Poll

Do you think we should introduce a new system?

Europe Alps Passes (eurap)
0 (0%)
Europe Select Other Roads (eursor)
1 (12.5%)
Europe Alps Passes (eurap) + Europe Select Other Roads (eursor)
4 (50%)
Reject! No systems like suggested! (please post your reason)
3 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Author Topic: General Tier 5 system(s) for European roads?  (Read 3756 times)

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Offline michih

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General Tier 5 system(s) for European roads?
« on: September 11, 2016, 04:04:59 am »
See previous discussion in the autb thread: http://tm.teresco.org/forum/index.php?topic=376.msg2154#msg2154.


Summary: Tier 4 systems have recently been drafted for many (Central) European countries but there are some gaps on "important" routes.

The gaps are caused because the route is:

1. a "touristic" route with lower classification
E.g. Alps Passes, see wikipedia list

2. a private (toll) road
E.g. the important transit Felbertauern Strasse (no Alps pass but tunnel), Großglockner Hochalpenstraße (Alps pass) or Silvretta Hochalpenstraße (Alps pass)

3. continued in a neighboring country with lower classification (usually short segments)
There are many b/n DEU/AUT, AUT/CHE, CHE/FRA, DEU/AUT,... Or gaps b/n tier 1 and tier 4 routes which are do not fulfil eursf standard.

4. part of a theoretical tier 5 system (which will likely never be drafted) but still important
E.g. St2622 north of Passau (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=48.688467&lon=13.423233), St2580 Flughafentangente Ost (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=48.335399&lon=11.866136), L76 south of Berlin (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.367424&lon=13.402977) which closes the gap b/n eursf L40 and B96a or L1115 Autobahnzubringer Backnang (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=48.982477&lon=9.325751).



I made a suggestion that we could draft a new tier 5 system "Europe Alps Passes" (eurap).
It would be similar to the existing gbrtr or cannss systems.

Pros:
- There's a clear list of routes on wikipedia
- No big discussion expected about routes to be added

Cons:
- It's only a solution for routes from 1. and some from 2.
- It only covers the Alps in AUT, CHE, DEU, FRA, ITA and SLO



Si and I thought about introducing a new tier 5 system "Europe Select Other Roads" (eursor).
It would be similar to the existing eursf, cansph or cannf systems.

Pros:
- Any route might be added
- Could cover almost all routes 1.-4. except minor Alps passes

Cons:
- Any route might be added (endless discussion?)

We could have one eursor system or country-specific systems like chesor, deusor, autsor,... If you vote for eursor but prefer country-specific systems, please mention it with a post.



Note: eurap could also cover tier 4 routes but eursor would never contain any potential tier 4 route (e.g. no Italian SS roads).
Of course, I would draft eurap system if we wanna introduce the system and I would start eursor system :)



I don't know how things have been handled on CHM and I don't know how we wanna handle it. That's why I make this poll. Feel free to add your objections and thoughts also you are not interested in European routes at all.

Offline Spinoza

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Re: General Tier 5 system(s) for European roads?
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2016, 07:15:54 am »
I voted "reject" since I think we only should introduce routes with clear and unambiguous classification. Maybe the "alpine passes" section can be defined more clearly, but at least in Italy there is no official classification for such routes: they are marked as national roads, or provincial, depending on their importance.
The "select named freeways" also is not very clear: I know it comes from CHM website, but at least in Italy makes no sense. For instance FIPILI is there even though it is a lower importance superstrada (secondary extra-urban road), while many other primary extra-urban roads are not present (SS77, SS76, SPBS11, etc) just because they are numbered and not named.

Offline michih

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Re: General Tier 5 system(s) for European roads?
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2016, 02:46:09 pm »
I voted "reject"

Thanks, every opinion is welcomed :)

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since I think we only should introduce routes with clear and unambiguous classification. Maybe the "alpine passes" section can be defined more clearly, but at least in Italy there is no official classification for such routes: they are marked as national roads, or provincial, depending on their importance.

Exactly. That's why I'm not sure if we should really add systems like this. Minimum for "alpine passes", I could use the wikipedia list.

