Author Topic: freeways missing from usasf  (Read 848 times)

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Offline neroute2

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freeways missing from usasf
« on: January 15, 2020, 06:59:44 pm »
Some may be too short or unimportant.

AZ Fain Road (Prescott Valley)
AZ Northern Parkway
CA 10 (SBD Freeway stub west of I-5)
CA 259
CA 710 (Pasadena stub)
CA Alfred Harrell Highway
CA Colorado Freeway (old 134 east of I-5)
CA Golden State Boulevard (Fresno)
CA Jamboree Road
CA La Jolla Parkway
CA Long Beach connections to I-710
CA Pacific Highway (San Diego)
CO 6th Avenue (Denver)
CO Academy Boulevard (Colorado Springs)
CT Bradley International Airport Connector
CT Whitehead Highway (Hartford)
DC 9th and 12th Street Tunnels
DC E Street Expressway
DC East Capitol Street
DC North Capitol Street
DC South Capitol Street
FL 139 (Mathews Expressway, Jacksonville)
FL CR 296 and CR 611 (Pinellas County)
FL Disney World freeways
FL I-4/Selmon Expressway Connector (Tampa)
FL Nocatee Parkway
GA Lindsey Creek Parkway (I-185 extension)
GA Sugarloaf Parkway
IL Lake Shore Drive north of US 41
IL Stony Island Avenue
KS Woodie Seat Freeway (Hutchinson)
MA Plimoth Plantation Highway
MD Moravia Road (Baltimore)
MD Sam Eig Highway
MI Mound Road
MO Forest Park Parkway
NC Aviation Parkway (Raleigh-Durham)
NC Bryan Boulevard (Greensboro)
ND 810 (Bismarck Expressway)
NE Storz Expressway
NH Raymond Wieczorek Drive
NJ 76C
NV 171
NY 984J (connects I-684 to HRP)
NY Adirondack Northway (south of I-90)
NY Central Westchester Parkway
NY CR 97 and CR 99 (Suffolk County)
NY Inner Loop (Rochester)
NY JFK Expressway (Queens)
NY South Mall Arterial (Albany)
NY West Street (Syracuse)
OK Chickasaw Turnpike
OK LL Tisdale Parkway
PA Highland Park Bridge
RI Airport Connector
RI Henderson Bridge
TN 300 (currently part of Future I-69)
TN Plough Boulevard
TX FM 1764
TX PA 1502 (Wurzbach Parkway)
TX PR 22 (Padre Island)
WA Evergreen Parkway (Olympia)

Related:
http://travelmapping.net/hb/?r=tx.sp0097 should probably be moved to usasf as IntPkwy. Most of it is not Spur 97, and I don't think it's signed.
http://travelmapping.net/hb/?r=in.samjonexpy has a hanging west end.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 11:07:51 am by neroute2 »

Offline Markkos1992

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Re: freeways missing from usasf
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2020, 07:24:33 pm »
I am not sure about PA Highland Park Bridge (HigParkBri) offhand.  A quick glance of length using Google Maps shows that it is only 0.7 miles and acts more like a short connector road between PA 28 and PA 8. (though longer than the connecting road between I-76 and I-79 at Cranberry that has an interchange with US 19 in the middle....  However, that is obviously not in the HB.)

I will think about this one for a while.  PA CenScrExp (Central Scranton Expressway) and PA HarTayBri (Harvey Taylor Bridge) do connect to downtown areas of Scranton and Harrisburg respectively.

Offline mapcat

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Re: freeways missing from usasf
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2020, 08:30:29 pm »
The Sam Jones Expy's controlled access section ends at a traffic light, so I chose not to continue it on to I-465.

Not much--maybe a mile?--of Mound Road is a freeway.

I think the reason I left Plough Blvd out is because it doesn't connect to another route. Airways Blvd intersects I-240. These don't have to make a connection, of course, but it's pretty rare that they don't.

There are a couple on the list I could get behind but most of these seem unimportant.
Clinched:

Offline rickmastfan67

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Re: freeways missing from usasf
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2020, 08:50:35 pm »
I am not sure about PA Highland Park Bridge (HigParkBri) offhand.  A quick glance of length using Google Maps shows that it is only 0.7 miles and acts more like a short connector road between PA 28 and PA 8. (though longer than the connecting road between I-76 and I-79 at Cranberry that has an interchange with US 19 in the middle....  However, that is obviously not in the HB.)

I will think about this one for a while.  PA CenScrExp (Central Scranton Expressway) and PA HarTayBri (Harvey Taylor Bridge) do connect to downtown areas of Scranton and Harrisburg respectively.

I personally would not consider the Highland Park Bridge as a freeway.  Acts like the 10th Street Bypass downtown IMO.

