Author Topic: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)  (Read 5027 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline peperodriguez2710

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Gender: Male
  • Last Login:February 01, 2018, 04:18:54 pm
Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2017, 03:46:23 pm »
BTW, one of the stretches of N-I that you added (NI (Beasain)) isn't part actually of N-I though being signed as that, but from A-1, as I explained before. Furthermore, new signage erected there shows A-1.

I've discussed this issue with Si in 2015. He wrote that the section is N-I according to TM rules. Routes are to be called like they are signed.

There's signage showing both denominations in that section and they are updating the old signs to show A-1 instead, but I understand it, so leave it as N-I if you want, it's actually Basque DOT fault (stupid, stupid politicians hahah)  :P

Offline michih

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
  • Gender: Male
  • Last Login:Today at 02:27:51 am
Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2017, 03:21:47 pm »
NII/NIIa/NIIz: https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/1138

Notes:
1: Not signed, not in HB
2: one way only and short, not in HB

3: NIINor
4: NIISau
5: NIIEst
6: NIIArc
7: NIIMar
8: NIIaAri
9: NIIa
10: NIIaAlm
11: NIIMue
12: NIIZar
13: NII
14: NIICer + NIIaIgu
15: NIIz
16: NIIAnd
17+18: Merged to NIIMat
19: NIIaGir
20: NIIFig
21: NIIaFig

Please always indicate if the route has a suffix, e.g. N-IIa. Thanks.

Offline peperodriguez2710

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Gender: Male
  • Last Login:February 01, 2018, 04:18:54 pm
Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2017, 02:50:50 pm »
Please always indicate if the route has a suffix, e.g. N-IIa. Thanks.

Ok, I'll do it from now! Here's N-III (no N-IIIa, or suffixes, don't worry)

1 - The first remaining stretch of N-III I've found starts at this roundabout in Arganda del Rey (wrongly colored, there's also a sign pointing backwards, but there's no signage in the previous streets, so I assume the parts before have been all transferred), after partly bypassing the town, exits it, then interchanges with A-3 (exits 33, 33A and 33B), crosses with M-220 and A-3 exit 35, contiunes towards Perales del Tajuña and ends in the roundabout (here's a sign of it: https://goo.gl/maps/7RcVGYZHf1z) with M-204 and A-3 exit 41.

2 - This section starts at A-3 exit 79, and though not signed, there is a kilometer sign some meters later. After bypassing Tarancón and crossing with N-400 (shares denomination with it for some meters), then interchanges with N-400 (ending the sharing), passes under the A-3 connecting with its exit 85, to finally merge with it here. Here's a kilometer sign a bit before the merging 

3 - This stretch, which starts at A-3 exit 93, crosses Villarrubio and ends in exit 95, only has this sign remaining (note the decolored by the years N-III numbering in the top part, this sign is so old it even uses the French font Caractères!)

4 - There's another stretch in Saelices from exit 101 to a stub, though as there's no signage it cannot be part of Travel Mapping. I'm posting it anyway just for any curious roadgeek reading this, as this stretch bypasses an old N-III section with the original cobblestone pavement of the CNFE (first network of roads in Spain suitable for cars), dating back to the 1920s. This historical section starts here. Also, in the whole section you can see intersting stuff like ancient signage and even yellow markings in the road center (like in the US) sometimes, as the roads in Spain were yellow marked for separating lanes back in the 50's.

5 - This part starts at A-3 exit 114, crosses Montalbo and ends in exit 117. This section also has very interesting old signage, like this (that's supposed to be a gas pump!), but what matters is that it's actually part of the N-III, as this kilometer sign shows (sorry for the angle, plants obstruct the view).

6 - This stretch starts at exit 130 (here a kilometer sign just after it), crosses Villares del Saz (here's the road number above the village name) and ends in exit 133.

7 - This long section going through the beautiful reservoir of Contreras, and which I've had the luck to clinch partially starts at A-3 exit 165, passes through Honrubia, goes over Alarcón Dam, crosses Motilla del Palancar, where crosses with CM-220, gives access to Castillejo de Iniesta, Graja de Iniesta and Minglanilla, to interchange with CM-211 and arrives to Contreras mountain pass, where it gets very scenic. After going through a tunnel (and linking with CV-4661 before, that goes where the N-III used to go before the building of the Contreras Dam and it's a quite beautiful mountain drive), and other one, goes over the Contreras Dam, which also separes Castile-La Mancha and the Land of Valencia. Another tunnel awaits us (now in the Valencian side); leaves the mountain area to pass under the A-3 for giving access to Villagordo del Cabriel, where it crosses with CV-474; after that, it goes over the AVE high speed railway, goes through Caudete de las Fuentes and Utiel, where crosses with N-330, CV-392 and A-3 exit 278, then with exit 281, passing under it. After that, it links with exit 285, later it crosses San Antonio, then it bypasses Requena (which also has a very nice cobblestone part) and finally merges into the A-3 in exit 291.