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The "select named freeways" also is not very clear: I know it comes from CHM website, but at least in Italy makes no sense. For instance FIPILI is there even though it is a lower importance superstrada (secondary extra-urban road), while many other primary extra-urban roads are not present (SS77, SS76, SPBS11, etc) just because they are numbered and not named.

My favorite system :)
I agree that SS77 and SS76 are not eursf b/c they belong to a potential (or future) tier 4 system itass* but I think SPBS11 could be added. Dunno if it was handled different on CHM (with the previous country-specific system) but compared to how we handle eursf on TM, I think it could be added...

*Combining the name with a German saying, the system could be "for the Italian ass". I don't think one will start drafting these routes "soon" b/c I think Italian signage is a mess... Do you have a full list of SS roads and their routes?


btw: @Si: I'm not as nice as cinx but maybe you wanna have a look at these 8 routes :)

Offline michih

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Re: General Tier 5 system(s) for European roads?
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2016, 02:57:38 pm »
Maybe we should make a list of potential Eurpean tier 5 systems like it's done for tier 4 systems. Roads of all countries w/o potential tier 5 system could be added to eursor system.

NOR, SWE, FIN (active), DNK have signed road systems, I think SLO G200+ could be tier 5 too.

Germany and Austria have L roads (partially S or St) and French has D roads but the numbers are not unique all over the country or not signed (just on km posts). CHE H101+ are also not signed, see wikipedia. I think it's similar for Croatian Z roads and Czech II roads but I'm not 100% sure.

Dunno if Portuguese IC roads or Polish DW roads could be tier 5?

Any different opinion or thoughts about other countries?

Offline bhemphill

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Re: General Tier 5 system(s) for European roads?
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2016, 02:37:43 am »
As Spinoza noted, going with an alpine passes system can go down the slippery slope toward arguments of why this was included but not that.  The United States kind of had that with the select state freeway system before it was decided to map all the primary state highway systems.  There were also arguments over the length that was of motorway/freeway/highway quality being all that was included.  Some states have secondary highway systems, with only Montana having been added so far.  They are clearly more important than a county or local road and have route names that aren't reused in another part of the state like in some other states, so it is easy enough to justify the system gets included while others do not.  The Europe Alps Passes doesn't quite seem up to the same standards, since the list is different between languages on Wikipedia.

The Strade Statali looks like it will be an undertaking, since Wikipedia says that they are turning roads over to regions and provinces.  That would push the argument for the Strada Regionale being the tier 5 system there.  The Landesstraßen/Staatsstraßen of Germany and Austria and the Hauptstrassen of Switzerland can at least be seen as equivalent to state highways in the US.  What about Landesstraßen in Liechtenstein?  In France, the Departement Roads seem more like they are at the County/Kries level since there are not roads controlled by the regions.  That could probably be argued both ways though, since they are signed better in some places or for some roads.  If you think about it in the levels of government from the country level to each level below getting smaller and more local each time, it would be easier to make the list of what are the roads maintained at the level below the entire country government.  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2 would seem clear, but then there is also en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenclature_of_Territorial_Units_for_Statistics so that does just make it more complex.

Adding the next tier of road systems would mean that the European Select Named Freeways could be more easily limited to just those routes that are more of motorway quality, tollways, tunnels, or bridges that are a gap in the system, etc. instead of having people ask to have this road or that road added to the system.

Offline Spinoza

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Re: General Tier 5 system(s) for European roads?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2016, 03:43:23 am »
If we want to introduce the SS Italian system, I think the only sensible way to do that is consider the entire road, not considering the "downgraded" sections that are handled by provinces, otherwise you'll end up with a road segmented in tens of small stretches far away from each other and with little meaning. This would be quite easy, since for instance Italian Wikipedia lists all of them in their original configuration.

Otherwise, as higher-level tiers, we could introduce only dual carriageways that are not autostradas: primary and secondary extra-urban roads. This is trickier, because I don't think a comprehensive list is to be found anywhere, but I can assist with everything I know.

Offline michih

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Re: General Tier 5 system(s) for European roads?
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2016, 11:02:09 pm »
The Landesstraßen/Staatsstraßen of Germany and Austria and the Hauptstrassen of Switzerland can at least be seen as equivalent to state highways in the US.

