Author Topic: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)  (Read 15100 times)

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Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2018, 06:57:07 pm »
Just two quick notes on SK 11, while I munch through the rest of your comments.


SK 11
-Route should start as Victoria Ave instead of Albert Street south. There is no signage for "SK 11" on any of the approaches south of Victoria Ave, except for the WB to NB ramp from Arcola Ave (SK 33), which technically should have a "TO" attached to it. This may change once the Regina Bypass fully opens.

Last I was there in summer 2016, I saw SK 11 signage on Ring Rd. all the way down to Albert St., which is what led me to add that part of Ring Rd. to SK 11.

One possible reason for that is once the Regina Bypass is complete, and if TCH 1 is moved to the bypass, that leaves part of Ring Rd. without a route number. Extending SK 11 to include that segment would be a logical way to deal with that, though I don't know whether there is any plan to do that.

Quote
-move route from Idylwyld Dr to Circle Drive. Both the north and south approaches are signed to Circle Dr:
https://goo.gl/maps/FmxbPQQCaJm
https://goo.gl/maps/5Km12yETHiy

The signage is really inconsistent, with signage from the south at the TCH 16 junction indicating that SK 11 goes both west and north on Circle Drive. As discussed above, we went to the shapefiles to cut through the thoroughly clusterforked route signage in Saskatoon, and concluded that SK 11 follows Idylwind Dr.

I'll dig into this later when I'm less busy, but that is why we moved SK 11 off the NE quadrant of Circle Dr. onto the SE quadrant and Idylwild Dr.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 08:25:51 pm by oscar »

Offline vdeane

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #61 on: May 05, 2018, 05:47:59 pm »
Last I was there in summer 2016, I saw SK 11 signage on Ring Rd. all the way down to Albert St., which is what led me to add that part of Ring Rd. to SK 11.

One possible reason for that is once the Regina Bypass is complete, and if TCH 1 is moved to the bypass, that leaves part of Ring Dr. without a route number. Extending SK 11 to include that segment would be a logical way to deal with that, though I don't know whether there is any plan to do that.
It would also leave part of TCH 1 unnumbered if it was rerouted... if they wanted to keep everything numbered, extending SK 46 through a short overlap would seem to be the easiest option.  It will be interesting to see what happens.

There's also the existing part of the ring road from Pasqua Street/9th Avenue North to SK 6/11 signed simply as "Ring Road", so they might just go without a number.

And, of course, none of this is made any easier since Saskatchewan seems to be allergic to using "TO" banners on signage.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #62 on: May 06, 2018, 01:04:36 am »
And, of course, none of this is made any easier since Saskatchewan seems to be allergic to using "TO" banners on signage.

"TO" banners are used often, though not consistently, to indicate implied multiplexes.

Offline julmac

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #63 on: May 06, 2018, 11:58:03 pm »
Quote
SK 11
-Route should start as Victoria Ave instead of Albert Street south. There is no signage for "SK 11" on any of the approaches south of Victoria Ave, except for the WB to NB ramp from Arcola Ave (SK 33), which technically should have a "TO" attached to it. This may change once the Regina Bypass fully opens.

Last I was there in summer 2016, I saw SK 11 signage on Ring Rd. all the way down to Albert St., which is what led me to add that part of Ring Rd. to SK 11.

Northbound true, nothing southbound. I don't mind leaving it as is for now until the Regina Bypass signage plays out.

Quote
Quote
-move route from Idylwyld Dr to Circle Drive. Both the north and south approaches are signed to Circle Dr:
https://goo.gl/maps/FmxbPQQCaJm
https://goo.gl/maps/5Km12yETHiy

The signage is really inconsistent, with signage from the south at the TCH 16 junction indicating that SK 11 goes both west and north on Circle Drive. As discussed above, we went to the shapefiles to cut through the thoroughly clusterforked route signage in Saskatoon, and concluded that SK 11 follows Idylwind Dr.

I'll dig into this later when I'm less busy, but that is why we moved SK 11 off the NE quadrant of Circle Dr. onto the SE quadrant and Idylwild Dr.

