Author Topic: OR road trip field notes  (Read 264 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bickendan

  • TM Collaborator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 290
  • Last Login:Yesterday at 12:59:51 am
OR road trip field notes
« on: July 06, 2019, 06:58:38 pm »

Notes: 99 is signed for Oakland, Wilbur, Winchester, Sutherlin, Roseburg, and the Winston loop. Reassurance signs don't appear til Sutherlin, and that's only when 99 turns off a street onto a new one. Through Roseburg and Winston, 99's signed fairly well.
OSM suggests there's a Spur 138 in Sutherlin. No signage on the groud for it.
42 has a decent sized Super-2 trumpet interchange with 542. However, 542 is not signed at all. Interestingly, a business along Powers Highway has a fading address for Highway 242, 542's ORH number.
No evidence of 42B in Coquille existing anymore. Also, outside of short two lane section between 42S and US 101, 42 is 4-lane from Myrtle Point to US 101, about 20 miles. Don't remember this from the school bus clinch back in 5th grade. Several mileage resync signs along 42.
241 is signed from US 101. After that, no signage along the route save ODOT maintence ends and begins signs between the first and second bridges on the route. Technically, this makes 241 discontinous, but with 99 being routed over county routes through Douglas County, it doesn't affect us. No end sign at the state parks.
GMSV shows 540 being signed; unintentionally clinched this back in 5th grade, so I didn't reclinch on this trip.
250 is not signed. Only evidence is an end maintence sign reading MP 3.13 Cape Blanco Highway 250.
255 is not signed. Mile posts start at 344, where it splits off from US 101 south of Cape Sebastian, and go to 362 where it rejoins near Brookings. 101's mile post is 355 at that point.
260 is signed, and directional markers appear where it changes roads. Signage disappears as you enter Grants Pass, however.
140's western end is signed from White City, making it easy to follow from the Lake of the Woods Hwy onto Agate Rd and G St. However, signage disappears after that, and I-5 doesn't mention 140.
The old OR 62 alignment is marked as 'Business Route'. Unclear if that means it's an intended 62B.
238's realignment from downtown Medford on Main St and 8th Ave onto Rossannly Dr at the 62/99 junction is well signed. Previously clinched back when it was local streets.
273 is suprisingly signed... with only one marker at the 66 end.
There are no Hist US 99 assemblies.

And the ambiguous one is 99 between Central Point and Gold Hill. All sources seem to indicate that 99 follows I-5 between exits 35 and 40, but signage at the end of the ramp of 40 shows a 'To 99/234 right arrow' assembly instead of a 'North 99/To 234 right arrow' assembly, and the intersection of Blackwell Rd shows a 'To 234 left arrow/99 both directions' assembly, suggesting 99 stays off I-5 from exit 11 to exit 58.

To do: ·138S - not currently in browser. Email ODOT but do nothing in meantime.
·542 - Email ODOT about signing intentions otherwise prep to pull from browser and add to ORH set as 242.
·241 - Email ODOT about signing END assemblys for clarification; nothing needed for TM
·250 - Email ODOT about signing intentions, truncate from the lighthouse to MP 3.13, otherwise prep to pull from brower and add to ORH set as 250.
·255 - Prep to pull from set and add to ORH set as 255.
·260 - Email ODOT about signing intentions in Grants Pass for clarity.
·273 - Email ODOT about adding shield to advance signage on 66, and shields at exits 1 and 6 at I-5.
·140 - Email ODOT about adding signage from I-5/OR 99.
·99 - Email ODOT about whether routing is along I-5 or along Blackwell Rd, and about off-freeway signage through Canyonville, Tri City-Myrtle Creek, Sutherlin-Oakland, and Yoncalla-Drain, as well as reassurance markers on I-5 akin to OR 138 and OR 99E.
·Hist US 99 - Email ODOT if this is something they're involved with; if not, delete from browser.
·104S, 105 (OR 104-US 101 segment), 153, 154, 155 (OR 233-OR segment), 360, 372, 450 - Email ODOT about signing intentions.
While I'm at it:
·US 30 - Email ODOT if it's intended that US 30 follows Hist US 30 through the Gorge, and if so, do they intend to petition AASHTO (does not affect Rowena segment)? Better signage needed through Rose Quarter (ie, reassurance shields).
·US 26 - Email ODOT about better signage through the Ross Island Maze.

