Mis, if this is close enough to call it.
Mistaken Cove is our truncated nearby town name, which seems to override using a truncated distant town name.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 01:26:07 pm by yakra »

Offline si404

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Re: cannl:Newfoundland & Labrador Provincial Highways
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2019, 09:31:35 am »
No pull request yet, pending potential discussion.
This all seems fine.
Quote
NL330: WhiWatPondRd -> WWPondRd (What's the source for this name? OSM has just "Gull Pond" with no generic road type; ESRI, Google & Shapefiles have no name.)
Typically Mapquest or Bing or some other tile mapping we don't have now. This goes for any label that isn't OSM (in any system michih!) - go through the tile mapping to see if there is one. Then try GMSV.

This one, however, is just wrong. What I've done is take the name of the track at the shaping point to the west and then relabeled the wrong point with that name!
Should CarAccRd be HowAve?
Yes. I think what has happened is that OSM has found out the proper (rather than the informed-guess descriptive name either them or I made up) name since drafting.
The question becomes, how much trust do we put in OSM's road names (particularly with common items such as Main Rd or Loop Rd) in the absence of any other data to confirm or refute? Do we just take OSM as gospel until something else comes along to contradict it?
In the absence of other data, I guess go with it, as it is actually some data - as you said "Road names are hard to come by in NL; I'll take what I can get." - which is better than nothing.

But at the same time, OSM isn't the most reliable source, and so contradictions may refute it. Add in that all the sources seem to conflict (go with blades, then shapefiles, then OSM in a most-to-least reliable) and it's a mess :pan:
Quote
Truncated place name:
Perhaps MisCove could become MainSt_Mis, if this is close enough to call it.
Isn't that referring to the road into Flower's Cove off the road that loops off NL430?

Offline yakra

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Re: cannl:Newfoundland & Labrador Provincial Highways
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2019, 12:41:41 pm »
Green items are in 51ba293.

No pull request yet, pending potential discussion.
This all seems fine.
Just the one commit I'd linked just before that comment, or also the other commits downthread, everything in my NL branch?

Quote
NL330: WhiWatPondRd -> WWPondRd (What's the source for this name? OSM has just "Gull Pond" with no generic road type; ESRI, Google & Shapefiles have no name.
Typically Mapquest or Bing or some other tile mapping we don't have now. This goes for any label that isn't OSM (in any system michih!) - go through the tile mapping to see if there is one. Then try GMSV.
Yep. That's about the same approach I'm taking here. ("Take what I can get", n'at.) Except giving blade signs in GMSV higher priority, as you noted elsewhere.

This one, however, is just wrong. What I've done is take the name of the track at the shaping point to the west and then relabeled the wrong point with that name!
Aah yes, I see that now. Changed to plain GullPond (with no generic road type), lacking anything more concrete. Made the shaping point visible, as the new WWPondRd.

Should CarAccRd be HowAve?
Yes.
Changed in NL330 & NL332.

I think what has happened is that OSM has found out the proper (rather than the informed-guess descriptive name either them or I made up) name since drafting.
My suspicion is that there are a lot of these informed-guess descriptive names about on OSM, particularly with Main Rd & Loop Rd.

The question becomes, how much trust do we put in OSM's road names (particularly with common items such as Main Rd or Loop Rd) in the absence of any other data to confirm or refute? Do we just take OSM as gospel until something else comes along to contradict it?
In the absence of other data, I guess go with it, as it is actually some data - as you said "Road names are hard to come by in NL; I'll take what I can get." - which is better than nothing.
My thoughts too. I'll review the items I noted in red above, and make a decision.

But at the same time, OSM isn't the most reliable source, and so contradictions may refute it. Add in that all the sources seem to conflict (go with blades, then shapefiles, then OSM in a most-to-least reliable) and it's a mess :pan:
A good way to prioritize reliability, yes. With the caveat that OSM can be a bit more wibbly-wobbly if/when it disagrees with other sources.

Quote
Perhaps MisCove could become MainSt_Mis, if this is close enough to call it.
Isn't that referring to the road into Flower's Cove off the road that loops off NL430?
Looking at the link again, at the angle of the blade sign, it looks like it's facing traffic (yeah, it's on the same post as the stop sign) stopped on that road, identifying the parallel (to the sign) main road.
OTOH, over here it's signed as Grenfell Ave. So even if it is Main St at point A, it's Grenfell Ave at point B.
I don't have a good handle on what separates one community from another in NL, or where road names will change. If the name can change in that short distance, I no longer feel confident proposing MainSt_Mis; it's a bit of a stretch.
Having a signed road name here, I'll just add a GreAve point, and remove MisCove as it's no longer needed for shaping, sidestepping the truncated place name issue.
Coords from the shapefiles are a we bit off the OSM trace, but match ESRI WorldStreetMap and Goog Satellite.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 01:25:24 pm by yakra »

Offline si404

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Re: cannl:Newfoundland & Labrador Provincial Highways
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2019, 01:18:14 pm »
Just the one commit I'd linked just before that comment, or also the other commits downthread, everything in my NL branch
At the time I wrote it, just that commit. At the time I write this, all the other commits too!

Offline yakra

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Re: cannl:Newfoundland & Labrador Provincial Highways
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2019, 01:24:54 pm »
4ffe377:
On "In the absence of other data, go with OSM" grounds, the following all get implemented:
ThrMileRock could become LoopRd_Thr (?)
PorCre could become MainRd_Por
ForPt could become... LoopRd_StB, or LoopRd_For...
GreIslCove_W & GreIslCove_E could become MainRd_S & MainRd_N
GreIslBro could become MainRd_Gre
ForPt becomes LoopRd_For.
MainRd_S & MainRd_N on "The direction letter refers to the relative position of the intersection along the route whose file is being made. US90_S is the southern of the two US 90 junctions along US 25, which runs S-N" grounds.