SK 11 was routed along Idylwyld until Circle Drive SW opened. Now SK 11 and TC 16 are both routed both ways around the circle. For travel mapping purposes it makes sense to retains TC 16 as the east/northeast leg, since that was its historical routing, and reroute SK 11 on the south/west leg. Idylwyld Drive will likely continue to be signed as SK 11/ TC 16 indefinitely (except for the aforementioned approaches), since it acts as the de-facto business route. This is the situation in Regina along both Albert Street and Victoria Avenue. There are several route shields for TC 1 and SK 6 along those roads, and this sign gantry at the junction: https://goo.gl/maps/8Lhg92XvsGC2

I would suggest that Idylwyld, Alberta St, and Victoria Ave all be added to cannf and that that system be renamed as "Select Freeways and Highway Connectors".

There's also the existing part of the ring road from Pasqua Street/9th Avenue North to SK 6/11 signed simply as "Ring Road", so they might just go without a number.

Yes, the intermediate interchanges refer only to "Ring Rd". The signage at the connecting ends is clear at least (it's SK 6/11). This stems from the fact that this section is controlled by the City, not the province.

Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2018, 02:59:33 pm »
Went through all of the 11-20 changes.

SK 11
-change WP 52 "SK663" --> "GraRd" (can't find any evidence of this ever being part of SK663)

...

-change WP70 "RR3052" --> "WanRd" (Wanuskewin Road)

Changes made to my local copy, to be pulled in later.

Quote
SK13
-change WP26 "SouForkRd" --> "SK633"
-move WP34 "StuRd" 1 mile east to Admiral Access Rd and rename
-add WP @ Khedive Access Rd
-add WP @ SK600_S and change WP111 "SK600" --> "SK600_N"

Changes made to my local copy. My enthusiasm for adding access roads is restrained, but for Admiral the access road replaces another waypoint I put in basically because OSM showed a name for that unimportant road; and for Khedive the access road is not too close to an existing waypoint.

Quote
SK14
-rename WP46 "CirDr" --> "SK11" in conjunction with SK11 changes
-rename WP48 "SK11" --> "IdylDr" in conjunction with SK11 changes

I'm puzzled by the first -- I thought the debate on SK 11 was whether it followed Idylwild Dr., or TCH 16 around the east side of Saskatoon; I didn't think there was any reliable indication SK 11 follows Circle Dr. west of Saskatoon.

Quote
SK15
-move WP8 "Red Deer Rd" 1 mile east to Conquest Access Rd and rename
-change WP27 "SK20/744" --> "SK20_N"
-add WP @ Dielschneider Rd (Melville) (turn required)

Changes made to my local copy. It helps on the access roads that MapArt's 2008 maps show the access roads, and that they are named as "___ Access Road", even though the names don't show up in OSM, GM, or GMSV.

Quote
SK17
-Should the segment north of AB14/SK40 also be included as SK17 (currently included in the canab system), since they are dual signed?

yakra, any thoughts? My inclination would be to not dual-designate, since that would mean more work for both of us if anything needs to be changed.

Quote
SK18
-add WP @ "1Ave" (Glentworth) (turn required)
-change WP67 "PopMineRd" --> "SK602"
-change WP98 "SK39A" --> "SK39/39A"
-change WP104 "RR2045" --> "SK604_S"
-change WP105 "SK604" --> "SK604_N"
-add WP @ "SK603_S" (Marconie Rd, Oxbow)
-add WP @ "SK603_N"
-change WP111 "RR2011" --> "SK601_S"
-add WP @ "SK601_N" (Glen Ewen)

Changes made to my local copy.

Quote
SK20
-change WP20 "SK15/744" --> "SK15_W"
-add WP @ SK744
-add WP @ "QueenSt" (Nokomis) (turn required)
-add WP @ Tway Access Rd

All added to my local copy. Tway Access Rd. is pretty borderline, with Tway's population only about 10, but it's not that far away from SK 20.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 02:11:50 pm by oscar »

Offline yakra

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2018, 11:40:25 pm »
Quote
SK14
-rename WP46 "CirDr" --> "SK11" in conjunction with SK11 changes
-rename WP48 "SK11" --> "IdylDr" in conjunction with SK11 changes

I'm puzzled by the first -- I thought the debate on SK 11 was whether it followed Idylwild Dr., or TCH 16 around the east side of Saskatoon; I didn't think there was any reliable indication SK 11 follows Circle Dr. west of Saskatoon.
There's a good deal of signage that I saw along the western leg when looking at the area during the CANNF discussion.
1 2 3 4 5
That the shapefiles have no number on the western leg may not be worth all that much. Having less first-hand in-depth experience with SK, I can't say where its shapefiles lie on the spectrum of "AB is mostly pretty solid, if quirky" to "MB has a lot of grossly outdated info"...