Yes, but Landesstraßen numbering is not unique in Germany. Each state has it's own numbering system but almost all begin with L. For instance, there's a L1001 in Thuringia and another one in Baden-Württemberg and there's a L1 in Lower Saxony, North Rhine-Westphalia, Rhineland-Palatinate, Saxony-Anhalt and Schleswig-Holstein et cetera. They are only signed on km posts "Stationszeichen" but some states even do not have the number itself on Stationszeichen... They are usally used for administrative purpose only, dunno if this fact has a relevance here?

It's similar in Austria.

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What about Landesstraßen in Liechtenstein?

It's contained in the Swiss system which has Hauptstrassen only. 3-digit Hauptstrassen (which would be the potential tier 5 system) are not signed. Could we add them?

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it would be easier to make the list of what are the roads maintained at the level below the entire country government.

German Autobahns, Bundesstraßen und Landesstraßen are maintained by the states (Bundesländer). Autobahn and Bundesstraßen maintenance budget is from the Federal budget, Landesstraßen maintenance is paid from state's budget.

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2 would seem clear, but then there is also en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenclature_of_Territorial_Units_for_Statistics so that does just make it more complex.

If I got you right, you wanna split countries like Germany into different regions? To avoid the trouble I've mentioned before (numbering not unique)?

Quote
Adding the next tier of road systems would mean that the European Select Named Freeways could be more easily limited to just those routes that are more of motorway quality, tollways, tunnels, or bridges that are a gap in the system, etc. instead of having people ask to have this road or that road added to the system.

I think it's not a big problem right now, is it? Well, I usually bug Si and Spinoza mentioned it once here...

Offline michih

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Re: General Tier 5 system(s) for European roads?
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2016, 11:16:22 pm »
If we want to introduce the SS Italian system,

Of course, we want! It's just a matter of having a full list of signed roads et cetera.....

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I think the only sensible way to do that is consider the entire road, not considering the "downgraded" sections that are handled by provinces, otherwise you'll end up with a road segmented in tens of small stretches far away from each other and with little meaning. This would be quite easy, since for instance Italian Wikipedia lists all of them in their original configuration.

Do the rededicated sections have a new number, like SP123 (signed or unsigned)?

Quote
Otherwise, as higher-level tiers, we could introduce only dual carriageways that are not autostradas: primary and secondary extra-urban roads. This is trickier, because I don't think a comprehensive list is to be found anywhere, but I can assist with everything I know.

Higher-level tiers? I think Italian tier 1 is defined by autostrada. Tier 3 comprises E roads, tier 4 would be strada statale.

There's only tier 2 left. Italy does not have an official category like Polish or Austrian S roads. That means, we talk about eursf candidates. Just look at what we've done for Germany, Czechia, Sweden, Norway or Denmark: tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?sys=eursf. All roads which are not numbered "A" or "SS" could be added if they are motorway-like (2 carriageways with each 2 lanes, sometimes even with some traffic lights or roundabouts if the road usually has interchanges or a short 2-laned extension w/o median to close a gap to A neighboring mapped road). Feel free to suggest Italian roads in a new forum topic, e.g. "Potential Italian eursf candidates".

Offline Spinoza

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Re: General Tier 5 system(s) for European roads?
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2016, 08:50:53 am »
If we want to introduce the SS Italian system,

Of course, we want! It's just a matter of having a full list of signed roads et cetera.....

Quote
I think the only sensible way to do that is consider the entire road, not considering the "downgraded" sections that are handled by provinces, otherwise you'll end up with a road segmented in tens of small stretches far away from each other and with little meaning. This would be quite easy, since for instance Italian Wikipedia lists all of them in their original configuration.

Do the rededicated sections have a new number, like SP123 (signed or unsigned)?

It depends on the Region or Province that now handles them. Some provinces keep the number of the SS road and only change the prefix; some others change also the number, some others leave the entire name as before or add prefixes and/or suffixes.
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Otherwise, as higher-level tiers, we could introduce only dual carriageways that are not autostradas: primary and secondary extra-urban roads. This is trickier, because I don't think a comprehensive list is to be found anywhere, but I can assist with everything I know.

