Author Topic: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)  (Read 2245 times)

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Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2018, 08:58:26 pm »
Quote
Double-checking the traffic count report, it looks like the HB leaves out some mileage on SK 54 (north end in Regina Beach), SK 60 (south end within Pike Lake PP),
Shapefiles match the HB for both.

Just to clarify, are you referring to the versions I updated a few hours ago? The current HB version of SK 54 ends at RaiAve in Regina Beach (BTW, there are Railway Avenues most everywhere in SK, even more common than Main Streets). The current HB version of SK 60 ends well within the provincial park, rather than at the boundary.

One more thing:  I forgot to ask about the north end of SK 135 in Sandy Bay. This endpoint (close to the SanLakeAir point in what's in the HB) looks like a better match for what's in the traffic count report, and the online mapping (which is unclear about whether Sandy Bay Ave. north of Hill Ave. is part of SK 135):

HillAve http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=55.525476&lon=-102.315920
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 07:11:09 am by oscar »

Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2018, 10:12:45 pm »
cansk is now in preview. With that, TM covers all of Canada, with at least the primary level of provincial/territorial highways in preview or active systems, except Nunavut Territory which has no highways.

The system does not yet include copies of the Trans-Canada Highway route files for Saskatchewan: SK 1 (= sk.tchmai), SK 16 (= sk.tchyel), SK 16A (= sk.tchyor), or SK 16B (= sk.tchnba). Those files will be added to cansk after peer review and just before activation, so that any edits to the TCH routes until cansk activation need not be made twice.

yakra, if I still need to tweak the endpoints of SK 54, SK 60, or SK 135 (as modified in tonight's pull request to truncate it to HillAve in Sandy Bay), please let me know.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 01:11:46 am by oscar »

Offline yakra

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2018, 12:49:16 pm »
Quote
Just to clarify, are you referring to the versions I updated a few hours ago?
Just rechecked for good measure. The versions in the HB now are the ones I looked at when I wrote that post, and look good.

Quote
(BTW, there are Railway Avenues most everywhere in SK, even more common than Main Streets).
I saw a few of those when checking out that first batch of routes, and thought "Welcome to Alberta!" :)

SK135: The new HillAve endpoint looks right.
SK165: There's a missing line feed between SK935 and +X261509, resulting in SK935 being off-position in the HB.
SK263: Signed E/W, at least here. Reverse point order?
SK264: Signed E/W, at least here. Reverse point order?
SK310: The old "SK743?" could be kept as a visible point for WestBend (Truncated, distant town name).

Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2018, 01:19:33 pm »
SK263: Signed E/W, at least here. Reverse point order?
SK264: Signed E/W, at least here. Reverse point order?

The 2016 traffic count report has both routes starting at SK 2, as if they were spurs from that major route. Since SK doesn't use km-markers much except on major routes, I'm not trying too hard to use the order in that report or otherwise deviate from the usual west-east/south-north orders, but in these cases I would leave the east-west order alone.

Oddly enough, the report uses a east to west order for some major cross-province routes, including TCH 1 and TCH 16, as well as SK 3 and SK 5, at least. I don't feel like flipping their waypoint orders, especially with the mismatched point orders with the corresponding routes in AB and MB.

Other changes are in my queue, for tonight's pull along with a label fix in SK 18 (SK606 -> SK350/606, which caused an error for my list file). Otherwise, I plan to give cansk a rest for awhile, as I work on plans (subject to jury duty obligations later this week) to hit the road again for a few weeks.

Thanks again for your dives into the shapefiles.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 01:51:03 pm by oscar »

Offline 7/8

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2018, 10:23:17 pm »
Thanks again oscar and yakra for working on this! It's great to have my Saskatchewan travels on TM :)

For SK 11, could a shape point be added between SK219 and LorAve in Saskatoon? Right now, it looks like SK 11 follows Lorne Ave instead of the Idylwyld Freeway. On the system map, this could also look like an extension of SK 219 (which is made even more confusing since Wikipedia incorrectly believes it is).

Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2018, 10:33:37 pm »
For SK 11, could a shape point be added between SK219 and LorAve in Saskatoon? Right now, it looks like SK 11 follows Lorne Ave instead of the Idylwyld Freeway. On the system map, this could also look like an extension of SK 219 (which is made even more confusing since Wikipedia incorrectly believes it is).

A labeled waypoint at the (very) partial interchange with Taylor Street should do the trick. We prefer to use labeled waypoints for shaping where possible, though especially in rural areas that's sometimes not possible.

The revised file is in my queue, though I'll hold off on pulling this in until mid-week or so.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 10:38:45 pm by oscar »

Offline yakra

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2018, 03:04:20 am »
OK. I'm fine with the point order as-is.

Offline julmac

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2018, 12:56:46 pm »
My notes for routes 2 through 10: (critical in bold)

SK 2
-add WP @ 3 St (Rockglen)
-add WPs @ Dominion St, 6 St (Assiniboia)
-WP54 (SK202) is in the wrong location (SK 202 needs to be fixed as well - it should routed south to Twp Rd 184)
-the SP between WPs 29 and 30 is off
-add WPs @ Hodlfast, Dana access roads
-add WP @ Pulp Haul Rd north of Prince Albert

SK 3
-WP 26 (SK697) should be moved 2 miles east
-match WPs with SK 4 through Glaslyn and with SK2 through Prince Albert

-add WP @ Twp Rd 464 (Birch Hills)
-add WP @ Marcotte St (Hudson Bay)

SK4
-add WP @ Rhineland Access Rd
-add WP @ Saskatchewan Dr (Swift Current)

SK5
-add WP @Spadina Cr, 2nd Ave (Saskatoon)
-add WP @Anaheim Access Rd
-change WP49 to SK746
-add WP @ 1st St (Canora)

SK6
-add WP @ SK729 (Twp Rd 202)
-add WP @ SK743 (Twp Rd 310)

-delete WP 50,51

SK7
-change WP 37 to SK672/762

SK8
-add WP @ Wright Rd (Moosomin)
-add WP @ Ellise St (Rocanville)
-remove "600" from WP23 (only SK308)
-rename WP 62 (not "SK662"?)


SK9
-add WP @Marcotte St (Hudson Bay)

SK10
-add SP on curve in Melville

Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2018, 01:57:18 pm »
My notes so far on your comments so far.

I'll be hitting the road in a few days. Before then, I'll do a pull request for the changes indicated below. While I'm out (at least two weeks), I won't be doing much work on cansk, but can respond to questions. My notes below illustrate my general approach, especially on adding waypoints.

SK 2

...

-WP54 (SK202) is in the wrong location (SK 202 needs to be fixed as well - it should routed south to Twp Rd 184)

2013 GMSV shows an SK 202 marker on the alignment shown in OSM/Mapnik, and that the alternate alignment shown in Google Maps is only a detour route. The official highway map shows both routings as paved, without indicating which one is SK 202.

OTOH, the 2016 provincial traffic count report (which I didn't have when I drafted the SK 2 and SK 202 route files) seems to agree with you. The traffic count report item on SK 202 is unclear about how it connects to route SK 2. But the SK 2 list indicates that its junction with SK 202 is about 4.91km SE of the SK 42 junction, which would put the SK 2/202 junction right around township road 184. So I'll make that adjustment.

This seems to be just one example of conflicts among the online mapping sources. I usually go with OSM/Mapnik over Google Maps, but sometimes GM is right, and sometimes both are wrong. And official sources can be unclear as well, though here one of them is clear enough. Grrrr.

Quote
SK 2 (other)
-add WP @ 3 St (Rockglen)
-add WPs @ Dominion St, 6 St (Assiniboia)

Not needed for shaping.  One waypoint in Rockglen, and three waypoints in Assiniboia should be enough for communities of their size, unless someone specifically needs another for their list files. Especially with all the new systems being added in the Eastern Hemisphere, I'm being conservative about adding points (labeled or shaping) to TM's server.

Quote
-the SP between WPs 29 and 30 is off

By about 0.01 mile. I'm tweaking it since SK 2 needs other changes anyway, but otherwise I'd let it go. I don't view shaping points (unlike labeled waypoints) as a high-precision exercise, so long as the route as shown in OSM/Mapnik stays within lateral tolerances.

