Author Topic: NY: NY96 Truck in Candor  (Read 1681 times)

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Offline vespertine

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NY: NY96 Truck in Candor
« on: October 09, 2018, 06:11:01 pm »
There is a well signed NY96 Truck route in Candor. Northbound, it follows NY96B to Mill St, Mill St SB to end back at NY96.

(NB NY96Trk/NY96B)
(NB NY96Trk turn at Mill St)
(signage from SB NY96)

v.

Offline Duke87

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Re: NY: NY96 Truck in Candor
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2018, 07:38:10 pm »
You've inadvertently stumbled into what is perhaps the biggest open can of worms with the entire TravelMapping project.

The gist of it is thus: NYSDOT does not officially recognize the existence of truck routes. Where signage for them exists, it is always put up by a municipal or county government. So it is highly questionable that truck routes in NY actually count as state routes. There is generally no official source other than signage to go by for them. There is also no exhaustive list of them available - we know there are numerous truck routes in NY which we do not have mapped, but it is impossible to definitively determine how many or where they all are without physically searching the entire state.

See here and here for some more reading.

To date no consensus has been reached on whether to A) map any truck routes we can find, disregarding the fact that they are all unofficial and that our set of them will likely be incomplete, or B) delete the ones that were already mapped because none of them are official state touring routes. Because of this lack of consensus the system has been frozen as is for over two years, with no truck routes added or removed.


Offline yakra

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Re: NY: NY96 Truck in Candor
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2018, 08:23:26 pm »
I've added a link to this topic to my "Open threads & posts" post, in a new "NY Truck Routes" section, so I won't lose track of it. I don't otherwise see myself taking any action here in the near future.

Offline vdeane

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Re: NY: NY96 Truck in Candor
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2018, 08:32:29 pm »
You've inadvertently stumbled into what is perhaps the biggest open can of worms with the entire TravelMapping project.

The gist of it is thus: NYSDOT does not officially recognize the existence of truck routes. Where signage for them exists, it is always put up by a municipal or county government. So it is highly questionable that truck routes in NY actually count as state routes. There is generally no official source other than signage to go by for them. There is also no exhaustive list of them available - we know there are numerous truck routes in NY which we do not have mapped, but it is impossible to definitively determine how many or where they all are without physically searching the entire state.

See here and here for some more reading.

To date no consensus has been reached on whether to A) map any truck routes we can find, disregarding the fact that they are all unofficial and that our set of them will likely be incomplete, or B) delete the ones that were already mapped because none of them are official state touring routes. Because of this lack of consensus the system has been frozen as is for over two years, with no truck routes added or removed.


Sometimes the regions will mark/recognize truck routes... just not Main Office.  Of course, there's no inventory of them, they aren't maintained by NYSDOT, aren't considered part of the touring route system, aren't even consistently signed relative to each other (some say "Truck XX", others "Truck Route XX", and still more simply "Truck Route"), and I've heard regions refer to them incorrectly, too (most notably Region 9 referring to a "Truck NY 17C", even though said route is simply signed "Truck Route" with no route number).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Offline Markkos1992

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Re: NY: NY96 Truck in Candor
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2018, 09:03:16 pm »
You've inadvertently stumbled into what is perhaps the biggest open can of worms with the entire TravelMapping project.

The gist of it is thus: NYSDOT does not officially recognize the existence of truck routes. Where signage for them exists, it is always put up by a municipal or county government. So it is highly questionable that truck routes in NY actually count as state routes. There is generally no official source other than signage to go by for them. There is also no exhaustive list of them available - we know there are numerous truck routes in NY which we do not have mapped, but it is impossible to definitively determine how many or where they all are without physically searching the entire state.

See here and here for some more reading.

To date no consensus has been reached on whether to A) map any truck routes we can find, disregarding the fact that they are all unofficial and that our set of them will likely be incomplete, or B) delete the ones that were already mapped because none of them are official state touring routes. Because of this lack of consensus the system has been frozen as is for over two years, with no truck routes added or removed.