Higher-level tiers? I think Italian tier 1 is defined by autostrada. Tier 3 comprises E roads, tier 4 would be strada statale.

There's only tier 2 left. Italy does not have an official category like Polish or Austrian S roads. That means, we talk about eursf candidates. Just look at what we've done for Germany, Czechia, Sweden, Norway or Denmark: tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?sys=eursf. All roads which are not numbered "A" or "SS" could be added if they are motorway-like (2 carriageways with each 2 lanes, sometimes even with some traffic lights or roundabouts if the road usually has interchanges or a short 2-laned extension w/o median to close a gap to A neighboring mapped road). Feel free to suggest Italian roads in a new forum topic, e.g. "Potential Italian eursf candidates".

Even though there is no official classification for motorway-like roads it doesn't mean we can create one, instead of putting everything in that "garbage bin" of eursf. And by the way, the classification exists, even though it's technical and won't get reported on signs: it's "strada extraurbana principale" and "strada extraurbana secondaria", both popularly called "superstrada". Maybe the "strada extraurbana secondaria" is a bit confused because it is made up of dual-carriageway, 4-lane roads as well as single-carriageway, 2-lane ones, but for the "strada extraurbana principale" requirements are stricter. I think it could make a decent, legit tier 2 system for Italy.

Offline michih

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Re: General Tier 5 system(s) for European roads?
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2016, 04:11:21 pm »
Even though there is no official classification for motorway-like roads it doesn't mean we can create one, instead of putting everything in that "garbage bin" of eursf. And by the way, the classification exists, even though it's technical and won't get reported on signs: it's "strada extraurbana principale" and "strada extraurbana secondaria", both popularly called "superstrada". Maybe the "strada extraurbana secondaria" is a bit confused because it is made up of dual-carriageway, 4-lane roads as well as single-carriageway, 2-lane ones, but for the "strada extraurbana principale" requirements are stricter. I think it could make a decent, legit tier 2 system for Italy.

I think "strada extraurbana principale" should be tier 2, "strada extraurbana secondaria" tier 4 and SS roads tier 5, shouldn't it?
Is there an official list of superstrada routes or is it a mess like SS?

Offline bhemphill

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Re: General Tier 5 system(s) for European roads?
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2016, 04:23:58 am »
The Landesstraßen/Staatsstraßen of Germany and Austria and the Hauptstrassen of Switzerland can at least be seen as equivalent to state highways in the US.

Yes, but Landesstraßen numbering is not unique in Germany. Each state has it's own numbering system but almost all begin with L. For instance, there's a L1001 in Thuringia and another one in Baden-Württemberg and there's a L1 in Lower Saxony, North Rhine-Westphalia, Rhineland-Palatinate, Saxony-Anhalt and Schleswig-Holstein et cetera. They are only signed on km posts "Stationszeichen" but some states even do not have the number itself on Stationszeichen... They are usally used for administrative purpose only, dunno if this fact has a relevance here?

It's similar in Austria.

Yes, state numbering in the US is not unique, nor would provincial numbering in Canada be unique.

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What about Landesstraßen in Liechtenstein?

It's contained in the Swiss system which has Hauptstrassen only. 3-digit Hauptstrassen (which would be the potential tier 5 system) are not signed. Could we add them?

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it would be easier to make the list of what are the roads maintained at the level below the entire country government.

German Autobahns, Bundesstraßen und Landesstraßen are maintained by the states (Bundesländer). Autobahn and Bundesstraßen maintenance budget is from the Federal budget, Landesstraßen maintenance is paid from state's budget.

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2 would seem clear, but then there is also en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenclature_of_Territorial_Units_for_Statistics so that does just make it more complex.

If I got you right, you wanna split countries like Germany into different regions? To avoid the trouble I've mentioned before (numbering not unique)?