Quote
-add WPs @ Hodlfast, Dana access roads

SK732_E covers Holdfast's south access.

As for Dana, seems to be a tiny ghost town near a closed military site (along with Sage Hill, closer to SK 2). Not crazy about adding otherwise-unneeded points for every little town near a highway, especially the ones not right on the highway. (Turns out that West Bend, for which I just added a point on SK 310, also fits that description, so that'll go too.)

Quote
-add WP @ Pulp Haul Rd north of Prince Albert

Not needed on SK 2 for shaping or otherwise, and it's less than two miles from existing SK 2 waypoint SK355. There is a PulpHaulRd point on SK 55, but that one is needed for shaping and/or distance, not because of the importance of the road.

Quote
SK 3
-WP 26 (SK697) should be moved 2 miles east

Google Maps says SK 697 goes south from SK 3 there. OSM/Mapnik says it only goes north, from where we have it. GMSV confirms the former, but not the latter. But the traffic count report suggests that Mapnik is right.

So I'll split the difference, create a new SK697_S point at the location you suggest, and rename the existing SK697 point to SK697_N.

Quote
-match WPs with SK 4 through Glaslyn and with SK2 through Prince Albert[/b]

Thanks. These probably won't be the only broken concurrences needing a fix -- I'll have to look for others.

Quote
-add WP @ Twp Rd 464 (Birch Hills)
-add WP @ Marcotte St (Hudson Bay)

TR 464 is only about 0.3 mile from waypoint SK25. SK 25 and WilSt seem good enough in Birch Hills.

As for Marcotte St. in Hudson Bay (on SK 9 as well as SK 3), even if a point there were needed for shaping (not really, the curve in Hudson Bay between the two SK 3/9 junctions is just barely within lateral tolerance), it's also not shown in OSM/Mapnik, only in Google Maps. So we don't have any open-source/non-commercial coordinates for that intersection, unless perhaps we go to the shapefiles which I'd rather not do here. As a matter of policy, TM avoids grabbing coordinates from commercial mapping like Google Maps, though it's OK to consult those sources on other matters such as waypoint names.

Quote
SK5
-change WP49 to SK746

I think you meant waypoint 50, SK745 (please refer to labels rather than or in addition to waypoint numbers, which can change as I edit the file). Anyway, SK745 => SK746. Also, RR51 => TinyRd (identified in the traffic count report).

Quote
-add WP @Spadina Cr, 2nd Ave (Saskatoon)
-add WP @Anaheim Access Rd
-add WP @ 1st St (Canora)

All of these are very close to existing waypoints, and I think don't help. The Annaheim Access Road is interesting for being paved, which is unusual for such a long unnumbered rural road in Saskatchewan. But it does go a long way off SK 5 to a rather small community, plus its intersection with SK 5 is only about a mile away from existing waypoint SK667.

Quote
SK6
-add WP @ SK729 (Twp Rd 202)
-add WP @ SK743 (Twp Rd 310)


Added. SK 743 was really hard to find, since online mapping doesn't show it anywhere near SK 6, nor does it usually show township and range road numbers that could otherwise be used as reference points. But 2013 GMSV confirmed my guess about where it would be.

Quote
-delete WP 50,51

I'm guessing you meant 51 (EdgRd) and 52 (FooRd). Adding SK743 between them makes them less necessary, but I'm inclined to leave them in.

Quote
SK7
-change WP 37 to SK672/762

Done.

Quote
SK8
-add WP @ Wright Rd (Moosomin)
-add WP @ Ellise St (Rocanville)

WriRd is needed for shaping. EllSt is not.

Quote
-remove "600" from WP23 (only SK308)

Will do that and other changes. OSM/Mapnik has SK 600 concurrent with SK 8 and SK 308 from Rocanville to Welwyn, which would be a weird unsigned "implied concurrence". However, other maps have SK 600 avoiding Rocanville altogether, winding from Spy Hill to Welwyn well east of Rocanville, or including only segments from Welwyn south, so I question OSM/Mapnik's showing three SK 8/SK 600 intersections. I'll rename the three points on SK 8, and the two on SK 308, with SK600 references.

