Author Topic: gbnb: Great Britain B Roads  (Read 2390 times)

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Offline michih

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Re: gbnb: Great Britain B Roads
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2020, 04:14:01 am »
probably not worth encoding in the manual...

I think that exactly these exceptions and interpretations should be listed in the manual ONCE. Instead of discussing it again and again and again and again on the forum. I'm sick of this discussion (although I usually don't follow it in detail)

That's why I've suggested color-coded MUST, SHOULD and COULD rules (I don't find where I've suggested it :().

Offline yakra

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Re: gbnb: Great Britain B Roads
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2020, 11:33:22 am »
There's a practically unlimited amount of minutia to obsess over. If we put everything in it, it would balloon out to the point of unreadable and unmanageable density.

Offline michih

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Re: gbnb: Great Britain B Roads
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2020, 11:47:29 am »
B1351:
Route is not shown on OSM nor GM, please check!
Move B1383 to the center of the roundabout


B1352:
Move A137 to the center of the roundabout
TheWal is off and OSM indicates the intersecting route being B1352 too, please check!
+X628919 is off
PriLn is off
A120_E is off


B1354:
HoltRd is off


B1354Col:
Move A1062/A1151 between the two roundabouts


B1357:
A17 is off


B1363:
A1036 -> A19/A1036


B1366:
A174 is off


B1368:
A10_N is off
WhiRd is off
FowRd is off
Split A505 into two wps
RoyRd is off
HighSt -> BunRd_S


B1380:
A1044 is off


B1382:
A1101 is off


B1383:
Move A1184 to the center of the roundabout


B1384:
A12 -> A12/A1117


B1385:
Move A47/A1117 to the center of the roundabout


B1394:
A17 should be @ http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.982091&lon=-0.275667


B1395:
FerLn -> FryLn

Offline michih

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Re: gbnb: Great Britain B Roads
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2020, 04:16:42 pm »
B1403:
TownSt -> TownSt_N


B1404:
Move A19 to the overpass


B1405:
A690 is off


B1411:
TheHyt is off
Check route in Ely. if OSM is right, B1382 must be moved


B1415:
Does it exist? It's not indicated on OSM nor GM


B1416:
A174 is off


B1417:
A120 felt down off the bridge


B1420:
A1014 is off


B1426:
New wp @ http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.951213&lon=-1.562204 for A184's StoLn


B1428:
Move GtNorRd_N to the center of the roundabout


B1429:
All wps are off!


B1430:
A1077_S is off
A1077_N is off
NorHall -> NorRd_N we should stay with road names


B1433:
New wp @ http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.402032&lon=-0.770915


B1434:
BriRd_S -> BriRd


B1435:
B1062_E is off, see satellite layer


B1436:
Move A148 to the center of the roundabout
Split A140 into two wps!


B1437:
A12_S should be at the junction east of the roundabout


B1430:
A1077 should get a suffix


B1440:
LynnRd -> StaRd (OSM and GM have different names for the road to the south)


B1443:
LinRd -> LinRd_N


B1447:
A171 is off


B1449:
A52 is off

Offline michih

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Re: gbnb: Great Britain B Roads
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2020, 10:19:03 am »
B1454:
A148 is off
A149 is off


B1456:
Move A137 to the center of the roundabout
PinMillRd -> PinRd, it's one word
EdwVIIDr -> QueVicDr according to OSM and GM from zoom level 19 :)


B1458:
A1156 is off


B1460:
A171 is off due to a new roundabout


B1464:
Move A13/A176 to the overpass


B1501:
A159 is off


B1502:
Are you sure that we need A10 Great Amwell (spur)? It's just A141 on OSM and GM.
A10/A414_E -> A414/A1170 ?
A10/A414_W -> A10/A414 ?


B1505:
ToA188 -> BenLn
ToA192 -> HorRd_S
A186 -> A186/A191


B1508:
Exceeds limits b/n StaHill and +X548127
New wp @ http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.906802&lon=0.874679 for A133's A12 wp


B1514:
BucRd -> B1514 branch according to OSM and GM, or ChuRd/ChuLn ?
B1043 -> B1044


B1519:
A183 -> A183_W


B1522:
OceRd -> B1522 branch according to OSM, GM and GSV ?


B1524:
Move B1166 to the center of the roundabout


B1527:
A140 is off due to the new roundabout
OxmLn is simply off
OxmLn -> OxnLn



31.55% of the routes in England done!