Offline Bickendan

  • TM Collaborator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 290
  • Last Login:Yesterday at 12:59:51 am
Re: OR road trip field notes
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2019, 12:09:47 am »
Email to ODOT:
My name is Christopher and I am a contributer to Travel Mapping (http://travelmapping.net), formerly Clinched Highways Mapping, allowing users to map their travels along highways across the world via a submitted text document. My focus as a contributor is on Oregon's Routes. Our policy is to omit non-signed highways whenever possible, and as such, I have a few questions based on a recent trip in which I was able to field check our data.

Beginning with Route 99, specifically its segments deviating away from I-5 in Douglas County (Drain-Yoncalla, Oakland-Sutherlin, Myrtle Creek-Tri City, and Canyonville to be specific, and possibly Wolf Creek), Route 99 is fairly well signed as leaving I-5, but once off the freeway, signage is nearly non-existent. I understand that these roadways are no longer under ODOT maintenance, but under County or city control; with that said, is there any intention to establish reassurance signs to aid motorists or post directional route markers at intersections like along Route 380 between Prineville and Paulina? I note that signage along Route 99 from Sutherlin to Winston is relatively well signed.
Is the road through Wolf Creek part of Route 99? It's the only former US 99 portion from I-5 that is not signed from the freeway.
Regarding the Myrtle Creek-Tri City portion specifically, some of our contributors found information that this segment was intended to be signed as Historic US 99, like Historic US 30 is through the Gorge and along Rowean Crest. Is this the case? There is no in field signage showing this.
Finally, there is some confusing signage for Route 99/HWY 486  in Gold Hill near exit 40 on I-5. Is Route 99 intended to join I-5 at exit 40 from Gold Hill or continue along Blackwell Road and meet with I-5 and Route 140 at exit 35? I'll note there is no signage for Route 140 at exit 35, while the western extension from Route 62 in White City is signed.
Route 99W's northern terminus is unclear: Does it end at I-5 at exit 294 just past Tigard, or does it follow SW Barbur Blvd, SW/NW Naito Parkway, NW Everett St, NW 3rd Ave, NW Glisan St, the Steel Bridge, N Interstate Ave, and N Denver Ave to I-5 at exit 306? Judging by ODOT maps, while the City of Portland maintains most of this corridor, ODOT retains maintanence of several pieces, notably around the Steel Bridge, and Denver Ave near Delta Park, marked as HWY 1W. Related: What is the HWY designation for Routes 99E, 99W, and US 30 west of Portland? I see sources showing HWY 1E, 1W, 2, respectively, as well as 91, 92, and I'm unclear on the third.

US 26 through or around downtown Portland is ambigious once a driver leaves the Ross Island Bridge headed west or I-405 headed east. Does US 26 officially follow SW Broadway, 5th Ave, Sheridan St, 3rd Ave, Arthur St, and Kelly Ave, instead of the HWY 47 routing down SW Market and Clay Streets to Naito Parkway? If so, does ODOT have any intention of petitioning AASHTO, as I can't find any documentation of the change?

