Author Topic: usanyp: New York Parkways  (Read 3133 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline yakra

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
  • Last Login:Today at 12:07:22 pm
Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2018, 11:59:58 pm »
I will see your signage from the BRP and raise you this signage from Bronx Park East. I would interpret the signage for Mosholu Pkwy - both from the BRP and as seen in that image below the street signs - as missing  a "to", or having one implied.
Agreed. It's a fair cop.
Considering this in combination with the signage @BRP, let's say then that at the very least, BroParkEast is out as an endpoint. We can have the "One Point Per Interchange" rule wibble its wobble that way.
Think of the traveler who approaches from the BRP, takes the MosPkwy exit, and thinks he's all set, only to find upon checking the HB that...

Ultimately though, this is another episode of "What is..."

The name of that section of road is "Southern Blvd". It is signed as such,
Definitely the case at the SouBlvd intersection.
That's probably my biggest problem here, the lack of signage at that point for a continuation Mosholu Parkway to the south...

and Hagstrom always knew it as such.
3rd-party cartographers, Hagstrom, RMcN, and the like, I would put less stock in, in favor of direct gov't sources such as the TDV, TDR, or shapefiles...

The road named "Mosholu Parkway" ends at a T intersection with the road named "Southern Blvd"
The MilepointRoute2015 shapefiles have an RIS_NAME attribute for the section in question of "MOSHOLU PKWY", not Southern Blvd, "DR KAZIMIROFF BLVD", or anything else. So in some sense...

But, what is the Mosholu Parkway? Is it the road named "Mosholu Parkway"? Or is it a route defined by some other measure (e.g. the NYS reference route number), which is not necessarily coterminous with the road named "Mosholu Parkway"?

The former seems to be more in line with what exists in the real world, while the latter may be more in line with what exists on paper.

Of course, if we've already concluded we're going to define parkways by reference routes, including that section of Southern Blvd in our Mosholu Parkway file would at least be consistent with the established methodology.
Of course, there's not a 1:1 correspondence between parkways and reference routes.
Belt Parkway is 9087A, 907B, 907C, and 907D. But forget about that, becase this situation is more like...
Reference route 908K is partly SagStaPkwy and partly SunMeaPkwy.
• 908K is SagStaPkwy, and some other stuff that's not SagStaPkwy. And,
• 908K is SunMeaPkwy, and some other stuff that's not SunMeaPkwy.
It's listed in the Touring Route Book as "Sagtikos and Sunken Meadow State Parkways", but the TDR just calls it "Sagtikos State Parkway".
Similarly, Reference route 908M is in the HB now as just SouStaPkwy. It's been proposed to split the Heckscher Parkway off into its own file, and I agree there.
Touring Route Book = "Southern State Parkway/Heckscher State Parkway"; TDR = "Southern State Parkway".

Hm... So, the Touring Route Book does tend to list both Pkwy names for a ref rte if there's more than one... What to make of 908F just being "Mosholu Parkway"? :-\

Also of note is that TMK, every bit of reference route on the Parkways list is included in something in the HB, with the one exception -- full disclosure? :) -- of the Drumgoole Rd section of 909C.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 01:14:21 am by yakra »

Offline Duke87

  • TM Collaborator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 137
  • Last Login:August 15, 2018, 08:25:23 pm
Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2018, 10:43:50 pm »
For what it's worth, I asked my grandfather (a lifelong Bronx resident) today where he thinks the Mosholu Parkway ends. He said that it ends at that intersection (SouBlvd).

Also pointed out that at one point the road was supposed to be extended from there to the Bronx River Parkway  - a fact which Steve Anderson's page confirms, although this is interesting:
Quote
In the 1950's and 1960's, Moses, who served as New York City's parks commissioner and arterial coordinator, advanced plans to reconstruct the Mosholu Parkway into a controlled-access route. The $13.5 million reconstruction project was to not only cover the 3.0-mile distance of the parkway proper, but also include the construction of a 1.2-mile link to the Bronx River Parkway along the existing Dr. Theodore Kazimiroff Boulevard.

So basically, there were plans to extend the parkway along that alignment - perhaps thus explaining its inclusion in the reference route. Which sounds rather similar to the situation with 909C and Drumgoole Rd (parkway is stub, was planned to extend along that alignment).


Offline vdeane

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 75
  • Gender: Female
  • Last Login:August 15, 2018, 09:02:40 pm
    • New York State Roads
Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2018, 04:06:04 pm »
I could see a case for treating it similar to the Drumgoole Rd section of 909C given the signage outside of the BRP and the info from NYCRoads.com.  It would certainly be consistent.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Offline neroute2

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 47
  • Last Login:Today at 12:12:22 pm
Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2018, 08:50:28 pm »
Am I misremembering, or did the Mosholu have shields at one time pointing along Southern Boulevard?

Offline yakra

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
  • Last Login:Today at 12:07:22 pm
Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2018, 02:22:56 am »
Am I misremembering, or did the Mosholu have shields at one time pointing along Southern Boulevard?
Unless you mean before the era of GMSV, I don't know of anything, other than green signs for the BRP.
It would be nice, though -- Procrastinating about making some kind of decision in my mind to justify either including or excluding the Southern Blvd section of MosPkwy is pretty much all that's been holding me back from moving this system into Preview.
OTOH, when GMSVing around looking for historic imagery, I did find this, which may be enough to finally convince me to agree with Duke87, and cut MosPkwy back to SouBlvd.

