Author Topic: PA: I-376 Eastern End Truncation to Exit 85  (Read 532 times)

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Offline Markkos1992

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PA: I-376 Eastern End Truncation to Exit 85
« on: April 09, 2019, 06:01:26 pm »
This is partly inspired by yakra's response on I-587: http://forum.travelmapping.net/index.php?topic=2971.0.

After relooking at the east end of I-376, I am certain that it defaults onto US 22 instead of following the connector to the Turnpike.  (See the map on the VideoLog as the blue lines default onto US 22 and Exit 85 being for I-76/PA Turnpike)

Based on that, I am truncating I-376 to the 85 point.  I-76 will be an alternate label for that point.

Commit in PA Branch: https://github.com/Markkos1992/HighwayData/commit/59ac9adfdf26ba65d6d300cb80d0cf467c820f7f

Updates Entry: https://github.com/Markkos1992/HighwayData/commit/43f87ae7645027c801764ae96e290979c4e9c44e

« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 06:05:11 pm by Markkos1992 »

Offline Duke87

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Re: PA: I-376 Eastern End Truncation to Exit 85
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2019, 08:32:20 pm »
I'm not sure how much weight I would put on this.

Note that the interchanges where I-70 and I-76 enter or leave the turnpike are shown similarly...
- in New Stanton the map shows I-70 ending at the overpass of the turnpike mainline with the ramps being nothing.
- in Breezewood the map shows I-70 beginning at the intersection with US 30 with the ramps to the turnpike being nothing.
- in Valley Forge the map shows I-76 coming into existence at exit 327 with the remainder from there to the PA Tpk being nothing.

And we know, logically, that these interstates must continue across these segments the map does not show as part of them, or else they'd have gaps in existence.

The way I'd interpret this is that PennDOT is showing what they have inventoried as part of SR 0070, SR 0076, and SR 00376. This naturally does not include the ramps to the turnpike since PennDOT does not maintain them, PTC does. But that does not mean that said ramps are not part of the interstates in question (as far as FHWA is concerned) since I-376 ≠ SR 00376, and so forth.

To throw some more fuel on this fire, if we decide to keep the truncation of I-376 based on the video log map, I-176 and I-283 would also need revising since they, too, are shown ending at the last interchange before the turnpike.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 05:32:35 am by Markkos1992 »

Offline Markkos1992

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Re: PA: I-376 Eastern End Truncation to Exit 85
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2019, 05:40:50 am »
Quote
To throw some more fuel on this fire, if we decide to keep the truncation of I-376 based on the video log map, I-176 and I-283 would also need revising since they, too, are shown ending at the last interchange before the turnpike.

I understand the above points.  The difference here IMO is that I-176 and I-283 both do not have exit numbers for I-76 and that there is no double-trumpet-like scenario on either end.  I-376 having an Exit 85 for I-76 while not having an exit number for US 22 tells me that it truly ends merging onto US 22.

I did find an END sign for I-283 at PA 283 so there is that.  I purposedly did not pull request the change yet knowing that there could be comments on this.

Offline yakra

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Re: PA: I-376 Eastern End Truncation to Exit 85
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2019, 11:49:18 am »
I did find an END sign for I-283 at PA 283 so there is that.  I purposedly did not pull request the change yet knowing that there could be comments on this.

I agree both with Duke87's comments, and Markkos1992's response.

WRT I-376:
Looking at the RMSSEG_State_Roads shapefiles, I-376 is different from the New Stanton, Breezewood, and Valley Forge scenarios, as the Interstate designation (TRAF_RT_NO == "I") at the double trumpet or intersecting roadway, but continues along the ramps to/from US22. That works for me.

WRT I-283, Going off-topic here:
In the HB now, We have two similar situations to the "3-pronged" I/PA 283 junction in NY: I/NY 690 & 890.
690: MilepointRoute2015 shapefiles show a straight continuation of one route into the other, with nothing on the double trumpet. WB END signage is between the gores, after the trumpet ramp splits off, FWIW.
890: Shapefiles here are more indicative of the 3-pronged setup we have in the HB now. NY890 continues north from the ramp gore, while I-890 is shown separately, along the trumpet ramps, ending at the toll booth. The remaining trumpet connection westward to I-90 is just listed as Ramp, compare/contrast I-587. I didn't find an END sign in GMSV. We could also get down into the nitty-gritty of what the LGS reference markers have to say; I've not done that yet. Exit numbers continue to/from NY890, 1A to 1B. I'd not put muck stock in this myself, compared to PA examples here & elsewhere; one size does not fit all, NY & PA will do things differently, etc...

Offline Markkos1992

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Re: PA: I-376 Eastern End Truncation to Exit 85
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2019, 04:36:23 pm »
I currently am planning to move forward with I-376 and leave I-283 as-is.  In regards to I-283, the Dauphin County Type 10 map does show the blue freeway line being slightly south of PA 283 ending just north of the toll booth.

Offline dave1693

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Re: PA: I-376 Eastern End Truncation to Exit 85
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2019, 12:09:41 am »
WRT I-376:
Looking at the RMSSEG_State_Roads shapefiles, I-376 is different from the New Stanton, Breezewood, and Valley Forge scenarios, as the Interstate designation (TRAF_RT_NO == "I") at the double trumpet or intersecting roadway, but continues along the ramps to/from US22. That works for me.

GMSV makes it pretty clear. From US 22 WB, the main line of US 22 goes off to the right, whereas US 22 Business goes off to the left along with the exit for the Turnpike. There is a BGS for "WEST / I-376 US 22 / <arrow>" and almost immediately behind it is the first reassurance sign for "WEST / I-376 / US 22". The first mileage sign for I-376 occurs a bit further along on the right, just before the ramp from the Turnpike exit merges in on the left.

Things are a bit less clear going eastbound. The last mileage sign appears to be before exit 84A, and the last reassurance sign even further back than that. What I did find is a LWS just before the merge with US 22 Business, saying "SR 0376 / END SR". The route continues as SR 0022.

This all leads me to support ending I-376 at US 22 / US 22 Business. In a perfect world I'd move that waypoint east as well, to where US 22 Business actually ends just east of the Turnpike ramp overpass.

Offline Markkos1992

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Re: PA: I-376 Eastern End Truncation to Exit 85
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2019, 06:59:47 am »
Quote
This all leads me to support ending I-376 at US 22 / US 22 Business. In a perfect world I'd move that waypoint east as well, to where US 22 Business actually ends just east of the Turnpike ramp overpass.

IMO this is a situation that would make things too confusing to create an exception to the "one point per interchange" rule.  It truly is still one interchange between I-376, US 22, US 22 BUS, and the connector road to I-76/PA Turnpike.

Offline yakra

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Re: PA: I-376 Eastern End Truncation to Exit 85
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2019, 11:40:01 am »
Agreed, this is a 1PPI scenario. Generally, we put the point where centerlines cross, or where the roads would intersect if they were both at-grade. 376/22/22Bus location is fine as-is.

Offline Markkos1992

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