Route 104S/HWY 485 near Warrenton is unsigned. Is this intentional?
Route 105/HWY 105 between Route 104 and US 101 is unsigned. Is this intentional?
Route 361/HWY 361 Culver Highway is unsigned from US 97. I have not traveled the route itself to ascertain whether signs are present on the route itself, however. Is this intentional?
Route 370/HWY 370 O'Neill Highway is unsigned. Is this intentional?
Business Route 42 in Coquille has no evidence of signage. Was this route decommissioned and turned back to Coquille?
Route 542/HWY 242 is unsigned. This one is puzzling consider the 'Super-2' trumpet interchange with Route 42, Route 542 being the access to the city of Powers, and a business showing an address of 'Highway 242' on its fading sign; also puzzling since Route 501 off of Route 34 is signed.
Route 241 has no clear indication of its eastern terminus; I had to rely on mileposts to know I was still on the Route after Allegany.
Route 250/HWY 250 is not signed; the only indication of the route was an END ODOT MAINTENANCE HWY 250 sign at MP 3.17 at the perimeter of Cape Blanco State Park. Is this intentional?
Route 255/HWY 255 Carpenter Highway has no signage. The only indication are US 101's former mileposts (MP 344-372). Is this intended?
Route 273/HWY 273 Syskiyou Highway has only one Route 273 shield, just beyond Route 66. There is no advance signage from Route 66, and none whatsover from either interchange with I-5. Are there plans to erect more Route 273 shields?
I did not note any Route 260 signage in Grants Pass itself. Is this intended?
While this was in 2016 when I drove through the area, at the time, Route 451/HWY 451 was not signed. Is this still the case?
Finally, OpenStreetMap indicates a Spur Route 138 in Sutherlin between I-5 and Route 99; there is no indication of any route along Central Avenue. Is this intended to be Route 138S; if not, is it a part of HWY 231?

It is my impression that the OTC and ODOT decided to sign all the Highways as Routes in 2002; if it is intended that the currently unsigned Routes will not be, I will be pulling them from the TravelMapping database. However, I am reticent in removing them completely and would prefer to maintain an Oregon Highways dataset alongside the Oregon Routes set, should any member of ODOT elect to track their own travels. I believe that Route 542 should be signed, and Route 273, since it does have signage, be better signed. In the case of Historic US 99, if cost of signage were not an issue, would ODOT be open to petitioning AASHTO to restore Route 99, 99E, and 99E as US 99, 99E, and 99W, either as full US Routes or as Historic US routes? And does ODOT have any intentions of signing routings for the US Bicycle Route system?

I realize that this is a long list of questions. I appreciate the time taken to research and answer them, as I hope they will increase the fidelity of TravelMapping's dataset, and I invite and encourage any employee of ODOT reading this and researching the answers to participate with the site to track their own travels.

Sincerely and with thanks,

Christopher Steig

Offline Bickendan

  • TM Collaborator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 290
  • Last Login:Yesterday at 12:59:51 am
Re: OR road trip field notes
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2019, 11:27:29 pm »
I received a reply and there's quite a bit to digest. The immediate takeaway is the ODOT employee thinks it'd be bad for the non-signed routes to be removed from TM, lending support to the idea of an ORH system.
I'll post the entirety of her reply when I'm at my laptop.

Offline Bickendan

  • TM Collaborator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 290
  • Last Login:Yesterday at 12:59:51 am
Re: OR road trip field notes
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2019, 04:52:26 am »
Quote from: Marie Kennedy, ODOT
Hi Christopher-

 

Thank you for your inquiry on Oregon Routes and highways and the signs.    I will be able to answer most of your questions, but I have a feeling some of the answers are not what you are hoping for.

 

First let me say that I was in the pavements unit at ODOT for a while, and I had to travel about 90% of ODOT owned roads looking at the pavement.  So I definitely feel the pain about not having great signs and the confusion of the routes we own.  From my answers below, you will start to realize it is even more confusing than you can imagine.  I am glad you did not mention mile points…That would be a whole other discussion.

 

Also when we turn over a road to a local jurisdiction it is completely up to them to keep the signs and the numbering system.   Some at ODOT would probably prefer that they didn’t, as it leads to confusion for the public on who owns them.   We at Traffic HQ get phone calls about once a day for questions about roads we don’t own.

 

One last thought before diving into my more specific answers…

We try to keep signs down to a minimum.    Even though these decisions were made long before I got here, I am sure that was part of what was on the engineers’ mind when the decisions were made.