8 - N-III returns in this roundabout, linking it to exit 306, goes under and then over the A-3 to serve some housing developments, then enters Buñol and continues as a service road for the motorway for a while to finally merge near exit 322. Here's a sign in the other way next to Buñol just to be sure.

9 - This stretch starts at this roundabout (a milestone some meters later tells us this is N-III), bypasses Chiva and ends in a stub made by the motorway.

Thanks for your work!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 02:53:33 pm by peperodriguez2710 »

Offline michih

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
  • Gender: Male
  • Last Login:Today at 02:27:51 am
Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2017, 05:02:25 am »
You're welcome. N-III done:

1: NIIIArg
2: NIIITar
3: It seems to be an old sign. The section is indicated N-III on GM but not on OSM or the Fomento map
4: -
5: NIIIMon
6: NIIIVil
7: NIII
8: NIIIBun
9: NIIIChi

I'll upload it later or tomorrow.

Offline michih

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
  • Gender: Male
  • Last Login:Today at 02:27:51 am
Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2017, 09:13:33 am »
I've drafted the routes which are (partially) concurrent to existing E roads:

N122 (E82)
N152 (E9)
N154 (next to N152)
N234 (started by mistake because it's next to N330)
N330 (E7)
N340 (E5)
N357 (E15)
N430 (E903 unsigned)
N620 (E80)

https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/1140

I'll continue with N400 parallel to you because I wanna visit the region this spring :)

Offline michih

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
  • Gender: Male
  • Last Login:Today at 02:27:51 am
Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2017, 02:26:02 pm »
N400+ done: https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/1145.

How do we wanna draft CA-36 in Cadiz?
It's indicated with blue CA-36 signs all the way between CA33 and CA35 but it's not a divided highway on the bridge and west of the bridge. The beginning of Autovia sign is east of the bridge.
OSM indicates CA36 from here to the east and N443 for the west section but I couldn't find any N443 sign on GSV (only on AP4 east of CA34). GM indicates CA36 all the way.
CA33 wp label is 'N443' (no evidence) and CA36 on CA35. In addition, CA32 wp with AP4 is called 'AP4/N443'?!?

Offline peperodriguez2710

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Gender: Male
  • Last Login:February 01, 2018, 04:18:54 pm
Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2017, 02:25:21 pm »
How do we wanna draft CA-36 in Cadiz?
It's indicated with blue CA-36 signs all the way between CA33 and CA35 but it's not a divided highway on the bridge and west of the bridge. The beginning of Autovia sign is east of the bridge.
OSM indicates CA36 from here to the east and N443 for the west section but I couldn't find any N443 sign on GSV (only on AP4 east of CA34). GM indicates CA36 all the way.
What happens is that at first that was the N-443 all the way, but then they intended to upgrade the N-443 into a high-capacity roadway for serving Cádiz, the CA-36. The problem is that the José León de Carranza Bridge is only three-lane (as it was built for a national road, not for a motorway) and cannot be upgraded to a motorway bridge easily because it's a drawbridge, and that there's no space for upgrading into a motorway in the west area (it's surrounded by Cádiz city), so they only upgraded the east part. Anyway, the road keeps being CA-36 in the west part as this distancemarker and this sign show. The bridge is also part of CA-36, according to this sign and this other one. I couldn't find any sign N-443 sign either.

What probably happened is that that stretch was numbered as N-443 at first and recorded in OSM and GM as N-443, and then the government decided to upgrade it and then renumber it (probably around 2002-2003, there were loads of renumberings back then because of a new law) to CA-36, but it wasn't updated correctly in OSM and partly in GM. Then, CA-36 all the way from CA-35 to CA-33.

Keep in mind that having a blue shield and using that numbering doesn't mean that road must be an Autovía or Autopista. Blue almost always means motorway, but sometimes they do things like here and use blue signs for non motorway stretches. Also, remember that suffixes for cities (used for beltways and accesses) like M-40 (Madrid), SE-30 (Seville), V-21 (Valencia), etc. are used for main accesses and bypasses, but that stretches aren't forced to be motorways. For example; in Zaragoza, it's outer beltway, Z-40, is a dual carriageway freeway, but the following beltway (if going towards the city center) is Z-30, which is simply a ring of avenues. Another example is Soria, which has an access numbered as SO-20 which in a part is a motorway and in another, a regular road.