Quote
-rename WP 62 (not "SK662"?)

2009 GMSV shows an SK 662 marker at that location. The latest official road map is unclear about SK 662's routing.

I was going to label the point "SwanPla" until I found the above GMSV imagery (looking in vain for a township road sign, since wasn't sure from the 2008 MapArt atlas or otherwise what the TR number was). If it becomes clearer that SK 662 doesn't go to Swan Plains, I might change the point label back to SwanPla.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 10:58:16 pm by oscar »

Offline yakra

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2018, 01:45:44 am »
Quote
(Turns out that West Bend, for which I just added a point on SK 310, also fits that description, so that'll go too.)
Aah, but does not a visible waypoint trump a hidden shaping point? ;)

Offline julmac

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2018, 07:55:35 pm »

Quote
SK 2 (other)
-add WP @ 3 St (Rockglen)
-add WPs @ Dominion St, 6 St (Assiniboia)

Not needed for shaping.  One waypoint in Rockglen, and three waypoints in Assiniboia should be enough for communities of their size, unless someone specifically needs another for their list files. Especially with all the new systems being added in the Eastern Hemisphere, I'm being conservative about adding points (labeled or shaping) to TM's server.

I would argue that WPs are required at all intersections where turns are required, otherwise the routing is ambiguous. For example,  I'm having trouble updating my log file for usaush because I don't know (without doing my own research) where US101HisSan is routed through La Jolla.

Quote
Quote
-add WPs @ Hodlfast, Dana access roads

SK732_E covers Holdfast's south access.

As for Dana, seems to be a tiny ghost town near a closed military site (along with Sage Hill, closer to SK 2). Not crazy about adding otherwise-unneeded points for every little town near a highway, especially the ones not right on the highway. (Turns out that West Bend, for which I just added a point on SK 310, also fits that description, so that'll go too.)

I'm pointing out all "Access Roads" as candidates for WPs because they are part of the provincial system.

Quote
Quote
-add WP @ Pulp Haul Rd north of Prince Albert

Not needed on SK 2 for shaping or otherwise, and it's less than two miles from existing SK 2 waypoint SK355. There is a PulpHaulRd point on SK 55, but that one is needed for shaping and/or distance, not because of the importance of the road.

Pulp Haul Rd is also part of the provincial system.

Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2018, 09:47:41 am »

Quote
SK 2 (other)
-add WP @ 3 St (Rockglen)
-add WPs @ Dominion St, 6 St (Assiniboia)

Not needed for shaping.  One waypoint in Rockglen, and three waypoints in Assiniboia should be enough for communities of their size, unless someone specifically needs another for their list files. Especially with all the new systems being added in the Eastern Hemisphere, I'm being conservative about adding points (labeled or shaping) to TM's server.

I would argue that WPs are required at all intersections where turns are required, otherwise the routing is ambiguous. For example,  I'm having trouble updating my log file for usaush because I don't know (without doing my own research) where US101HisSan is routed through La Jolla.

I disagree, at least for the gentle curves in Assiniboia which seem unlikely to throw off travelers. The 90-degree turn in Rockglen, maybe. That more resembles SK 29 in Wilkie, which goes north into town, turns ESE onto a different-named street, then changes street names again to resume its northward path. I put in points for those turns, since they seemed likely to confuse travelers.

I can't comment on the La Jolla situation, since I'm not maintaining that preview system.

Quote
Quote
Quote
-add WPs @ Hodlfast, Dana access roads

SK732_E covers Holdfast's south access.

As for Dana, seems to be a tiny ghost town near a closed military site (along with Sage Hill, closer to SK 2). Not crazy about adding otherwise-unneeded points for every little town near a highway, especially the ones not right on the highway. (Turns out that West Bend, for which I just added a point on SK 310, also fits that description, so that'll go too.)

I'm pointing out all "Access Roads" as candidates for WPs because they are part of the provincial system.

Quote
Quote
-add WP @ Pulp Haul Rd north of Prince Albert

Not needed on SK 2 for shaping or otherwise, and it's less than two miles from existing SK 2 waypoint SK355. There is a PulpHaulRd point on SK 55, but that one is needed for shaping and/or distance, not because of the importance of the road.

