Author Topic: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)  (Read 12622 times)

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Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #105 on: June 07, 2019, 08:22:09 pm »
Finally heard back from SK's Highways and Infrastructure ministry. Bottom line is it's inclined to (a) disbelieve the shapefiles, (b) go with the signage installed by the city of Saskatoon (which maintains and controls most highways within its city limits, including the Circle Drive beltway), and (c) put SK 11 concurrent with TCH/SK 16 on the northeast quadrant of Circle Dr., as best-supported by signage, as well as the most direct connection between the province-maintained parts of SK 11 north and south of the city, and of TCH/SK 16 west and east of the city.

I plan to check in with the Saskatoon city government, to get its take on that and other routes we now have within Circle Dr., before making any changes in the Saskatoon area. Once that happens, I'll report back in more detail on what I would do with Saskatoon, which is the main loose end to be tied up before activating cansk.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 12:09:48 am by oscar »

Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #106 on: July 23, 2019, 12:46:25 am »
Finally also heard back from the Saskatoon city government. Its takes:

-- The consistent signage for both SK 11 and TCH 16 on at least the freeway segments of the Circle Drive beltway, including the parts west of downtown included in the HB only in the in-dev cannf system, is not a sign goof, but rather reflects the city's view that all of Circle Drive is part of both route 11 and route 16.

-- Provincial-spec route signage within Circle Drive for routes 5, 7, 11 and 16 (on Idylwild Drive/Freeway through downtown), 14, and a short stub of 219 is not remnant signage from before Circle Drive was completed, but rather is current signage maintained by the city as needed, and reflects the city's view that those routes within Circle Drive are for real.

My tentative proposal, to try to deal with the Saskatoon clusterfork, and clear the way for finalizing and activating cansk:

-- Move the main SK 11 route off Idylwild Dr./Fwy and Circle Drive's southeast quadrant, onto the northeast quadrant concurrent with TCH 16.

-- Add two SK 11 branch routes, one (SK 11 Circle Drive) including the part of Circle Drive not already included in TCH 16. and the other (SK 11 Idylwild) including Idylwild Dr./Fwy within Circle Drive. These branch routes would consist entirely of city-maintained and designated highways. @yakra, this resembles some city-maintained extensions of Alberta provincial highways, which we've included in canab -- your thoughts?

-- Keep TCH 16 as is, including only the northeast quadrant of Circle Dr., and not adding new branches concurrent with SK 11 Circle Drive and SK 11 Idylwild even though the city signs both as TCH 16 as well as SK 11.

-- Leave SK 5, SK 14, and SK 219 as is. Extend SK 7 east to follow SK 14 into downtown Saskatoon (a useless multiplex, but best matches signage on the ground). Each of these routes would include some city-maintained streets, but consist mostly of province-maintained roads outside Saskatoon's maintenance limit.

-- Remove Circle Drive from cannf, since it would now be completely concurrent with cansk (and part with cantch) routes.

I will have more to say about this later, but in the meantime would welcome early reaction.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 11:45:56 am by oscar »

Offline yakra

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #107 on: July 23, 2019, 11:08:21 pm »
Ow, my head...
Forgive me if this was answered above, but did you get any info from the provincial government?

Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #108 on: July 24, 2019, 03:18:48 am »
Ow, my head...
Forgive me if this was answered above, but did you get any info from the provincial government?

Yes, that it was deferring to the Saskatoon city government on route designations for the highways within city limits. But it thought the northeast quadrant of Circle Drive for both routes 11 and 16 was most reasonable from its standpoint, as the most direct route for traffic passing through Saskatoon between the province-maintained segments of 11 north and south of the city, and 16 northwest and east of the city.

An "Imagine Idylwild" urban planning consultant report notes that part of Idylwild Dr. is already off-limits to heavy trucks, and suggests that the city might reroute all through traffic from that part of Idylwild Dr. to a parallel street several blocks to the east. That, plus existing signage on and north of Circle Drive not encouraging use of Idylwild Dr. by through travelers not visiting downtown, are reasons why I would not treat Idylwild Dr./Fwy. as part of the primary SK 11 route for inter-regional traffic, and instead would break it off into its own SK 11 segment.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 05:31:34 pm by oscar »

Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #109 on: August 05, 2019, 12:10:08 pm »
Ow, my head...

Yeah, also my reaction to the confusing three different officially-signed routings of SK 11 through Saskatoon.

Further comment would be welcome. I've also contacted @julmac to get his input, as peer reviewer for cansk (he also lives in western Canada, with family in Saskatchewan).