CA33 wp label is 'N443' (no evidence) and CA36 on CA35. In addition, CA32 wp with AP4 is called 'AP4/N443'?!?

I don't know what are you referring to with wp label ^^b, though the N-443 part with the CA-33 happens because of the same explained above, it was upgraded. CA-36 is as stated above, and CA-35 runs from the AP-4/CA-32/CA-35 interchange until Cádiz, going through the 1812 Constitution suspension bridge. For making it clear, on the east part there's a very big shipyard (easily seen from above, has the biggest drydock in Europe), then the road going above the shipyard is CA-35, the one going under it, CA-36. The issue with CA-32, if you're referring to its ending in AP-4/CA-32/CA-35 interchange, that could be because CA-35 was also N-443 in the part located before the CA-36 intechange, but now it's upgraded.

Well, I believe that's all, feel free to ask more things if needed  :D

N-IV will come soon!
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 03:29:25 pm by peperodriguez2710 »

Offline michih

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
  • Gender: Male
  • Last Login:Today at 02:27:51 am
Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2017, 01:10:19 pm »
Keep in mind that having a blue shield and using that numbering doesn't mean that road must be an Autovía or Autopista. Blue almost always means motorway, but sometimes they do things like here and use blue signs for non motorway stretches.

We could put it into eursf system (tier 2) but see below.

Also, remember that suffixes for cities (used for beltways and accesses) like M-40 (Madrid), SE-30 (Seville), V-21 (Valencia), etc. are used for main accesses and bypasses, but that stretches aren't forced to be motorways. For example; in Zaragoza, it's outer beltway, Z-40, is a dual carriageway freeway, but the following beltway (if going towards the city center) is Z-30, which is simply a ring of avenues. Another example is Soria, which has an access numbered as SO-20 which in a part is a motorway and in another, a regular road.

Should we draft another tier 4 or tier 5 system for these roads one day?

Some are already drafted as espa or eursf system routes. If I'm not mistaken, Si's rule was:
- blue signed divided highways: espa - tier 1
- orange signed divided highways: eursf - tier 2
- red signed highways: espn - tier 4

However, I only wanna draft N routes for espn because the system name is "Carretera Nacionales" (national roads).
Maybe we could create a new system (tier 4 or tier 5?) for regional/city/whatever "red signed" routes once espn will be completed?

What's about green shielded routes with freeway standard? Tier 2, tier 5?

I don't know what are you referring to with wp label

wp label = waypoint label: http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?r=esp.ca033.

It was a trigger for Si ;)

N-IV will come soon!

I'm looking forward to get it :)

Offline peperodriguez2710

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Gender: Male
  • Last Login:February 01, 2018, 04:18:54 pm
Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2017, 02:25:53 pm »

Should we draft another tier 4 or tier 5 system for these roads one day?

Some are already drafted as espa or eursf system routes. If I'm not mistaken, Si's rule was:
- blue signed divided highways: espa - tier 1
- orange signed divided highways: eursf - tier 2
- red signed highways: espn - tier 4

What I would do if I had to classify the most relevant Spanish roads into Travel Mapping would be:

blue signed divided highways: espa - tier 1, Autopistas/Autovías maintained by the Red de Carreteras del Estado in most of the country (Central Spanish Government), that would mean leaving there ONLY the motorways starting with A- or AP- (and that doesn't include some autonomical motorways that use the A- as well, like the A-321) AND the urban motorways (the ones with prefixes for the city they're serving name), as they are also maintained by the central Spanish government.

blue/orange/green signed divided highways: eursf - tier 2, autonomical motorways, maintained by the diferent Autonomous Communities. It would only cover actual motorway stretches, as most autonomical motorways continue as regular roads without changing the numbering. You could also add the non-motorway stretches for urban roads (like the ones we were talking above), as though being maintained by the central government, they aren't motorways so they shouldn't be in espa.

orange/green/red/blue/etc. signed roads: espaua (or whatever,  they're autonomical first class roads) - tier 2-3-4, autonomical main roads, from the width of six-lane dual-carriageway motorways to one lane non divided roads with the same wide as a national road (that means 3-3.5 meter lanes and 1-1.5 meter shoulders when possible, being autonomical doesn't mean they're secondary), as most of the ones converted to motorways are only partly, and they continue as regular highways. The colors of their shields, prefixes and that stuff vary from community to community, though I can help you with them and there are road catalogs for every community listing all their roads according to their importance, so you could see which autonomical roads should be here and which not. If using this classification criteria, autonomical motorways would be in both espaua and eursf. Here's where the road you were asking (A-1051) would be added.