Sometimes the regions will mark/recognize truck routes... just not Main Office.  Of course, there's no inventory of them, they aren't maintained by NYSDOT, aren't considered part of the touring route system, aren't even consistently signed relative to each other (some say "Truck XX", others "Truck Route XX", and still more simply "Truck Route"), and I've heard regions refer to them incorrectly, too (most notably Region 9 referring to a "Truck NY 17C", even though said route is simply signed "Truck Route" with no route number).

The PA guy thinks, "I thought the existence of US 30 BUS ALT TRUCK, which should be put in the HB soon, in District 6 was bad enough".

Offline yakra

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Re: NY: NY96 Truck in Candor
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2018, 09:56:21 pm »
The PA guy thinks, "I thought the existence of US 30 BUS ALT TRUCK, which should be put in the HB soon, in District 6 was bad enough".

Wow, three banners! This may or may not pose a problem, depending on how it's implemented in the CSVs -- the Banner field is limited to 6 characters in the DB, IIRC. Which branch of your repo has the relevant usapa.csv in it? Got a link so we can have a look?

Offline Markkos1992

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Re: NY: NY96 Truck in Candor
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2018, 02:03:53 am »
The PA guy thinks, "I thought the existence of US 30 BUS ALT TRUCK, which should be put in the HB soon, in District 6 was bad enough".

Wow, three banners! This may or may not pose a problem, depending on how it's implemented in the CSVs -- the Banner field is limited to 6 characters in the DB, IIRC. Which branch of your repo has the relevant usapa.csv in it? Got a link so we can have a look?
https://github.com/Markkos1992/HighwayData/tree/PA  (PA branch)  I could get away with just US 30 BUS TRUCK in all seriousness.  Only District 6 adds the extra ALT label for whatever reason.

It won't be in there until I look at US 30 and US 30 BUS (Downingtown) though.

Offline yakra

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Re: NY: NY96 Truck in Candor
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2018, 02:40:01 pm »
Looks like the changes have not been made to the CSV yet. IMO US30 BUS TRK is a good solution.

Offline Markkos1992

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Re: NY: NY96 Truck in Candor
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2018, 04:02:55 pm »
Looks like the changes have not been made to the CSV yet. IMO US30 BUS TRK is a good solution.

That is correct.  They won't be until I actually create the route.

Offline cl94

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Re: NY: NY96 Truck in Candor
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2018, 07:22:49 pm »
AFAIK, the only NYSDOT-posted truck route is Truck US 6 in Orange County, which exists solely to bypass a section of US 6 concurrent with Long Mountain Parkway and Palisades Parkway. This is generally signed pretty well as a truck route and it happens to be the only truck route I can think of that is entirely on NYSDOT-maintained roads.

A key thing to note here is that this is not a touring route, but a US Route with the AASHTO-mandated alternate suitable for trucks.

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Offline Duke87

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Re: NY: NY96 Truck in Candor
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2018, 11:56:15 pm »
Who posted this shield on the NY 27 freeway? https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6575748,-73.9835109,3a,15y,153.36h,104.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1si7qPSng3nuysrSj6FdKCUg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The adjacent BGSes appear to be state spec and lack any NYCDOT markings. The shield is presumably of the same origin.

The responsibility of such signage is an odd divided responsibility in NYC though. This could conceivably be a replacement in kind of older city-installed signage, so its presence does not inherently undermine prior conclusions regarding truck routes.

Indeed, we know that NYC (and not NYS) is responsible for designating its own approved thru and local truck routes.

Offline yakra

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Re: NY: NY96 Truck in Candor
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2018, 12:34:26 pm »
I wondered about the shared/divided NYCDOT/NYSDOT responsibility too. I'm not too familiar with the nitty-gritty of how that works in the City, but I don't think this really has any bearing on the crux of the issue, as outlined by @Duke87 & @vdeane, starting at reply #1.

Offline vdeane

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Re: NY: NY96 Truck in Candor
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2018, 12:06:29 am »
Regarding NYCDOT/NYSDOT, the split is basically thus: NYCDOT handles everything a NYSDOT maintenance residency would handle everywhere else.

Regarding truck routes, I happened to hear our Regional Planning and Program Manager mention in conversation that NYSDOT doesn't normally get involved with truck routes.  Given that and the mention of Truck US 6, I also wonder about Truck NY 30, since that section of NY 30 has a legislative ban on trucks.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.