Author Topic: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn) + Regional Routes (tier 5)  (Read 19550 times)

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Offline michih

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2017, 04:54:52 am »
the autonomus city enclave of Melilla is missing.

It's in: ESP-ML;Melilla;ESP;AFR;Autonomous City

But there is no espn route or anything else in HB right now.

Offline si404

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Re: Spain
« Reply #61 on: October 18, 2017, 06:14:08 pm »
many times the same road is one part motorway and one other big part first class regular regional road (take Ma-19 for example, it begins as a motorway with 8 lane sections and at km 26 turns into a first class regional road (with standards similar to national roads) and runs like that until its end in km 60) so we would have the same road divided in sections on diferent categories.
Ma-19's motorway section uses different colour shields - is it one road, or not?

And if we do that with Majorca do with do it with Castille and Leon, which gives their motorways an A prefix as well.
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Yeah, all urban roads listed there are managed by the Red de Carreteras del Estado except the ones in Balearic and Canary islands. One thing to note is that some of them aren't motorways or even part of them is motorway standard and the other one is regular road, so be cautious and look GSV before deciding.
This was to add them to espn, not espa - their not being motorway (or rather not signed with blue cartouches) is the reason I listed them. They are in now.
Sorry for misunderstanding then, if any help is needed to look after first class regional roads, here I am!
Why can't they all do what La Rioja, Extramadura, etc do and use the number to say what tier they are at?

It also doesn't help that yellow and orange are close, especially when sun bleached and seen via not great Streetview images - like I found in the Balearics - is it just the two-digits that are the top tier, or is wikipedia right and various 4-digit roads are too?
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BTW, I saw that finally we have as regions autonomous communities of Spain, and that's fantastic. I don't know if its definitive, but I believe that state managed A-XX motorways and national roads should stay in Spain region as they go across all the country
It doesn't work like that.

But there is no espn route or anything else in HB right now.
Spanish Wikipedia suggested that they were urban routes of the national system rather than Autonomous City Roads, but I couldn't confirm either way (no GMSV). Also the Me-NADOR is a bizarre route number!
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 06:17:36 pm by si404 »

Offline peperodriguez2710

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Re: Spain
« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2017, 02:13:35 pm »
Ma-19's motorway section uses different colour shields - is it one road, or not?
It's the same road, but the color changes when it isn't motorway standard, don't trust in the red shields seen in Google Maps, in actual signage it's blue when motorway and orange when not, as the other first class autonomic roads from Mallorca.

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And if we do that with Majorca do with do it with Castille and Leon, which gives their motorways an A prefix as well.
Prefix changes so you could either treat (for example) CL-601 and A-601 as the same road or as different ones, do whatever you like but take in mind one is motorway and the other first class autonomic.

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Why can't they all do what La Rioja, Extramadura, etc do and use the number to say what tier they are at?
It also doesn't help that yellow and orange are close, especially when sun bleached and seen via not great Streetview images - like I found in the Balearics - is it just the two-digits that are the top tier, or is wikipedia right and various 4-digit roads are too?
Politics. Each community follows their own numbering practices and laws, so... ;D ;D ;D Looks (and it is) crazy, but as I said I understand more or less how it works on each community (and Spanish is my mother tongue so I can look up their laws or road inventories if needed) so I can help you understand this mess hahah
It seems that what you said from wikipedia is right, but anyway I'll post what the local government says:

First class (they name them "basic first class" on the papers, motorway standard parts or dual carriageway parts; if regular road, first class national road-like. Blue and orange): Ma-1, Ma-11, Ma-12, Ma-13, Ma-13A (parallel to the motorway, from before the motorway stretch was built, serves towns and villages), Ma-14, Ma-15, Ma-19, Ma-20, Ma-30 and Ma-1110 (this later one has some old signs as yellow, but current regulations say it is orange). They link important places or main areas of the island.