- red signed highways: espn - tier 4 National roads, always maintained by the central government, remember that sometimes red doesn't mean national (see C-XX in Catalonia).

THEN, if you really wanted, as there are A LOT and would be a tedious task recovering all of them:
orange/green/red/yellow/etc. signed roads: espaub (or whatever,  they're autonomical second class roads) - tier 4-5, roads maintained by autonomous communities for serving medium-haul routes between cities, towns and villages, and not as wide as the first class ones.

And then there are two more least important classes of roads (Third class autonomicals and provincials), though I don't feel they need to be added as they only serve short routes between villages and the provincial ones may even lack markings hahaha

Greetings!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 02:28:07 pm by peperodriguez2710 »

Offline si404

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 680
  • Last Login:Yesterday at 08:02:18 pm
Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2017, 07:32:44 pm »
blue signed divided highways: espa - tier 1, Autopistas/Autovías maintained by the Red de Carreteras del Estado in most of the country (Central Spanish Government), that would mean leaving there ONLY the motorways starting with A- or AP- (and that doesn't include some autonomical motorways that use the A- as well, like the A-321) AND the urban motorways (the ones with prefixes for the city they're serving name), as they are also maintained by the central Spanish government.

blue/orange/green signed divided highways: eursf - tier 2, autonomical motorways, maintained by the diferent Autonomous Communities.
How do you tell apart a blue signed autonomous community motorway from a blue signed national motorway?

It's a lot more reasonable with red cartouches to keep it to just Ns and exclude the Cs, but with blue cartouches there's a wealth of prefixes for both your proposed systems, some of which overlap - how is the average traveller to know which system to look at to find the route?

As for freeway standards, the A660 in France has roundabouts and is partially single carriageway, several motorways in the UK are substandard, etc, etc. And to over-complicate things because of a very small amount of the kilometrage is just nonsense.

Offline michih

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
  • Gender: Male
  • Last Login:Today at 02:27:51 am
Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2017, 12:30:09 pm »
how is the average traveller to know which system to look at to find the route?

I never select routes by system but by region. I even think that only having A/AP in espa system would be easier to understand than having B, C etc. in espa too.

As for freeway standards, the A660 in France has roundabouts and is partially single carriageway, several motorways in the UK are substandard, etc, etc. And to over-complicate things because of a very small amount of the kilometrage is just nonsense.

German A60, A62 and A64 do partially have two-way traffic. They are signed as "Kraftfahrstraße" ("happy car sign") instead of "Autobahn". They are dedicated as Autobahn though. So what...

I don't ask to do it somehow or other but just ask for a rule.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 12:33:07 pm by michih »

Offline peperodriguez2710

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Gender: Male
  • Last Login:February 01, 2018, 04:18:54 pm
Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2017, 02:11:41 pm »
blue signed divided highways: espa - tier 1, Autopistas/Autovías maintained by the Red de Carreteras del Estado in most of the country (Central Spanish Government), that would mean leaving there ONLY the motorways starting with A- or AP- (and that doesn't include some autonomical motorways that use the A- as well, like the A-321) AND the urban motorways (the ones with prefixes for the city they're serving name), as they are also maintained by the central Spanish government.

blue/orange/green signed divided highways: eursf - tier 2, autonomical motorways, maintained by the diferent Autonomous Communities.
How do you tell apart a blue signed autonomous community motorway from a blue signed national motorway?

It's a lot more reasonable with red cartouches to keep it to just Ns and exclude the Cs, but with blue cartouches there's a wealth of prefixes for both your proposed systems, some of which overlap - how is the average traveller to know which system to look at to find the route?

Well, with blue there wouldn't be overlapping. Simply, all roads with blue shields and A/AP-X or A/AP-XX format, along with the urban ones would go to espa.
The rest of blue ones have either different prefixes or more numbers.

As for freeway standards, the A660 in France has roundabouts and is partially single carriageway, several motorways in the UK are substandard, etc, etc. And to over-complicate things because of a very small amount of the kilometrage is just nonsense.