Online si404

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Re: gbnb: Great Britain B Roads
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2020, 10:49:13 am »
B1502:
Are you sure that we need A10 Great Amwell (spur)? It's just A141 on OSM and GM.
A10/A414_E -> A414/A1170 ?
A10/A414_W -> A10/A414 ?
We don't need it (especially as it's concurrent with the A414), but it's not only officially a spur of the A10, but signed as A10 heading away from the mainline (unlike the A10 spur just to the south which I would much prefer was the signed spur instead, which is signed as '(A1170)' heading away from the A10), and therefore I think we should definitely have it.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2020, 10:53:11 am by si404 »

Online si404

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Re: gbnb: Great Britain B Roads
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2020, 12:49:25 pm »
B1522:
OceRd -> B1522 branch according to OSM, GM and GSV ?
As I've already said, the only one that matters for spurs is GSV (hence why I've not added spurs wrt comments about OSM and GM showing them). However, in this case, the road numbers swapped about a decade ago, and signage on the old A1018 wasn't updated - what the sign is signing is not a spur of the B1522, but the former routing that is now the A1018.

Incidentally, OSM actually has (most of, at least) Ocean Road as B1405, which is what the Ordnance Survey has it as what seems like a deliberate mistake to check for copying.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2020, 12:52:47 pm by si404 »

Offline panda80

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Re: gbnb: Great Britain B Roads
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2020, 04:33:30 am »
Let's make a break a break with England and go to Wales.

WLS B4242
OSM and GM indicate a branch between ToA465 and A465.


WLS B4246
OSM and GM indicate a branch between Gov and A465 through Govilon.

WLS B4251
OSM and GM indicate a branch between ComSt and A4048.

WLS B4252
OSM and GM indicate the section between B4254_W and A4049 as A469 (seems to be a branch of it).


WLS B4257
OSM and GM indicate a branch between QueCre and A469.

WLS B4263
Add a WP for B4623 and add B4623 to HB.

WLS B4275
OSM and GM indicate a branch between A4059_Pon and A4059.

WLS B4278Por
Add a WP in Porth


WLS B4285
Check routing in Aberfan.

WLS B4287
Rename B4334 to B4434.


WLS B4290
M4 is off

Done until B4300.

Online si404

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Re: gbnb: Great Britain B Roads
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2020, 05:36:17 am »
WLS B4242
OSM and GM indicate a branch between ToA465 and A465.


WLS B4246
OSM and GM indicate a branch between Gov and A465 through Govilon.

WLS B4251
OSM and GM indicate a branch between ComSt and A4048.

WLS B4252
OSM and GM indicate the section between B4254_W and A4049 as A469 (seems to be a branch of it).


WLS B4257
OSM and GM indicate a branch between QueCre and A469.

WLS B4263
Add a WP for B4623 and add B4623 to HB. <or "OSM and GM indicate a branch heading north out of Caerphilly">

WLS B4275
OSM and GM indicate a branch between A4059_Pon and A4059.
None of these branches (including the A469) are, however, signed, and thus are not eligible for inclusion. The B4251 spurs seem to have lost class 2 status, making OSM and GM even more misleading!

I did add a point on the B4263 for the route heading north out of Caerphilly, and make some tweaks to some of the above routes.

Quote
WLS B4285
Check routing in Aberfan.
New bypass opened, rerouted.


Online si404

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Re: gbnb: Great Britain B Roads
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2020, 08:28:39 am »
Most of them are clearly signed:
A469: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6727839,-3.218459,3a,75y,201h,73.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIcs0KjDgZ1YGXF4lWN9Mjw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

B4242:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7354537,-3.6461222,3a,75y,66.66h,90.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKqpr1fX1qC9IlkVz_XY6sw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

B4246:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.8235274,-3.0912766,3a,75y,77.33h,84.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBRDhG5BZgBcWC2rWiTIslA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

B4251:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6787011,-3.1382943,3a,75y,332.53h,87.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxt6Q3bwtVlnmYe4ofZ5NaA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

B4257:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7677895,-3.2952615,3a,75y,112.28h,74.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6wzGrfQa8DWzdLdPEd4ErQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
All signed towards the mainline, and the B4521 one you've put at a junction at the end of the route in the browser, not the route you want added as a branch, so it's not only towards the mainline, but is signing the actual mainline.

These are also often the only sign, despite many of these branches TOTSOing and so work as just a vague "this way to that road" sign (eg B4257). Add in that many of the routes of these branches are now traffic calmed, and perhaps with through traffic dissuaded (one that michih suggested adding recently), and it strikes me that they are effectively outdated/erroneous signs. Others (eg B4242) are a link road with no intermediate junctions - and if we add them, we need to add the M5 trumpet sliproads at junction 22 as its signed as M5 towards the M5 - and probably twice given it's signed as part of the A38 off the M5 mainline!