I'm in no rush to make these changes. But I would like to do them ahead of cansk activation, to give users a chance to adjust their list files accordingly. Activation might slip until the Regina Bypass is completed around the end of October, which will reroute another part of SK 11 as well as TCH 1, and require some other changes to cansk routes.

Offline vdeane

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #110 on: August 06, 2019, 07:54:45 pm »
Personally, I'd prefer consistency between SK 11 and TCH 16.

I can only ask "what the heck was Saskatoon thinking?".  Perhaps someone can take the Ancient Aliens/VDOT meme and replace it was Saskatoon.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Offline julmac

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #111 on: August 18, 2019, 04:42:40 pm »

Further comment would be welcome. I've also contacted @julmac to get his input, as peer reviewer for cansk (he also lives in western Canada, with family in Saskatchewan).

I'm in no rush to make these changes. But I would like to do them ahead of cansk activation, to give users a chance to adjust their list files accordingly. Activation might slip until the Regina Bypass is completed around the end of October, which will reroute another part of SK 11 as well as TCH 1, and require some other changes to cansk routes.

I've put together a couple of maps for Saskatoon and Regina with my take on how do deal with them in Travel Mapping:

http://julianmac.homestead.com/files/regina_hwys.jpg
http://julianmac.homestead.com/files/saskatoon_hwys.jpg

I won't describe everything in detail but here are some more important points:
  • Keep only one routing of TCH 16, on the east leg of Circle Drive. This is the historic routing and won't necessitate any changes to user logs.
  • Route SK 11 onto Circle Drive west. This is closer to the historic routing of SK 11 as it and shares the south leg of Circle Drive.
  • Mirrored branch legs of TCH 16 and SK 11 could also be added (in order to match the dual routings indicated on the signs) but this wouldn't serve any practical purpose.
  • Add "City" branches for old alignments of SK 6, SK 11, SK 7/14, and TCH 1. These routes are all well singed in the "outbound" directions.



« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 10:24:29 pm by julmac »

Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #112 on: August 18, 2019, 05:38:30 pm »
^ Thanks! I'll be dropping out of sight for about a week of camping, but will take a closer look when I'm back home.

I e-mailed the Highways and Infrastructure ministry in Regina, about its plans to number (or not) existing SK 11 on the east side of Regina, once SK 11 is rerouted along the west leg of the Regina Bypass. No response yet, maybe no decision has been made.

Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #113 on: September 03, 2019, 10:59:28 pm »
I've put together a couple of maps for Saskatoon and Regina with my take on how do deal with them in Travel Mapping:

http://julianmac.homestead.com/files/regina_hwys.jpg
http://julianmac.homestead.com/files/saskatoon_hwys.jpg

I won't describe everything in detail but here are some more important points:
  • Keep only one routing of TCH 16, on the east leg of Circle Drive. This is the historic routing and won't necessitate any changes to user logs.
...
  • Mirrored branch legs of TCH 16 and SK 11 could also be added (in order to match the dual routings indicated on the signs) but this wouldn't serve any practical purpose.

Agreed. I would not add "mirror" legs for TCH 16 on the west/SE leg of Circle Dr., or on Idylwild Dr./Fwy, but rather would just cover them in some fashion as part of SK 11, even though they have city-maintained TCH as well as SK 11 signage. I'm also more reluctant to let the city decide what's included in the national TCH system, than in SK 11.

Quote
  • Route SK 11 onto Circle Drive west. This is closer to the historic routing of SK 11 as it and shares the south leg of Circle Drive.

This has the advantage of not duplicating TCH 16 on the NE leg of Circle Dr., and bringing all of Circle Dr. into TM without adding another SK 11 route file (a third file would still be needed to bring in Idylwild Dr./Fwy). Also, the SW leg of Circle Dr. has relatively new signage, since it opened only about six years ago. But the provincial ministry prefers that the SK 11 mainline follow TCH 16 on the NE quadrant of Circle Dr., as the more direct connection between the province-maintained segments of SK 11 north and south of Saskatoon. Google Maps indicates that the NE leg of Circle Dr. is indeed the more direct connection, 5.3 km shorter and 4 minutes less travel time than the west/SE leg of Circle Dr. I would go with that, and include west/SE Circle Dr. in a separate Circle Drive SK 11 segment.

Quote
  • Add "City" branches for old alignments of SK 6, SK 11, SK 7/14, and TCH 1. These routes are all well singed in the "outbound" directions.

