Author Topic: fraidfd: Ile-de-France Routes Départementales  (Read 1818 times)

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Offline si404

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fraidfd: Ile-de-France Routes Départementales
« on: March 30, 2020, 10:20:27 am »
Breaking this off the whole France thread to begin peer review (as it might get messy later on).
« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 04:05:41 pm by michih »

Offline si404

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fraidad77 - Ile-de-France Routes Départementales (Seine-et-Marne)
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2020, 11:26:00 am »
Seine-et-Marne (fraidfd77)

I'm presuming that other D roads appearing on OSM are unsigned, hence not included.

D1, D1A, D1C, D1D, D1E, D1F, D2, D2A, D2B, D3, D3A, D3E, D4, D5, D5A2, D5A, D5B, D5D, D5R, D6, D6E, D7, D7A1, D7A2 - fine

D9 - D9E_W -> D9E

D9D, D9E1, D9E - fine

D10 - D216 -> D216/D216E

D10Sol, D10E, D10P - fine

D11 - D24 -> D24/D83

D12
 - D419_N -> D408/D419
 - hidden point east of D209 -> RueVieCha

D13 - D26 -> D26E

D14 - fine

D14E, D14EMei - is D14E-51 actually part of this route (albeit in GES)?

D15, D15E1, D15E, D16, D16a, D17, D17a2, D17a, D17aMea, D17e, D18, D18a, D19 - fine

D20 - AveVil: the D21 is concurrent with the D20 south of here, and D33 north of here. Either it keeps as is, or the label on D20 becomes 'D21/D33', on D21 'D20/D33', and on D33 'D20/D21'.

D20a, D20e1, D20e3, D20e5, D20e - fine

D21 - D934_W -> D33/D934

D21a, D21e, D21p, D22, D22e - fine

D23 - D94 -> D94/D102

D24 - D11 -> D11/D83? Ess/SeM?

D24e, D25 - fine

Offline michih

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Re: fraidfd - Ile-de-France Routes Départementales
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2020, 04:01:48 pm »
I'm presuming that other D roads appearing on OSM are unsigned, hence not included.

yep. However, I've omitted routes with indexed suffixes in IDF because I thought it might be wise..... but it wasn't. Route like D1E1 or D1E4.
I think it was only in my very first French system fraidfd78 (Yvelines). Maximum two departements. It would be nice if you could report the missing routes. They must be confirmed by GSV, or OSM and GM.

btw: IDA -> IDF

Offline michih

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Re: fraidfd - Ile-de-France Routes Départementales
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2020, 02:41:32 pm »
D10 - D216 -> D216/D216E

I've generally omitted it on purpose to simplify it. I think I wrote about it anywhere upthread.

D216's wp is called D10/D216E
D216E's wp is called D10/D216
D10's wp is called D216 instead of D216/D216E

I'd like to leave it as-is. Fine to you?



D12
 - D419_N -> D408/D419

D408 doesn't intersect but end here. See recent cases in Wales.



D12
 - hidden point east of D209 -> RueVieCha

I know that some hwy data manager prefer having all wps visible but I'm in favor of just adding visible wps at important junctions.



D14E, D14EMei - is D14E-51 actually part of this route (albeit in GES)?

D14E is signed at the junction with D247 but there are no km posts. km posts often (or usually?) indicate the departement. D247 must clearly be maintained by Marne departement and I see no reason why D14E should not be maintained by Marne.

There are similar cases where extra-territorial routes have km posts indicating the external departement name, e.g. from Aube departement. I realized it quite late (when drafting Aube, my last system completed), so please report these cases so that I can check them for km posts on GSV.



D20 - AveVil: the D21 is concurrent with the D20 south of here, and D33 north of here. Either it keeps as is, or the label on D20 becomes 'D21/D33', on D21 'D20/D33', and on D33 'D20/D21'.

D20 and D33 end here. D21 continues. Shouldn't it be:
D20: D21_N
D33: D21_S
D21: AveVil

I've not yet changed it - waiting for your "approval"



D24 - D11 -> D11/D83? Ess/SeM?

I'll change it to Ess/SeM.

Offline si404

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Re: fraidfd - Ile-de-France Routes Départementales
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2020, 03:08:08 pm »
D10 - D216 -> D216/D216E

I've generally omitted it on purpose to simplify it. I think I wrote about it anywhere upthread.

D216's wp is called D10/D216E
D216E's wp is called D10/D216
D10's wp is called D216 instead of D216/D216E

I'd like to leave it as-is. Fine to you?
OK, that makes sense.
Quote
D20 - AveVil: the D21 is concurrent with the D20 south of here, and D33 north of here. Either it keeps as is, or the label on D20 becomes 'D21/D33', on D21 'D20/D33', and on D33 'D20/D21'.