Second class (they name them "first class regular roads". Orange): Ma-1A, Ma-1B, Ma-1C (This ones are stretches of Ma-1 crossing towns and villages which have been diverted, like happens with national roads, a letter is added), Ma-19A (the same as Ma-13A, this one has sections as first class and sections as second) Ma-2200, Ma-2220, Ma-3010, Ma-3011, Ma-3018, Ma-3020, Ma-3030, Ma-3232, Ma-3240, Ma-3301, Ma-3320, Ma-3340, Ma-3410, Ma-3431, Ma-3440, Ma-3450, Ma-3500, Ma-4010, Ma-4020, Ma-4023, Ma-4030, Ma-4040, Ma-5013, Ma-5017, Ma-5030, Ma-5040, Ma-5110, Ma-5120, Ma-6014 (only one part) and Ma-6020. They link towns and main villages, it's not uncommon to see them signed in yellow, specially if the signs are old, but according to regulations they should be orange.
Rest of numbered ones is third class (they name them secondary roads), which are narrower roads signed in yellow, linking smaller towns and villages. This includes the Ma-10, although being two number and the longest in the network it is yellow both on signs and papers.
And finally, the fourth class, which is local roads on the papers and aren't numbered.

I believe that we should do first class roads only, as the second class ones are a lot so I think we should stick to the most important ones and are all contained on that category.

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It doesn't work like that.
And how does it work then? When you split a region you cannot have roads running all along it? I think having to treat them as different roads with their .list names according to the community is pretty unconvenient but maybe it's the only way, idk

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Spanish Wikipedia suggested that they were urban routes of the national system rather than Autonomous City Roads, but I couldn't confirm either way (no GMSV). Also the Me-NADOR is a bizarre route number!
I didn't explain myself very well. They are managed by Fomento, yeah, I called them autonomous city roads because in Melilla they have the ML prefix, for example there's ML-102, ML-105, ML-300... In Ceuta there's national roads only so no worries.

Have a nice day
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 02:22:40 pm by peperodriguez2710 »

Offline si404

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #63 on: January 03, 2018, 10:01:30 am »
I've now mapped out all the top tier autonomous networks, save for Galicia, which I can't find a list (or rather 4 lists) for.

Given I reviewed michih's draft when I chopped the routes, and then did further review with the tier 5 systems, I'm going to activate espn unless I hear any objections.

Offline michih

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #64 on: January 03, 2018, 11:29:20 am »
Yes, I think espn can be activated, only some data errors must be checked (e.g. some SELFREFs).
I hope Pepe can find a reliable route list. What does "or rather 4 lists" mean?

btw: espib doesn't show up in the HB for any reason. I think Jim only commented out espcn yesterday....

Offline si404

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #65 on: January 03, 2018, 11:49:19 am »
Yes, I think espn can be activated, only some data errors must be checked (e.g. some SELFREFs).
I shall check them.
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I hope Pepe can find a reliable route list. What does "or rather 4 lists" mean?
The roads are done by province (like the esppv system), rather than Autonomous Community.
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btw: espib doesn't show up in the HB for any reason. I think Jim only commented out espcn yesterday....
Indeed - there was an error with it, but it wasn't commented out. Anyway, I've fixed that error locally, so it will be fine tomorrow.

Offline Jim

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2018, 01:51:29 pm »
btw: espib doesn't show up in the HB for any reason. I think Jim only commented out espcn yesterday....
Indeed - there was an error with it, but it wasn't commented out. Anyway, I've fixed that error locally, so it will be fine tomorrow.

I noticed the errors on that one later and forgot to commit/push the commented out version.  I'll just undo it in my local copy so it will be included in the next update.

Offline cinx

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2018, 04:47:26 pm »
Will the Canary Islands have more entries? For example Lanzarote has some short stretches of Autovia (LZ-2, LZ-3) and main roads (LZ-1, LZ-2, LZ-3)...