However, if we ever decide to add the 'Belt Highways' of Allegheny County, we could gain the Highland Park Bridge that way.

Offline oscar

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Re: freeways missing from usasf
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2020, 11:12:37 pm »
Some quick reactions for CA and NV:

-- I don't like the idea of adding to usasf routes that would belong in usaca (CA 259) or usanv (NV 171) if their route numbers were signed. EDIT: But then there's Florida's Turnpike, which has two unsigned route numbers, but is also one of the main reasons why we need usasf in the first place -- so let's not get carried away with this as a possible guideline.

-- For CA 259, there's the added complication that the highway not only doesn't have a signed route number, but also AFAIK doesn't even have a name (signed or otherwise) by which we could call it in usasf.

-- The Pacific Highway in San Diego, including its short freeway portion, is in the HB already as part of US101HisSan.

-- Some of the shorter routes in CA (Pasadena stub of unsigned CA 710, Colorado Fwy) are less than a mile long. and are otherwise unimportant. The San Bernadino Freeway stub between I-5 and US 101 is more important, but still is only about 0.6 mile long.

-- Is Golden State Blvd. in Fresno even a freeway (except perhaps a tiny < 1 mi. bit at its north end)?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 06:08:55 pm by oscar »

Offline Markkos1992

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Re: freeways missing from usasf
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2020, 06:53:39 am »
I am not sure about PA Highland Park Bridge (HigParkBri) offhand.  A quick glance of length using Google Maps shows that it is only 0.7 miles and acts more like a short connector road between PA 28 and PA 8. (though longer than the connecting road between I-76 and I-79 at Cranberry that has an interchange with US 19 in the middle....  However, that is obviously not in the HB.)

I will think about this one for a while.  PA CenScrExp (Central Scranton Expressway) and PA HarTayBri (Harvey Taylor Bridge) do connect to downtown areas of Scranton and Harrisburg respectively.

I personally would not consider the Highland Park Bridge as a freeway.  Acts like the 10th Street Bypass downtown IMO.

However, if we ever decide to add the 'Belt Highways' of Allegheny County, we could gain the Highland Park Bridge that way.

On the note of the 'Belt Highways', I have already made it a rule to add points at any intersections those routes have with routes in the HB.  We probably need to have the tool to be able to choose what systems we want to track and which ones we do not before adding those.

Offline neroute2

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Re: freeways missing from usasf
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2020, 08:01:23 am »
Some quick reactions for CA and NV:

-- I don't like the idea of adding to usasf routes that would belong in usaca (CA 259) or usanv (NV 171) if their route numbers were signed. For CA 259, there's the added complication that the highway not only doesn't have a signed route number, but also AFAIK doesn't even have a name (signed or otherwise) by which we could call it in usasf.
These seem like the perfect selections: freeways that are state maintained but have no signed numbers.
We do have precedent in Alabama: http://travelmapping.net/hb/index.php?r=al.al152

Offline oscar

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Re: freeways missing from usasf
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2020, 11:00:47 am »
Some quick reactions for CA and NV:

-- I don't like the idea of adding to usasf routes that would belong in usaca (CA 259) or usanv (NV 171) if their route numbers were signed. For CA 259, there's the added complication that the highway not only doesn't have a signed route number, but also AFAIK doesn't even have a name (signed or otherwise) by which we could call it in usasf.
These seem like the perfect selections: freeways that are state maintained but have no signed numbers.
We do have precedent in Alabama: http://travelmapping.net/hb/index.php?r=al.al152

Maybe not. AL 152 was once signed, even if it isn't now, and may have been signed when it was added to usansf (not usasf) in CHM's early years.

Should AL 152 be removed from usansf? Will it transfer to usaal when that system is activated, if it remains unsigned?

BTW, CA 259 once had route markers, but it didn't by the time I field-checked the route (several times, I looked hard for a reason to keep it in usaca) in 2016 or 2017.

I'm not aware of any former route signage on NV 171, though it also doesn't include all of the McCarran Airport Connector (about 0.7 mi. in NV 171, about 1.3 mi. in the unnumbered part of the connector).

Offline michih

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Re: freeways missing from usasf
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2020, 02:35:28 pm »
A quick glance of length using Google Maps shows that it is only 0.7 miles and acts more like a short connector road between PA 28 and PA 8.

We usually add routes to eursf system when the route has minimum one more grade-separated junction between the start and end point except when the potential eursf route connects two freeways and it's not just "one giant interchange".

Offline Bickendan

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Re: freeways missing from usasf
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2020, 07:04:34 pm »
Some quick reactions for CA and NV:

-- I don't like the idea of adding to usasf routes that would belong in usaca (CA 259) or usanv (NV 171) if their route numbers were signed. For CA 259, there's the added complication that the highway not only doesn't have a signed route number, but also AFAIK doesn't even have a name (signed or otherwise) by which we could call it in usasf.