 

See answers below
Quote from: me
My name is Christopher and I am a contributer to Travel Mapping (http://travelmapping.net), formerly Clinched Highways Mapping, allowing users to map their travels along highways across the world via a submitted text document. My focus as a contributor is on Oregon's Routes. Our policy is to omit non-signed highways whenever possible, and as such, I have a few questions based on a recent trip in which I was able to field check our data.
(Bolding hers)
Quote from: Marie Kennedy
Omitting non-signed highways may be a mistake in Oregon.    ODOT owned highways have always had names like Jacksonville Hwy, but they didn’t always have numbers.   I believe about 20 years ago (it may be the 2002 year you referenced below) ODOT decided to number all the highways they owned.  Before this some were numbered, but a lot were not.   This act alone caused great distress to our maintenance crews as they were worried about the large amount of work and costs required to post route shields for all these routes.   A deal was struck that even though the routes would get numbers, they wouldn’t be required to have their route shields placed on the highways.   It had worked up until that point so it was not seen as problem.   Since I have had this job in three years, this is the second time it has come up and the first time someone outside of ODOT has mentioned it.  This would make remedying the problem lower on our priority list, especially considering the cost.
Re: OR 99
Quote
OR 99 is an interesting case, as it was the precursor to I-5.   We would not sign small portions of OR 99, especially ones we don’t own, as we wouldn’t want the public to think of it as a major route when it deviates from I-5.   The case in Wolf creek, it is no longer owned by ODOT, and for the most part, we would not really consider it OR 99 except for historic reasons.  Hence, someone made the decision that it wasn’t worth signing for.

By Sutherlin, the route, although not owned by ODOT, is much longer.  Someone made the decision to either leave the signs or install new ones.    This would be up to the local jurisdiction.

We would probably sign to get off of I-5 to any route if it is a major route and/or if the local jurisdiction really wanted it.  Having the route symbols implies that ODOT does own it, which we are not huge fans of, since then we get all the calls and such.

One thing to mention, on the freeway we are only allowed to sign for four destinations per exit.   Although route shields are not considered part of the four destinations, we try to limit the number of what we sign for on the freeway, usually only putting major routes on there.
Re: Hist US 99 Myrtle Creek
Quote
Oregon has  ORS 377.100 and ORS 377.105 that states that the OTC must approve historic routes.    Right now this is only US 30 in the gorge.   I don’t think we will be doing more anytime soon, but I recently got asked about this too, and our historians at ODOT didn’t even know about this requirement, and thought it was interesting and maybe something they would like to change.  However, it would need to be approved by Oregon legislature to change it.
OR 99 and 140 near Gold Hill and Central Point:
Quote
Route 140 where it ends on I-5 wasn’t originally owned by us.  It was actually just recently transfer to us.  This time we got it from a local jurisdiction.    Currently there isn’t enough room on the signs to add a 140 route shield.    Signs on the freeway are very expensive (upwards of $35,000), so it would probably take a lot to add that to the sign.
OR 99W in Portland:
Quote
This one is especially difficult.  I had to try to figure this out when in pavements.   This is a great example of where ODOT did own the whole route at one time.  I don’t know if the original route really even exists anymore.   We have slowly given over sections of 99W to the city of Portland and Multnomah county.  I do know we own 99W to I-405 and then again at Delta Park.  I would say this is the end.  But where it use to go and what it is now in downtown Portland is virtually non-existent.
ORH numbers for US 30, OR 99E, 99W:
Quote
It does look like you know about secret highway numbers ODOT has, all ODOT highways have a route number and an associate (secret) highway number.

So OR 99E = hwy 01E (as named by the commission - OTC) but some of our databases don’t allow numbers, so in some databases we use 081.  I have petitions for years to have it be changed to just the number, but was told that it would have to go through OTC and that would probably not happen.
OR 99W = hwy 01W and also 091
US 30 = hwy 02W and also 092
I-84 = hwy 002 and 006 past Pendleton

It is extra confusing.
US 26 through/around downtown Portland:
Quote
Us 26 on the west side of Portland basically ends at the bridge, and then is considered part of I-405 and then starts again west of I-405.
The noted unsigned routes:
Quote
So I believe all these routes were intentionally not signed.