Quote
SK17
-Should the segment north of AB14/SK40 also be included as SK17 (currently included in the canab system), since they are dual signed?

yakra, any thoughts? My inclination would be to not dual-designate, since that would mean more work for both of us if anything needs to be changed.
I've always thought dual-designate here. The SK segments are in the SK shapefiles, and all the AB segments now in the HB are signed for both provinces where there's Street View.

Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #66 on: May 08, 2018, 03:00:09 pm »
Quote
SK17
-Should the segment north of AB14/SK40 also be included as SK17 (currently included in the canab system), since they are dual signed?

yakra, any thoughts? My inclination would be to not dual-designate, since that would mean more work for both of us if anything needs to be changed.
I've always thought dual-designate here. The SK segments are in the SK shapefiles, and all the AB segments now in the HB are signed for both provinces where there's Street View.

Would you dual-designate all five AB 17 segments (ab.ab017, sk.ab017san, ab.ab017rei, sk.ab017nsr, ab.ab017oni)? GMSV doesn't cover all the segments, but julmac is the one driver who's clinched all five segments.

Offline si404

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #67 on: May 08, 2018, 06:01:36 pm »
surely if the segments are part of both systems it doesn't make sense to only put them in one?

Offline yakra

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #68 on: May 19, 2018, 11:15:12 am »
Would you dual-designate all five AB 17 segments (ab.ab017, sk.ab017san, ab.ab017rei, sk.ab017nsr, ab.ab017oni)? GMSV doesn't cover all the segments, but julmac is the one driver who's clinched all five segments.
Yes.

Offline julmac

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #69 on: May 19, 2018, 01:59:50 pm »
Would you dual-designate all five AB 17 segments (ab.ab017, sk.ab017san, ab.ab017rei, sk.ab017nsr, ab.ab017oni)? GMSV doesn't cover all the segments, but julmac is the one driver who's clinched all five segments.
Yes.

Agreed, yes. By agreement established in the 1960s, Saskatchewan maintains all of Highway 17, even the sections outright inside Alberta. Costs are split 50/50 between the two provinces. It's dual signed throughout except for the most southern section (within Saskatchewan) which is SK17 only .

Offline julmac

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #70 on: May 19, 2018, 03:37:44 pm »
My notes for routes 21 through 30:

SK22
-this route should probably be broken into two segments with a gap between SK35 and SK10_E. Both of these points have "END" sings facing SK22, and there is no indication of SK22 or "TO" SK22 anywhere in between.

SK23
-convert SP10 into WP... this might be the actual location of "SK677", at least according to my 1994 Grid Road Map it is.
-add WP @ "SK776" (west of Bjorkdale)
-move WP31 "BirRd" one block north to "SK789" and rename

SK26
-add WP @ Metinota Access Road
-move WP14 "SK3_E" further north (minor re-alignment of the intersection was implemented recently)
-move WP23 "SK795_E" further north (minor re-alignment of the intersection was implemented recently)
-move WP25 "BacCorRd_N" further south (minor re-alignment of the intersection was implemented recently)
-add WP@ "SK779" (1/2 mile north of SK55)
-add WP @ Centre Ave (Goodsoil)
-add WP @ "SK224/954" (north of Goodsoil) and truncate route to here (adjust the south end of SK224 to here as well)
-remove WP44 "SK224/950" in conjunction with above

SK27
-adjust location of WP0 "SK41/784" further north (minor re-alignment of the intersection was implemented recently)

Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #71 on: May 25, 2018, 11:54:46 am »
SK22
-this route should probably be broken into two segments with a gap between SK35 and SK10_E. Both of these points have "END" sings facing SK22, and there is no indication of SK22 or "TO" SK22 anywhere in between.