Pulp Haul Rd is also part of the provincial system.

How can you tell these roads are "part of the provincial system"? They don't have route numbers, either in the 1-399 primary routes or the 9xx province-maintained secondary routes.

Offline yakra

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2018, 01:34:58 pm »
How can you tell these roads are "part of the provincial system"? They don't have route numbers, either in the 1-399 primary routes or the 9xx province-maintained secondary routes.

This could be a situation similar to Manitoba. I'm not familiar with what exactly it is or how it works, but the Manitoba Land Initiative shapefiles include Provincial Trunk Highways, Provincial Roads, and "Access Roads", which have a ROAD_NO attribute of 600-something. They don't always correspond to a single road; for example, there's one in Ethelbert, from MB10A via Main St, Railway Ave, 2 St, and River Ave to MB279.

Offline julmac

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2018, 11:12:14 am »
How can you tell these roads are "part of the provincial system"? They don't have route numbers, either in the 1-399 primary routes or the 9xx province-maintained secondary routes.

They are included and shown the same as numbered provincial highways on the official road map. Prior to 1998, they were labelled separately as "Provincial Roads" (similar to the 900 series). They are the forest green coloured lines on the control section map we have been referencing.

This could be a situation similar to Manitoba. I'm not familiar with what exactly it is or how it works, but the Manitoba Land Initiative shapefiles include Provincial Trunk Highways, Provincial Roads, and "Access Roads", which have a ROAD_NO attribute of 600-something. They don't always correspond to a single road; for example, there's one in Ethelbert, from MB10A via Main St, Railway Ave, 2 St, and River Ave to MB279.

Also in Alberta, where they are called "Urban Approach Roads". Alberta also has a formalized network of "Park Approach Roads". Both of these systems are shown on the Hwy 1- 216 Progress Chart.

Offline julmac

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2018, 05:26:34 pm »
My notes for routes 11 through 20:

SK 11
-Route should start as Victoria Ave instead of Albert Street south. There is no signage for "SK 11" on any of the approaches south of Victoria Ave, except for the WB to NB ramp from Arcola Ave (SK 33), which technically should have a "TO" attached to it. This may change once the Regina Bypass fully opens.
-change WP 52 "SK663" --> "GrasswoodRd" (can't find any evidence of this ever being part of SK663)
-move route from Idylwyld Dr to Circle Drive. Both the north and south approaches are signed to Circle Dr:
https://goo.gl/maps/FmxbPQQCaJm
https://goo.gl/maps/5Km12yETHiy
-change WP70 "RR3052" --> "WanRd" (Wanuskewin Road)

SK13
-change WP26 "SouForkRd" --> "SK633"
-move WP34 "StuRd" 1 mile east to Admiral Access Rd and rename
-add WP @ Khedive Access Rd
-add WP @ SK600_S and change WP111 "SK600" --> "SK600_N"

SK14
-rename WP46 "CirDr" --> "SK11" in conjunction with SK11 changes
-rename WP48 "SK11" --> "IdylDr" in conjunction with SK11 changes

SK15
-move WP8 "Red Deer Rd" 1 mile east to Conquest Access Rd and rename
-change WP27 "SK20/744" --> "SK20_N"
-add WP @ Dielschneider Rd (Melville) (turn required)

SK17
-Should the segment north of AB14/SK40 also be included as SK17 (currently included in the canab system), since they are dual signed?

SK18
-add WP @ "1Ave" (Glentworth) (turn required)
-change WP67 "PopMineRd" --> "SK602"
-change WP98 "SK39A" --> "SK39/39A"
-change WP104 "RR2045" --> "SK604_S"
-change WP105 "SK604" --> "SK604_N"
-add WP @ "SK603_S" (Marconie Rd, Oxbow)
-add WP @ "SK603_N"
-change WP111 "RR2011" --> "SK601_S"
-add WP @ "SK601_N" (Glen Ewen)

SK20
-change WP20 "SK15/744" --> "SK15_W"
-add WP @ SK744
-add WP @ "QueenSt" (Nokomis) (turn required)
-add WP @ Tway Access Rd