It's not a very small amount of kilometrage though, for example, one road which is one part motorway and other regular road, the autonomical motorway Ma-19, in my island, has only 27 kilometers of motorway from 60 in total. Or the Valencian one CV-35, which has only 60 km of  motorway out of 125, there are loads of examples.

Maybe what I suggested is too much complicated, though I believe it would be nice that if you add first class autonomical roads, find them in a separated system.

Have a nice day!

Offline michih

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
  • Gender: Male
  • Last Login:Today at 02:27:51 am
Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2017, 08:58:49 am »
I've submitted pull requests for N500+ and N600+. I'll continue with N100.

Offline michih

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
  • Gender: Male
  • Last Login:Today at 02:27:51 am
Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2017, 09:50:28 am »
There are two N-636 segments. The Formento list indicates only the short (370m) section at Santander airport. The Formento map has also excluded the 2nd section between AP-8 and AP-1. Wikipedia lists the 1st one only but the specific article mentions both:

Quote
* La primera comunica la autovía de acceso a Santander S-10 con el Aeropuerto de Santander. Esta carretera es de doble sentido y un carril para cada sentido de circulación y su longitud es de aproximadamente 1 km.
* La segunda corresponde a la carretera de Beasain a Durango por Kanpazar, perteneciente a la red de Interés Preferente del País Vasco y gestionada por la Diputación Foral de Bizkaia y la Diputación Foral de Gipuzkoa en sus respectivos territorios.

If I get it right, the 2nd one is not a national road but managed by Basque County?
However, the milestones look similar (GSV). GM indicates N-636 from AP-8 to AP-1, OSM indicates the last segment up to AP-1 "GI-632".

It has partially motorway standard (opened in 2009 and 2016). If it's not a national road, we could draft it for espa or eursf.


The northern Bilbao motorway bypass - N-637 - is also not on the Formento list but paritally on their map. The wikipedia does not list it but there's a specific article. No info about management et cetera.

I couldn't find milestones but it's signed like espn routes (GSV).


I've drafted the short N-636 and N-637 but not (yet) the long N-636 route. Should I it too? Where should I put these routes?


Edit: N-638, N622 north of Vitoria, N-102 and N-104 are similar...
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 10:06:56 am by michih »

Offline peperodriguez2710

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Gender: Male
  • Last Login:February 01, 2018, 04:18:54 pm
Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2017, 12:24:37 pm »
There are two N-636 segments. The Formento list indicates only the short (370m) section at Santander airport. The Formento map has also excluded the 2nd section between AP-8 and AP-1. Wikipedia lists the 1st one only but the specific article mentions both:

Quote
* La primera comunica la autovía de acceso a Santander S-10 con el Aeropuerto de Santander. Esta carretera es de doble sentido y un carril para cada sentido de circulación y su longitud es de aproximadamente 1 km.
* La segunda corresponde a la carretera de Beasain a Durango por Kanpazar, perteneciente a la red de Interés Preferente del País Vasco y gestionada por la Diputación Foral de Bizkaia y la Diputación Foral de Gipuzkoa en sus respectivos territorios.

If I get it right, the 2nd one is not a national road but managed by Basque County?
However, the milestones look similar (GSV). GM indicates N-636 from AP-8 to AP-1, OSM indicates the last segment up to AP-1 "GI-632".

It has partially motorway standard (opened in 2009 and 2016). If it's not a national road, we could draft it for espa or eursf.

Ok, it's a bit hard to explain ::) I didn't tell about this before in order to make things easier, but I knew I would have to soon or after. I told you that national roads and motorways from the State Road Network are managed by the central government (Ministerio de Fomento) in all Spain. Well, that's partly true, because that doesn't happen in Navarre and the Basque Country, as they're comunidades forales (Chartered communities). That means they have some privileges (coming from the medieval era), and one of those privileges is that all the roads in their territories belong to and are managed by them. That's why the Basque country still used the old denomination for motorways made over national roads for a long time, or why the Basque Country and Navarre networks are so different from the rest of Spain. What probably happened is that the one in Santander was the first N-636, and then the Basques numbered one of their roads as N-636 too as they use the N- denomination for their first class roads. Although it has a part being a dual carriageway, I would add it to the espn, as there's no sign of "autovía", and the road specs aren't the required for Spanish motorways.

The N-637 is also not signed in Fomento because of the mentioned above, though it's still a National road, the same with N-638, 622, 102...

Sorry for the delay ^^b
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 02:48:43 pm by peperodriguez2710 »