D20 and D33 end here. D21 continues. Shouldn't it be:
D20: D21_N
D33: D21_S
D21: AveVil

I've not yet changed it - waiting for your "approval"
D20 intersects with both D21 (which it has been running concurrent with) and D33, so should be D21/D33
D33 intersects with both D21 (which it has been running concurrent with) and D20, so should be D20/D21
D21 is a concurrency switch, so should be D20/D33 "If the highway jumps from one numbered multiplex to another, the most useful waypoint label would include both routes without any suffixes."

Everything else is fine.

Offline michih

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Re: fraidfd - Ile-de-France Routes Départementales
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2020, 03:16:04 pm »
yep, I was confused. Got it, changed it, will submit it soon. Thanks :)

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Re: fraidfd - Ile-de-France Routes Départementales
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2020, 09:50:15 am »
D26, D26A, D26E1, D26E, D27, D27A, D28, D28A, D28E, D29, D30, D30A, D31, D31Mon, D31A, D32, D32E2, D32E3 - fine

D32E4
 - RueCou -> RueCha
 - branch marked on OSM to the other side of Beauvoir

D33, D33A, D33E, D34, D34A1, D34A, D34E, D35, D35Bus, D35Mel, D35Ozo, D35A3, D35A, D35E, D36 - fine

D36A - RueViePui -> RueViePui_S

D37, D37A, D38, D39, D39Mee, D39A, D39E - fine

D40 - D607_E -> D607_S, D607_W -> D607_N

D40Pam, D40D, D40E1, D40E, D41, D41B, D41E1, D41E, D42, D43, D43Bra, D43E, D44, D45, D45A, D46 -fine

D47 - does D57 extend west into Fouju (and beyond)?

D47A, D47E1, D47E - fine

D48
 - should N104 and CheBre be merged into a point at the N104 overbridge (and actually intersecting with the N104?
 - D35_W -> D35_S
 - D35_E -> D35_N

D49 - fine

D49Gas - D215_X shouldn't these be E/W rather than N/S?

D49A1, D49A2, D49A4, D49A, D49B, D49J - fine

Offline si404

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Re: fraidfd - Ile-de-France Routes Départementales
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2020, 12:50:44 pm »
D50
 - make visible shaping point in roundabout at Rue Haut Breuil: it's not that the route is essential, but you've placed the point in the middle of the roundabout and the road's named so there's zero reason why it should be hidden.
 - add point for Westfield shopping parc as leads from A5A exit 10a.
 - is RuePort D934?

D50E1, D50E3, D51, D51Cha, D51E, D52, D52A, D52D, D52E, D53, D54, D54A, D55, D55B, D55E1, D55E4, D55E, D55EB, D56, D56Gas, D57, D58, D59, D59A, D59B, D59C - fine

D60 - D60/D108_x -> D108/D111_x

D60A, D61, D62, D62E, D63, D63A, D63D, D63E, D64, D65, D66, D66B - fine

D67 - add point for D213

D67B - fine

D67C - D67_S -> D67/D408

D67E - RueLiB_N -> RueLib_N

D68, D68A, D68P, D69, D69A, D69B, D69E - fine

D70  - D68A/D68P -> D68_N

D70A, D71, D71A, D71E, D72, D72A - fine

D73 - D53_N -> D53_W, D53_S -> D53_E

D74, D74A - fine

Offline si404

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Re: fraidfd - Ile-de-France Routes Départementales
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2020, 01:49:24 pm »
D75 - D15_N -> D15_W, D15_S -> D15_E

D75Mis, D75A1 - fine

D75A2 - RuePorPro is on maps as D2403, but number isn't signed

D75A, D75B, D75E1, D75E2, D75E, D76, D76E, D77, D77B, D77C, D78, D79, D79A1, D79A, D80, D80E, D81, D81Dhu - fine

D82 - add point AveChaMon_W (leads to GSJ, counteracts the _E point)

D82E, D83, D84, D84Cou, D84A1 - fine

D84A2 - D84C isn't in browser despite being signed

D84A3 - fine

D84A4 - road north of RueRayBrau marked as D844 on OSM and signed as such

D85 - fine

D85P - might want to replace hidden point with a visible one in Conde-Sainte-Libiaire as fairly large settlement

D86
 - route through Le Pin from RueCou and D34_N marked on OSM as D2086, but unsigned
 - move D404 to overbridge

D87, D88, D88A, D89, D90, D90A, D91, D92, D92A, D93, D94, D95 - fine

D96 - D21 -> D21/D231

D97, D98, D99, D99E - fine

Offline si404

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Re: fraidfd - Ile-de-France Routes Départementales
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2020, 09:06:24 am »
D100
 - D131_N -> D131_E, D131_S -> D131_N, D131_W -> D131_S to make the concurrent bit N/S rather than S (which is further north than W) and W

D100A, D100B, D101, D102, D102A1, D102A, D103, D103A2 - fine

D103A - D7A -> D7A2? The other suffixed routes with numbers tend to have the number put in on intersecting routes.