-- Some of the shorter routes in CA (Pasadena stub of unsigned CA 710, Colorado Fwy) are less than a mile long. and are otherwise unimportant. The San Bernadino Freeway stub between I-5 and US 101 is more important, but still is only about 0.6 mile long.

Without looking at Daniel Faign's site, I'm under the impression that CA 259 is the northern (eastern) most fringe of the San Bernardino Freeway, as I recall that the SBD designation ran along I-10 from US 101 to I-215, then up I-215 to at least the CA 259 split (with the Barstow Freeway starting there).

I was a proponent of adding the US 101 to I-5/10 segment of the SBD back when I drafted usaca, but Tim nixed it on grounds of length despite its importance.

Offline bejacob

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Re: freeways missing from usasf
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2020, 07:10:08 pm »
Make the case for why any of these routes should be added. It's possible a handful might make the cut if the case is compelling.

The comments so far go in the other directions. Clearly some were previously considered and rejected. Lack of signage, freeway (or not), and total length seem to be factors.

Offline neroute2

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Re: freeways missing from usasf
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2020, 07:33:14 pm »
Make the case for why any of these routes should be added.
Why not have the individual maintainers look at the list and see if they think any are worth adding?

Offline Duke87

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Re: freeways missing from usasf
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2020, 07:34:11 pm »
The initial drafting of usasf generally used a guideline of 5 miles minimum length to be considered worthy of inclusion. Some routes which do not meet this threshold have been added in the past several years on an ad-hoc basis as requests have been made and as the region's maintainers have felt like it... but there has not been any consistent criteria applied.

The initial drafting generally also excluded freeways which are not state-maintained - THIS, I do think is important since it gets solidly into scope creep territory if we find ourselves mapping county and local roads.



Beyond that, I'll go ahead and share my thoughts on some specifics:

CT Bradley International Airport Connector some recent construction has reduced the portion of the connector that is freeway and not part of CT 20 down to essentially nothing. So this should be out of consideration.

MD Moravia Road (Baltimore) is not even marked as a freeway on OSM! :) it's also a local road maintained by the city of Baltimore. Since Maryland is one of my regions I'm going to go ahead and make the call that no this isn't getting added to usasf.

MD Sam Eig Highway is considered by SHA to be part of I-370 up until where the ramp from 270 westbound merges in, which is only about 1000 feet shy of where it solidly ceases being freeway at Fields Rd. I-370 having its western endpoint there was likely nixed (and rightly so) by 1 point per interchange policy. The last ~1000 feet of freeway, including the Washingtonian Blvd overpass and west-facing ramps, are county maintenance.
So, this is also not worthy of inclusion on account of being both short and not state-maintained.

NJ 76C is a long exit ramp and has no signed name. Methinks this does not belong in usasf. However in the event we were to make a system for the unsigned NJ state routes it would absolutely go in there.

NY Central Westchester Parkway is county maintenance, so should be categorically excluded.

NY CR 97 and CR 99 (Suffolk County) a.k.a. Nicolls Rd and Woodside Ave, respectively, should also be categorically excluded on account of being county routes.

NY Inner Loop (Rochester) is worth including even in abbreviated form.

NY JFK Expressway (Queens) has been proposed for addition in the past by others. I think it would be worth adding.

RI Henderson Bridge is physically on the chopping block, to be narrowed to two lanes and cease being a freeway. So, nothing to add here.

Offline Duke87

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Re: freeways missing from usasf
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2020, 07:37:59 pm »
Related:
http://travelmapping.net/hb/?r=tx.sp0097 should probably be moved to usasf as IntPkwy. Most of it is not Spur 97, and I don't think it's signed.

It is signed, even if not terribly thoroughly.

Offline oscar

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Re: freeways missing from usasf
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2020, 07:57:58 pm »
Lack of signage, freeway (or not), and total length seem to be factors.

The shortest route now in usasf, Pennsylvania's Central Scranton Expressway at 0.96 mi., is also the only one less than 1 mile long. There are a handful in the 1-2 mile range. I think any new routes less than a mile long (some of them are on neroute2's list) would be a tough sell, and maintainers might be balky about other routes at the low end of the 1-5 mile range.

The initial drafting generally also excluded freeways which are not state-maintained - THIS, I do think is important since it gets solidly into scope creep territory if we find ourselves mapping county and local roads.

I disagree. Nevada's CR 215 beltway, almost 40 miles long, is a prime counter-example.

The requirement that usasf routes be mostly or entirely freeways, and our focus on "select" freeways rather than trying to be comprehensive, should head off the "scope creep" concern.