Offline yakra

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
  • Last Login:Today at 12:07:22 pm
Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2018, 10:55:19 pm »
usanyp is now in preview status in the HB!

While you're making changes to your .lists, please note that seven existing usasf parkways (items in green text in this post) have been updated. Of particular note:
• The northernmost segment of FDR Dr has become the southernmost segment of Harlem River Dr. The former was truncated & the latter extended; they now meet at the *AHEM* Triborough Bridge at Exit 17.
Heckscher Parkway has been split off from the Southern State Parkway into its own route.

Hit me with some of that funky funky peer review!

Offline Duke87

  • TM Collaborator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 137
  • Last Login:August 15, 2018, 08:25:23 pm
Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2018, 12:30:46 am »
One other suggestion, something I just noticed now that all this is visible in mapview...

Ocean Parkway (Brooklyn) has its north end marked at Church Avenue. However:
- NY 27, in approximating the difference in its eastbound and westbound routings, does not have a point here.
- the named road Ocean Parkway, albeit not the reference route the drafted route is following, continues north of this point (as the service roads to the Prospect Expressway).

It seems to me that Ocean Parkway should be extended at least to point "5" on NY 27, since the two routes logically intersect and therefore should on our maps as well. Potentially even extend it all the way to Park Circle, which is where it actually begins. (see also)

Offline yakra

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
  • Last Login:Today at 12:07:22 pm
Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2018, 01:59:08 am »
The reference route ends at Church Ave. If I break my "Just Use the Reference Route" rule, that opens the door to similar questions for the Bay Parkway, Seven Lakes Drive, and perhaps more. I want to keep that can of worms firmly shut if I can. Hence settling on the reference route guideline. ("Just what IS a Parkway?")

I dislike that there's this gap in the maps/graphs, but there we have it.
One thing I have considered, is adding Prospect Expressway to usasf in order to fill in the gap.

Offline neroute2

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 47
  • Last Login:Today at 12:12:22 pm
Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2018, 02:13:09 am »
The reference route ends at Church Ave.
Which is NY 27 westbound. If we don't extend routes to the "medians" of routes they end at, we need to truncate the south end of RI 2.

Offline yakra

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
  • Last Login:Today at 12:07:22 pm
Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2018, 12:48:28 pm »
Which is NY 27 westbound.
Ah yes, this changes things. I had missed that due to sparse signage, and no clues in shapefiles/TDV, but now I've found enough signage in GMSV to convince me this is the case. I'll reevaluate what I've done with NY27 & OcePkwyBro here.

Offline yakra

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
  • Last Login:Today at 12:07:22 pm
Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2018, 05:43:29 pm »
Where NY27 joins/leaves the Prospect Expy, there's a bit of a "reverse couplet", where traffic going one direction is to the left of traffic going the other.
Compare NY16's north end (brown, bottom right) in Buffalo.

Original:
NY27 as it originally existed on TM followed the westbound half of the couplet.
FWIW, NYSDOT inventories NY27 in the eastbound direction, so this isn't what we see in the TDR, TDV, or shapefiles.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 06:16:12 pm by yakra »

Offline yakra

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
  • Last Login:Today at 12:07:22 pm
Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2018, 05:43:36 pm »
Normally I try to avoid tracing a route via one side of a couplet, though I make the occasional exception (same link as above). Instead, I'll often do some variation of "cutting across the diagonal".
Not liking the sharp angle, and finding the westbound routing confusing, I made some edits in 2016...

Current:
At the time, Exit 6 looked like it was just included in order to have the full length of the Prospect Expy.
Mistakenly assuming the WB routing to be via Park Circle, I cut directly from ConIslAve to Exit 5, which I left in place on "One Point Per Interchange" grounds.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 06:16:21 pm by yakra »

Offline yakra

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
  • Last Login:Today at 12:07:22 pm
Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2018, 05:43:41 pm »
Had I known then about westbound 27 via Church Ave, I may have gone about things differently...

Proposed:
A "median" point at the Expy & Caton Ave, while not my first choice for an Exit 5 point location from the standpoint of mapping the Prospect Expy, looks good from a graphing perspective. It does a good job of capturing where NY27 jumps off one road and onto another.
EB passes thru here on the overpass, via 5th St and Caton Ave.
WB passes thru here on the underpass, via Church Ave and the Expy.
It helps me to think of the ramp/street geometry here as a bit of a nonstandard parclo. :)
It avoids extending Ocean Pkwy all the way up to Exit 5 @ Fort Hamilton Pkwy to gain a graph connection, which I rather dislike.


...Thoughts?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 06:48:27 pm by yakra »

Offline vdeane

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 75
  • Gender: Female
  • Last Login:August 15, 2018, 09:02:40 pm
    • New York State Roads
Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2018, 05:22:55 pm »
The Proposed one looks like it's probably the best compromise given that sheer oddness of the area.  I can't really think of anything better.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Offline Duke87

  • TM Collaborator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 137
  • Last Login:August 15, 2018, 08:25:23 pm
Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2018, 07:23:52 pm »
So do I assume correctly that:
- the proposed routing would name the point at the Caton Ave Overpass "OcePkwy"
- Ocean Parkway in usanyp would be extended to have its northern terminus at the same coordinates
- the point name for said northern terminus would be "NY27"
?

If so then... yeah that's a reasonable enough solution.

It still leaves the northernmost 3 blocks of Ocean Parkway (which are part of the named road "Ocean Parkway" but not part of reference route 908H) unmapped, but... that's short enough that I'm not terribly bothered letting it get lost in the noise in the area.