Quote from: me
It is my impression that the OTC and ODOT decided to sign all the Highways as Routes in 2002; if it is intended that the currently unsigned Routes will not be, I will be pulling them from the TravelMapping database.
Quote from: Marie Kennedy
(I believe this is when we decided to just give them numbers, not signs)
Quote from: me
However, I am reticent in removing them completely and would prefer to maintain an Oregon Highways dataset alongside the Oregon Routes set, should any member of ODOT elect to track their own travels. I believe that Route 542 should be signed, and Route 273, since it does have signage, be better signed. In the case of Historic US 99, if cost of signage were not an issue, would ODOT be open to petitioning AASHTO to restore Route 99, 99E, and 99E as US 99, 99E, and 99W, either as full US Routes or as Historic US routes?
Quote from: Marie Kennedy
Maybe, again, it would have to go through the commission.  There aren’t really a lot of champions of this idea.
Quote from: me
And does ODOT have any intentions of signing routings for the US Bicycle Route system?
Quote from: Marie Kennedy
We have been asked and are looking into it.  Some local agencies really want us to (good for tourism).   I am unsure where we are on that decision. I went to a meeting about a year ago from an US Bicycle Route champion asking us to do it.  It would be up to our Multi-modal people to make the final decision.

One thing I want you to be aware of is our Map on line:
https://gis.odot.state.or.us/transgis/
If you go to the layer catalog, and click on Road Network and then click the highway network and click apply you can see all the routes we own, or parts of them (check out the 10 blocks we own on OR 10 in west Beaverton).
I usually use the blue “i” icon on the upper left and then I can find information on all the highways by clicking on them.  That will help you answer some more of your questions about the specific routes that I glossed over.

I hope that helps with most of your questions.  I am not able to answer the specifics that much, and as for the history, I am sure that some of it has just been lost.    I always say if I won the lottery I would set up a trust fund that would give ODOT money to have a better hwy and MP system (no secret numbers).   Keep wishing I get some lucky numbers : ).  I believe the cost and then the data we now have associated with it is just too much of an unsurmountable goal for us to change.

Offline Bickendan

  • TM Collaborator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 290
  • Last Login:Yesterday at 12:59:51 am
Re: OR road trip field notes
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2019, 07:16:46 pm »
OR(H) 452 does not begin at OR 201 and cross the Snake River... turns out, according to the bridge inventory tags, it's unsigned OR 201S/ORH 450. OR 201S/ORH 450 ends and OR(H) 452 and 453 begin at the T intersection of Roswell Road and Big Bend Road.
or.or452 will need to be truncated along Roswell Rd from OR 201 to Big Bend Rd.
or.or201s (Spur Adrian) will need to be created along Roswell Rd from OR 201 to Big Bend Rd.
or.orh450 will need to be created along Roswell Rd from OR 201 to Big Bend Rd.
--For the moment, I'm going to let this one sit. Checking the ODOT GIS, they have it flagged as OR 452/ORH 489(!). I'm inclined to go by what's posted in the field on the bridge tag itself, however.
The segment of OR(H) 454 that runs on Stateline Road will need a corresponding id.or454 and eventually also id.orh454

OR 37 in Pendleton is an absolute mess. It's not signed from US 395 or I-84, or anywhere within the City of Pendleton. ORH 28 (Pendleton-John Day Hwy, of which is US 395 south of I-84) goes northeast into downtown Pendleton along Frazer and Emigrant Aves to 10th St under the OR 11 overcrossing. OR 37, as routed in GIS, follows ORH 28 from I-84 to 17th St, 17th St to Court St, takes a right, then a physically impossible left onto US 30 (and it's also a forbidden right turn going the other way).
Browser has OR 37 taking 20th, then left on Court around to US 30, as that's the only physical way to connect from I-84 to the OR 37 mainline per the official routing (it should be 17th, not 20th).
How should this be approached?

Offline Bickendan

  • TM Collaborator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 290
  • Last Login:Yesterday at 12:59:51 am
Re: OR road trip field notes
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2019, 07:23:10 pm »
OR 52's a EW route, not NS. Points need to be reversed, and ID/OR flipped to OR/ID.