Saskatoon city doesn't consider its portions of SK 7/14 and SK 11 as "old alignments". It says the signage on those alignments is not remnant signage of former alignments (as I thought at first, at least for Idylwild Dr./Fwy.), but rather reflects current alignments of those routes. Otherwise I'd ignore them, as TM normally ignores old alignments that did not become or get added to current routes. The main exception is the usaush system, including only former US routes in some states (no Canadian counterpart) to the extent they are explicitly signed as Historic routes. I added a few Historic CA 49 routes to usaca, but those likewise are explicitly signed as Historic.

I also think that what your map shows as an old "city" alignment of SK 7/14 is the current alignment, and there is no need for a separate "city" route segment. There is one overhead sign on the counter-clockwise lanes of the NW quadrant of Circle Drive (at the 33rd St. exit) identifying it as part of SK 7/14. But signage on the clockwise lanes of that quadrant (also at 33rd St.) identifies it as part of SK 11. Methinks the counter-clockwise signage is missing a "TO" banner, rather than intended to move SK 7/14 out of downtown onto Circle Dr.

I need to do some more research, including checking in with the Regina city government (on its take on the status of Victoria Ave. and Albert St. inside Ring Rd.), on your suggestions regarding Regina.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 09:06:30 pm by oscar »

Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #114 on: September 06, 2019, 09:48:04 am »
Unless there is further comment, I'll implement the SK 11 changes in Saskatoon outlined above, this weekend or next week:

-- SK 11 mainline rerouted to follow TCH 16 on NE quadrant of Circle Drive

-- new SK 11 (Circle Drive) segment, including rest of Circle Drive

-- new SK 11 (Idylwild Drive) segment, including Idylwild Drive and Idylwild Freeway within Circle Drive

-- remove Circle Drive from in-dev cannf system, since it will all be included in SK 11 and SK 11 (Circle Drive)

List files will be broken.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 11:20:25 am by oscar »

Offline oscar

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Offline michih

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #116 on: September 09, 2019, 01:20:18 pm »
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/3122

No update entries for preview systems! No precedent!

You can immediately activate cansk and hold off with the SK11 change and enter the update entry tomorrow!

Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #117 on: September 09, 2019, 02:16:16 pm »
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/3122

No update entries for preview systems! No precedent!

You seemed to feel differently about that just a week and a half ago.

Quote
You can immediately activate cansk and hold off with the SK11 change and enter the update entry tomorrow!

One problem with immediate activation is a peer review loose end in Regina (unrelated to the upcoming Regina Bypass). That might not be quickly resolved, considering the trouble I have getting the bureaucracy to promptly respond to my e-mails or phone calls.

Your point works better on whether to activate cansk before, or after, completion of the Regina bypass next month. That will require a mix of cantch and cansk Updates entries.

==

FWIW, the SK-related Updates entries would've said:

SK 11 -- sk.sk011 -- In Saskatoon, relocated from the SE quadrant of Circle Dr., Idylwild Fwy., and part of Idylwild Dr., to the NE quadrant of Circle Dr. (concurrent with TCH 16)

SK 11 (Circle Drive) -- sk.sk011cir -- New route in Saskatoon, including western and SE quadrants of Circle Dr.

SK 11 (Idylwild) -- sk.sk011idy -- New route in Saskatoon, including Idylwild Fwy. and Idylwild Dr. within Circle Dr.

Putting them here provides some guidance to users, even if not in the Updates table.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 11:25:25 pm by oscar »

Offline michih

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #118 on: September 09, 2019, 02:38:12 pm »
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/3122

No update entries for preview systems! No precedent!

You seemed to feel differently about that just a week and a half ago.

Sorry if you got me wrong but that was ironic!

Followed by: "Why don't we just activate those systems? Sorry, but that's the only policy I'd really change."

Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #119 on: September 18, 2019, 12:50:57 pm »
Just talked to a traffic engineering assistant with the city of Regina, about the generally old signage for TCH 1 and SK 6 along Victoria Ave. and Albert St. in downtown Regina (both city-maintained arterials).

He said the signs are directional signs, maintained to help travelers in downtown Regina get to the TCH and SK 6, rather than to indicate that Victoria Ave. and Albert St. inside the Ring Road half-beltway are part of/alternate routings for TCH 1 or SK 6. He also expects that signage will change once the Regina Bypass opens (hopefully late next month), which will move the TCH farther south and east from downtown.

Based on that, I would not add Victoria and Albert inside Ring Rd. to the HB. There will be other changes to the Regina highway network when the Regina Bypass opens, which we can address when they happen.

My plan is to activate cansk in the next week or two (will be busy getting my apartment ready for major electrical work next week, and to hit the road while the work is being done), and not wait for completion of the Regina Bypass.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 04:08:41 pm by oscar »