Offline si404

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #68 on: January 14, 2018, 11:34:27 am »
Will the Canary Islands have more entries? For example Lanzarote has some short stretches of Autovia (LZ-2, LZ-3) and main roads (LZ-1, LZ-2, LZ-3)...
You mean
http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?units=km&u=&r=espcn.lz001
http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?units=km&u=&r=espcn.lz002
http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?units=km&u=&r=espcn.lz003 ?

All there already:
http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?units=km&u=&sys=null&rg=ESP-CN

They are in the autonomous community system, are you saying they should be in other ones?

Offline cinx

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2018, 04:51:22 pm »
^^Hm, sorry about that. Somehow I didn't find them...

Offline michih

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #70 on: November 02, 2018, 02:58:47 pm »
Is espct by accident the only (European) tier 5 system drawn in red? Almost all other tier 5 systems are yellow (or brown).

Offline yakra

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #71 on: November 03, 2018, 02:00:23 am »
espvc.n344 and espcm.n344 both contain the roadway from A35 to A31.
Looks like this should be in ESP-VC only.

Offline michih

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #72 on: January 26, 2019, 08:59:15 am »
I've now mapped out all the top tier autonomous networks, save for Galicia, which I can't find a list (or rather 4 lists) for.

This? Numbered by province, but operated by the community

I think there are two options:
- Draft the routes of the 4 lists
- Don't draft any tier 5 provincial system for Galicia

Offline peperodriguez2710

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #73 on: March 29, 2019, 01:13:13 pm »
Yes, I think espn can be activated, only some data errors must be checked (e.g. some SELFREFs).
I hope Pepe can find a reliable route list. What does "or rather 4 lists" mean?

btw: espib doesn't show up in the HB for any reason. I think Jim only commented out espcn yesterday....
Sorry for not checking in! Galicia has the weirdest road numbering system in the country hahah

At first, autonomus community-managed motorways use the [AG-XX] prefix in their shields, with blue.
Most roads are managed by the community but change names when entering another province of the same community  :pan:
Here's a great example of this, in A Coruña AC-934, in Lugo LU-934.
ALSO there's a number of roads which are considered very important for the whole region so they also change names but in ONE of the NUMBERS!. These are the Vías de Altas Prestaciones (VG) and the Corredores (CG), which are one lane roads but with high specs, some of them higher than national roads, like without at grade intersections, wider turns, etc.; don't know if you've heard the denomination but in other countries they call them "super twos".
These ones feature the weirdest numbering system in the place with the weirdest numbering practices in all the country: they are signed in green and follow the format [VG-X.X] for Vías de Altas Prestaciones and the format [CG-X.X] for Corredores.
First number, before the dot, states the province where the road is, and is the one which changes. The denomination is 1 for A Coruña, 2 for Lugo, 3 for Ourense and 4 for Pontevedra. The other one doesn't change.
By now, the only road I found that does this change, the CG-1.3/CG-2.3, is still under construcion so there's still no stretch in the border, where the number changes. Maybe there's more roads which do the change, I haven't checked it thoroughly.
It is also common to see Corredores turn into Vías de Alta Capacidad and viceversa, so I would treat them as separate roads according to their numbering.
Provincial roads also exist but are signed in a different way and they aren't important enough to be in the project.

These weird numbering explains why the roads are listed in separate lists for provinces.

The ones I would include, then, would be the ones listed in those four lists as from the Primary Network (National road-like), which are theorically signed in orange and are the ones identified in the documents with the PB and PC categories in the Rede parameter. These are part of the ones which change prefix between provinces. Finally, I would also include the ones listed as "high capacity" (with the VAG category in the Rede parameter of those lists), which are the autonomous community motorways (signed in blue) and the Corredores and VAP's signed in green and with the "super two" standard mentioned.

Hope I explained myself well. If you have any question, here I am!

Good job with the rest of the network, it's amazing to see all those roads here! Have a nice day.

Offline si404

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2019, 04:17:29 pm »
Thanks, Galicia is my to do list. I am to have it done before all the other Spanish systems are activated.

Speaking of that, Catalonia's tier-5 roads are ready for review.