D103D, D103E, D104, D105, D105A, D105B, D106, D106E, D107, D108, D108Mei, D108E - fine

D109 - OSM and GM have end of route at the southern end of where the border runs along road, not north end (border unsigned)

D109A, D110 - fine

D111
 - D111B need to add route as signed
 - D108_W -> D108_S, D108_E -> D108_N

D112 - RuePar is D20E on OSM, but unsigned (signage at that junction is well old), also unsigned is the D31 heading out of Touquin

D112B - make shaping point visible

D112E2 - fine

D112E
 - C8 is marked as C16 on OSM but signed as C8 so good
 - road from southern shaping point heading north is D20E on OSM, unsigned and no entrance at north end, so good

D113
 - point for C2 as leads to D14F/D215 junction?
 - point for C6 as leads to D42/D46 junction?

D114, D114P, D115, D116, D117, D117A, D118, D118A, D119 - fine

D120, D120Cha, D120E1, D120E2, D120E3, D121, D121A, D121E, D122, D123, D124, D124A, D125 - fine

Offline si404

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Re: fraidfd - Ile-de-France Routes Départementales
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2020, 10:24:42 am »
D126, D126A, D127 - fine

D127A - southward extension sort of marked on OSM. Not signed at N330, and signed as C1 at D401, so good.

D128, D129 - fine

D130, D130A, D130B - fine

D131 - D100_S -> D100_E

D132, D133, D134, D135, D136 - fine

D137 - better suffix for D138_W? D138_Tho? It feels like it's given the west suffix just to give it one.

D137E2, D137E3, D137E4, D137E - fine

D138 - better suffix for D137_E? D137_Tho? It feels like it's given the east suffix just to give it one.

D139, D139E - fine

D140 - is that a GSJ with N330/D405 (albeit offramps only)? Seems like the slip to N330 is closed (no entry signs in both directions).

D141, D141E, D142, D143, D143E1, D143E - fine

D144 - D402 -> D48/D402

D144A
 - RueBer_E is marked as D421 on OSM, but unsigned
 - continuation south marked on OSM is signed as R13

D145, D146, D146A1, D146A2, D146A3, D147, D147A, D148, D150 - fine

D151
 - continuation to A5a is D1151 on OSM, but unsigned

D152
 - D63A1 -> D63A (what the route is in our browser)
 - D58/D417 -> D606/D607 (as more major routes, or are we going numerical, in which case there was at least one I ignored) though not really important.

D199 - BlvsBoisGra has D217b on OSM but unsigned

Offline michih

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Re: fraidfd - Ile-de-France Routes Départementales
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2020, 10:56:26 am »
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/3766

D32E4
 - branch marked on OSM to the other side of Beauvoir

D50
 - is RuePort D934?

D75A2 - RuePorPro is on maps as D2403, but number isn't signed

D86
 - route through Le Pin from RueCou and D34_N marked on OSM as D2086, but unsigned

As mentioned before, OSM is in some departements outdated but quite often just crap in France. I've spent a lot of time on checking these cases.
It's similar for 4-digit D numbers in departements where there are usually no 4-digit D routes. They are usually unsigned - likely outdated on OSM or GM.




D50
 - make visible shaping point in roundabout at Rue Haut Breuil: it's not that the route is essential, but you've placed the point in the middle of the roundabout and the road's named so there's zero reason why it should be hidden.

Reduce number of wps in HB so that the user is not overwhealmed with tons of clutter. I've changed this wp though because it's a roundabout.




D84A2 - D84C isn't in browser despite being signed

The northern end point would be the A104 ramp 6a
What we currently have as 6a is 6b.
The whole interchange is just no. 6 northbound.
I've split the interchange into 3 now so that D84C ends at 6a.




D109 - OSM and GM have end of route at the southern end of where the border runs along road, not north end (border unsigned)

I've put it in-between where the asphalt changes




D112 - RuePar is D20E on OSM, but unsigned (signage at that junction is well old), also unsigned is the D31 heading out of Touquin

The best indication are the plates at town signs. There are none, e.g. here.




D113
 - point for C2 as leads to D14F/D215 junction?
 - point for C6 as leads to D42/D46 junction?

C numbers on OSM are the worst. I only add them when it's confirmed by GSV.
C6 is not signed but C10 at the next junction

Gone with village names on direction signs.




D138 - better suffix for D137_E? D137_Tho? It feels like it's given the east suffix just to give it one.

Correct :) I don't care much about the cardinal direction suffixes. I think it's simpler for users. I saw it when reviewing some of your systems in the past. Keep as-is.