Yes, that is what the intent of the ramblings above were getting at.  The funding viewpoint and passing laws to say the roads to belong to this particular system too.  The next level lower of roads from the funding and government standpoint could be their own Landesstraßen system for each Länder to keep the duplicates separate, like the state routes in the US and provincial highways in Canada.  I can just see that some of the road network mapping has gotten to the point where things were in the US and Canada were a few years ago on CHM and the wanting to go further and add more and I am saying look at the next step and any wider repercussions.  As you noted some countries are marked on signs, while others are on the km posts, and some may be administrative only and unsigned.  Then there are the regions/Länder/Departements/etc. that may have those same signing differences.  It might take having a map of Europe with that next administrative level drawn on to shade in what areas would end up being covered at the signed level to see if it makes sense, or if the gaps of unsigned and not easily traceable routes makes too much of a problem for some area of Europe that may just look strange.  I don't know, since I am not familiar with things over there and much of my experience keeping track of route travels has been as a passenger and not in charge of navigation which allowed me to pay attention to the km posts more than I would have been able to otherwise.  The travels I did not keep track of I did figure out fairly well from pictures (I took a lot) and being mostly on Autobahn level roads.

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Adding the next tier of road systems would mean that the European Select Named Freeways could be more easily limited to just those routes that are more of motorway quality, tollways, tunnels, or bridges that are a gap in the system, etc. instead of having people ask to have this road or that road added to the system.

I think it's not a big problem right now, is it? Well, I usually bug Si and Spinoza mentioned it once here...

You are correct, it is not a big issue yet.  You and Si have tried to add the extra roads that are most likely to be asked about.  With all the additional European mileage, I would expect that more Europeans would join.  Then it could be more of an issue. 

Offline michih

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Re: General Tier 5 system(s) for European roads?
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2016, 06:08:03 am »
The next level lower of roads from the funding and government standpoint could be their own Landesstraßen system for each Länder to keep the duplicates separate, like the state routes in the US and provincial highways in Canada.

That means, we had to split deua tier 1 system into Länder too. A7 had to be split into 18 segments because it's crossing the border quite often... http://autobahnatlas-online.de/A7.htm

I don't wanna split it and I don't wanna draft all Landesstraßen routes. deub network has a length of about 12,000 miles, Landesstraßen would be more than 25,000 miles. And we're just talking about Germany... I even don't see getting tier 4 systems for all European countries active...

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It might take having a map of Europe with that next administrative level drawn on to shade in what areas would end up being covered at the signed level to see if it makes sense, or if the gaps of unsigned and not easily traceable routes makes too much of a problem for some area of Europe that may just look strange.

Yes, would make sense...

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With all the additional European mileage, I would expect that more Europeans would join.

I don't think so. Most of the current users are still from USA/Canada. The number of European travelers is quite low (~10..15?). I've reported about the progress of European tier 4 systems on SSC but only former CHM users changed to TM. I've presented TM on a German Autobahn forum but no new user joined TM.

Offline Spinoza

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Re: General Tier 5 system(s) for European roads?
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2016, 07:13:15 am »
Even though there is no official classification for motorway-like roads it doesn't mean we can create one, instead of putting everything in that "garbage bin" of eursf. And by the way, the classification exists, even though it's technical and won't get reported on signs: it's "strada extraurbana principale" and "strada extraurbana secondaria", both popularly called "superstrada". Maybe the "strada extraurbana secondaria" is a bit confused because it is made up of dual-carriageway, 4-lane roads as well as single-carriageway, 2-lane ones, but for the "strada extraurbana principale" requirements are stricter. I think it could make a decent, legit tier 2 system for Italy.

I think "strada extraurbana principale" should be tier 2, "strada extraurbana secondaria" tier 4 and SS roads tier 5, shouldn't it?
Is there an official list of superstrada routes or is it a mess like SS?

Problem is, many strada extraurbana principale are also SS, and some strada extraurbana secondaria are, too.
As far as I know there is no official list of superstrada roads, but it should not be extremely difficult to retrieve one.

Offline michih

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Re: General Tier 5 system(s) for European roads?
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2016, 11:34:22 am »
@Spinoza: Thanks :)
@Si: Italy is yours, what do you think?

Offline si404

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Re: General Tier 5 system(s) for European roads?
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2016, 05:05:40 am »
@Si: Italy is yours, what do you think?
That I don't want Italy!  :P