I do not believe that a unbracketed route number on a sign is adequate evidence of a road being inherently part of that route. For instance the road between the A465/A4143 junction and the B4246/B4269 junction is signed southbound as B4246 (which is the correct number), and northbound as A4143, the latter being not true, though if you go that way you will inevitably end up on a bit of road designated A4143. And here we have a sign for the A4059 on a road (that you missed) marked by OSM and GM as a branch of the B4275, but the other end has no number - what is that? I'd say it's a link road, not a branch of either road.

I'm not going add what is probably 2000 routes (you suggested 7 off about 50 routes, and you only mentioned about half such branches off those roads!), mostly poorly (and even incorrectly) signed and many of which are mapping errors, without quite a lot of justification. Spurs in the UK have to be signed, and signed heading away from the mainline otherwise we enter madness.


I should point out that I went to a lot of effort to work out whether to add most of these specific branches when drafting the system. I'm not going to take "OSM and GM show it" as anything serious - and expressed such in the last message before this Wales review (thank you, by the way - it's much appreciated). I'm going to need some evidence it should be included beyond unreliable mapping sources, otherwise I'll just ignore it from now on.

Edit: adding the A469 branch as there is actually a sign pointing away from the mainline with that number on: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6705061,-3.2238246,3a,75y,78.59h,80.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMDAv5x5k6zFbW-7wLhY4QA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 08:52:27 am by si404 »

Offline michih

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Re: gbnb: Great Britain B Roads
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2020, 02:35:59 pm »
I do not believe that a unbracketed route number on a sign is adequate evidence of a road being inherently part of that route.

Yep, we saw last fall that that unbracket numbers are not an evidence. There are more incorrect unbracket road numbers in UK than expected.

I should point out that I went to a lot of effort to work out whether to add most of these specific branches when drafting the system. I'm not going to take "OSM and GM show it" as anything serious

Is Wales so bad? I think that England is not that bad. What's about Scotland?

I'm going to need some evidence it should be included beyond unreliable mapping sources, otherwise I'll just ignore it from now on.

I think it's better to report when maps show different routes so that you can check - e.g. in case of newly opened bypasses etc. - than ignoring it for the peer-review. And it's always possible that you missed something. That's why we make a peer-review.
In addition, it might help in case of an issue in the future when we can check how the situation was before activation and read why we didn't include it.

Online si404

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Re: gbnb: Great Britain B Roads
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2020, 02:56:54 pm »
Is Wales so bad? I think that England is not that bad. What's about Scotland?
It's not specific to any. I pointed this out to you, doing England, too.
I think it's better to report when maps show different routes so that you can check - e.g. in case of newly opened bypasses etc. - than ignoring it for the peer-review.
Altered routes, sure - they are worth looking at. Branches? I need more evidence than just the mapping.
Quote
And it's always possible that you missed something. That's why we make a peer-review.
Well yes, I was just clarifying what is actually something I missed, and "OSM/GM says there's a branch" almost certainly isn't something I missed.

Offline michih

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Re: gbnb: Great Britain B Roads
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2020, 03:13:40 pm »
I think it's better to report when maps show different routes so that you can check - e.g. in case of newly opened bypasses etc. - than ignoring it for the peer-review.
Altered routes, sure - they are worth looking at. Branches? I need more evidence than just the mapping.

Yes, it makes no sense with branches of B roads but B4252 which is indicated as A469 should be checked that it's really a B road since OSM + GM show it as A469.

Offline michih

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Re: gbnb: Great Britain B Roads
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2020, 07:37:41 am »
Back to England:

B2010:
FarLn is off
FarLn -> StaHill
B2162 is off


B2011:
Move A20 to the underpass


B2015:
B2162 is off
Move A228 to the center of the roundabout


B2016:
A20 is slightly off


B2019:
A25 is off


B2023:
A26 is off


B2024:
RecLn is off


B2026:
New wp for A26's CroRd
StrHalfMile -> StrHalfMile_S
B2188 is off
Split A264 into two wps
SpoLn is off


B2030:
Split A23 into two wps


B2032:
B2033 is off
B2022_S -> B2220_S


B2036:
Split A273_N into two wps
Move A272_E to the center of the roundabout
+X140920 is off
HayHeaRd is off
B2110_E is off


B2042:
A25 is off