I agree, even though OSM and Google maps show a concurrency. The End signs are the clincher, but also complicating an "implied concurrency" linking the two SK 22 segments is that the supposed concurrency is with two routes (SK 35 and SK 10), which makes it hard for travelers to get from one segment to the other with no help from signage or maps. I think mapcat has been not recognizing two-route "implied concurrencies" in Tennessee, and I broke up CA 193 (supposed concurrency with I-80 and CA 49) for similar reasons.

So I'll break up SK 22 into a western Southey segment and a longer eastern Esterhazy segment.

Quote
SK23
-convert SP10 into WP... this might be the actual location of "SK677", at least according to my 1994 Grid Road Map it is.
-add WP @ "SK776" (west of Bjorkdale)
-move WP31 "BirRd" one block north to "SK789" and rename

Changes added to my local copy. First one, with no GMSV coverage in that area, I can't confirm SK 677 is currently at that intersection rather than where I have it, though MapArt 2008 seems to match the old Grid Road Map. I'm leaving that alone, in favor of where OSM puts the intersection.

Quote
SK26
 
...

-move WP14 "SK3_E" further north (minor re-alignment of the intersection was implemented recently)
-move WP23 "SK795_E" further north (minor re-alignment of the intersection was implemented recently)
-move WP25 "BacCorRd_N" further south (minor re-alignment of the intersection was implemented recently)

The new alignments (one of which would also affect the SK 3 route file) are shown in Google Maps and its satellite imagery, but not OSM/Mapnik. It looks like Google's mapping is more up to date, but we can't grab coordinates from that commercial source. So I'd stick with existing waypoints from the open-source OSM/Mapnik data, unless and until it gets updated.

The HERE maps in the Highway Browser agree with Google on these intersections. However, I'm unsure whether it is a permissible source for coordinates, or rather uses Google data (it seems to often match Google mapping) and so would also be off-limits. Also, our existing waypoint editor doesn't let us grab coordinates directly from HERE, even if it is a permissible source.

Quote
SK26
-add WP @ Metinota Access Road

Since it isn't marked on online maps, and MapArt's 2008 atlas is not detailed enough to pinpoint the access road's location, I'd be only guessing where to put the waypoint for the access road. It might run from the second intersection south of 1StE in Meota, east to the second shaping point on SK 4 north of SK 26 (which could be changed to a labeled waypoint). EDIT: Point added in my local copy to SK 26 (replacing 1StE about .4 km to the north in Meota), and corresponding point on SK 4 (replacing shaping point), with help from the SK route log.

Quote
SK26
-add WP@ "SK779" (1/2 mile north of SK55)
-add WP @ Centre Ave (Goodsoil)
-add WP @ "SK224/954" (north of Goodsoil) and truncate route to here (adjust the south end of SK224 to here as well)
-remove WP44 "SK224/950" in conjunction with above

In my local copy. Good catch on the north end of SK 26/west end of SK 224, which disagrees with OSM but is supported by the official route log.

Quote
SK27
-adjust location of WP0 "SK41/784" further north (minor re-alignment of the intersection was implemented recently)

I'm dubious about this one. Google Maps shows the realignment, but not its satellite view, nor any other online mapping including HERE. Even if the intersection location changed in the field, we don't have open-source coordinates for the new location, so like some similar situations noted above for SK 26, I'm leaving this alone.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 02:35:47 pm by oscar »

Offline yakra

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2018, 12:02:25 pm »
Need any coordinates from shapefiles?

Offline oscar

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2018, 07:15:15 pm »
Need any coordinates from shapefiles?

Not yet. The instances discussed above, (a) there will be more of them, so let's wait; and (b) we have adequate coordinates from OSM already, inclined to just go with those and maybe OSM will fix any errors in the not-too-distant future.

I've finished my responses to julmac's comments through SK 30. The changes to my local copies will get pulled in later, once I have more time to get the hang of the new system to spot errors in pull requests.

Offline yakra

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Re: cansk: Saskatchewan Provincial Highways (1-399)
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2018, 11:43:14 pm »
Are you doing anything that would mean big changes, such as to CSVs?