D140 - is that a GSJ with N330/D405 (albeit offramps only)? Seems like the slip to N330 is closed (no entry signs in both directions).

I remember.... http://travelmapping.net/hb/?r=fraidf.d014077&lat=48.989378&lon=2.870253&zoom=16
If I would add a wp for N330, I would need to add another wp for the ramp to D405 and a wp @ D405 for the ramp. Should I do it?




D144A
 - RueBer_E is marked as D421 on OSM, but unsigned
 - continuation south marked on OSM is signed as R13

yep, leave as-is




D151
 - continuation to A5a is D1151 on OSM, but unsigned

Leave as-is




D152
 - D58/D417 -> D606/D607 (as more major routes, or are we going numerical, in which case there was at least one I ignored) though not really important.

I'm gone numerical so far. It's the unanswered question no. 2 on my list.

2. It happens that routes with four route numbers intersect. Do we always use the lowest two wp numbers or do we use the most important route, like the former N routes?
Do we use all intersecting/concurrent routes in wp labels or just the one with lowest number or just with most important number? Concurrencies are usually not signed.

Offline si404

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Re: fraidfd - Ile-de-France Routes Départementales
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2020, 11:43:40 am »
As mentioned before, OSM is in some departements outdated but quite often just crap in France. I've spent a lot of time on checking these cases.
Totally get it (and you'll note I'll check it and say later on), but you said:
It would be nice if you could report the missing routes.
Probably not worth it to say "leave as is" when I've said it's unsigned. If you don't want me mentioning it unless actionable, then that's fine - saves me having to write half my entries on the peer review!

To answer your question:
2. It happens that routes with four route numbers intersect. Do we always use the lowest two wp numbers or do we use the most important route, like the former N routes?
Do we use all intersecting/concurrent routes in wp labels or just the one with lowest number or just with most important number? Concurrencies are usually not signed.
[/quote]I'd say it really doesn't matter as long as:
1) there's only two
2) they actually intersect
3) you have used some logic and not just picked two random intersecting roads

I don't even think consistency matters here - I mostly asked as I saw a perfectly fine one where a low route number was ignored in favour of a more major route, and then something like 10-15 routes later I saw this one where the low numbers used were less important the high numbers ex-N roads and wondered what your policy was.

And then the question in blue:
I remember.... http://travelmapping.net/hb/?r=fraidf.d014077&lat=48.989378&lon=2.870253&zoom=16
If I would add a wp for N330, I would need to add another wp for the ramp to D405 and a wp @ D405 for the ramp. Should I do it?
N330 seems like it has been closed, so the point would be starred anyway.

D405 - it's not, however actually a GSJ - it's just a one-way link between the two parallel roads and so inclusion is not manditory.

Offline michih

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Re: fraidfd - Ile-de-France Routes Départementales
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2020, 01:25:11 pm »
As mentioned before, OSM is in some departements outdated but quite often just crap in France. I've spent a lot of time on checking these cases.
Totally get it (and you'll note I'll check it and say later on), but you said:
It would be nice if you could report the missing routes.
Probably not worth it to say "leave as is" when I've said it's unsigned. If you don't want me mentioning it unless actionable, then that's fine - saves me having to write half my entries on the peer review!

I only meant the routes with indexed suffixes:

I've omitted routes with indexed suffixes in IDF because I thought it might be wise..... but it wasn't. Route like D1E1 or D1E4.
I think it was only in my very first French system fraidfd78 (Yvelines). Maximum two departements. It would be nice if you could report the missing routes. They must be confirmed by GSV, or OSM and GM.

Please report missing routes with indexed suffix in IDF when their existance is confirmed by GSV or by OSM and GM. Please report other missing routes which are also confirmed by two sources.
It is not necessary to report missing routes where only one  source - OSM or GM - shows bullshit which is not confirmed by GSV.

btw: The worst departement so far is Ardennes. OSM and GM are often contrary. It's Belgian.......  :pan:

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Re: fraidfd - Ile-de-France Routes Départementales
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2020, 09:52:52 am »
D201, D201Vil, D201A, D201B - fine

D204 - D215/D934 -> D934_E

D206, D207, D207A, D209, D210 - fine

D211 - D619 -> D47/D619

D212 - fine

D212E - D129E -> D139E

D213 - fine

D215 - D204/D934 -> D934_E

D215A, D215B - fine

D216 - D50/D319 -> D319

D216E - D10_W -> D10_N, D10_E -> D10_S

D217B, D217E, D218, D219, D219B, D219E, D219L - fine
D222, D222A, D224, D225, D225A, D226, D226Che, D227, D227E, D228, D228A, D228E, D231, D231A - fine

D235 - move N36 to centre of roundabout

D236, D236A, D239, D240 - fine