Travel Mapping

Highway Data Discussion => In-progress Highway Systems & Work => Topic started by: michih on June 04, 2021, 01:13:43 pm

Title: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on June 04, 2021, 01:13:43 pm
Actual status of the systems:

fraoccd09 - Ariège Routes Départementales
fraoccd11 - Aude Routes Départementales
fraoccd12 - Aveyron Routes Départementales
fraoccd30 - Gard Routes Départementales
fraoccd31 - Haute-Garonne Routes Départementales (shp files on yakra's server)
fraoccm31 - Toulouse Métropole Routes Métropolitaines
fraoccd32 - Gers Routes Départementales
fraoccd34 - Hérault Routes Départementales (shp files on yakra's server)
fraoccm34 - Montpellier Méditerranée Métropole Routes Métropolitaines
fraoccd46 - Lot Routes Départementales
fraoccd48 - Lozère Routes Départementales
fraoccd65 - Hautes-Pyrénées Routes Départementales (shp files on yakra's server)
fraoccd66 - Pyrénées-Orientales Routes Départementales
fraoccd81 - Tarn Routes Départementales
fraoccd82 - Tarn-et-Garonne Routes Départementales

Legend:
Black=not yet drafted (not in HB), Red=devel, Orange=preview, Green=active

Notes to routes:
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/blob/master/hwy_data/FRA-OCC/fraoccd/README.md

Please report issues here!
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on June 25, 2021, 01:33:35 pm
fraoccd30 - Gard Routes Départementales will be in preview with the next site update. More than 600 routes for more than 2,300 miles.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on June 28, 2021, 01:04:32 pm
fraoccd48 - Lozère Routes Départementales will be in preview with the next site update. More than 130 routes for almost 1,200 miles.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on July 17, 2021, 03:05:40 pm
fraoccd12 - Aveyron Routes Départementales will be in preview with the next site update. About 500 routes for more than 3,100 miles.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on July 18, 2021, 02:53:54 pm
A20 (https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=fraocc.a020) through OCC has some long spurs which we don't draft for HB. However, there are two spurs with interchanges:

The one to exit 58 is (partially) signed as D820E (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3445609,1.4740091,3a,15.1y,52h,96.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_ZCvX9kBYJeOB5lbHN6AVA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192):

Code: [Select]
D820 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.344737&lon=1.473713
D19/D149 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.343609&lon=1.482028
A20 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.342577&lon=1.500060

But the one to exit 57 is only indicated as A20 (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.5473582,1.4797209,3a,16.9y,83.58h,90.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3edeutQ11WJlHBWRe8ph3g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192):

Code: [Select]
D49/D820 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.547542&lon=1.479496
D22 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.538403&lon=1.491306
A20 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.530550&lon=1.512557

Both are grade-separated two-lane roads. It reminds me of A641 (https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=franaq.a641) with two interchanges - but it has its own number.

I'd add the first spur as D820E-46 (Lot departement) up to A20 but I don't know how to deal with the second one. I think it is worth for adding to HB due to the interchange. Should I add it to eursf system?

Thoughts?
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: Spinoza on July 20, 2021, 02:36:24 pm
A20_something
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on July 21, 2021, 12:47:46 pm
A20_something

sure, e.g. A20 (Francoulès), but it would be the first spur in fraa system.

I'd prefer a eursf route, e.g. Bretelle d'accès à l'autoroute Francoulès. Is grammar correct?
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: Spinoza on July 22, 2021, 03:13:42 am
A20_something

sure, e.g. A20 (Francoulès), but it would be the first spur in fraa system.

I'd prefer a eursf route, e.g. Bretelle d'accès à l'autoroute Francoulès. Is grammar correct?

Oui, c'est correct.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on July 24, 2021, 01:43:10 pm
A20_something

sure, e.g. A20 (Francoulès), but it would be the first spur in fraa system.

I'd prefer a eursf route, e.g. Bretelle d'accès à l'autoroute Francoulès. Is grammar correct?

Oui, c'est correct.

Merci! Will be in HB with the next site update: https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/4988
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on August 04, 2021, 03:52:52 pm
fraoccd46 - Lot Routes Départementales will be in preview with the next site update. More than 330 routes for more than 2,200 miles.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on August 17, 2021, 04:35:44 pm
fraoccd81 - Tarn Routes Départementales will be in preview with the next site update. About 300 routes for more than 2,200 miles.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on August 27, 2021, 11:59:42 am
fraoccd82 - Tarn-et-Garonne Routes Départementales will be in preview with the next site update. About 180 routes for more than 1,400 miles.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on September 08, 2021, 03:07:36 pm
fraoccd11 - Aude Routes Départementales will be in preview with the next site update. More than 430 routes for about 2,300 miles.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on September 14, 2021, 03:17:31 pm
fraoccd66 - Pyrénées-Orientales Routes Départementales will be in preview with the next site update. More than 220 routes for more than 1,000 miles.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: ua747sp on September 20, 2021, 04:01:22 pm
So happy to see Pyrénées-Orientales go to preview! Thanks for your work on this. I wanted to bring one item to your attention.

On FRA-OCC D627-11 it looks like there are a couple points near Port Leucate to fix. D627 does not have access to the two roads immediately on either side of the canal there. So PortLeu should be moved a few hundred meters south to ramps, and CheGrau should be moved a few hundred meters north to its ramps. Thanks again!
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on September 21, 2021, 01:50:15 pm
So happy to see Pyrénées-Orientales go to preview! Thanks for your work on this.

Happy to get positive feedback on my work :)

On FRA-OCC D627-11 it looks like there are a couple points near Port Leucate to fix. D627 does not have access to the two roads immediately on either side of the canal there. So PortLeu should be moved a few hundred meters south to ramps, and CheGrau should be moved a few hundred meters north to its ramps. Thanks again!

I think that the points are correct. Both are grade-separate junctions, and the points are at the underpasses. I know that it might look odd but there are numerous examples like that at other places. si404 often demanded the points when reviewing my systems.

https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=fraocc.d062711
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on October 24, 2021, 02:07:44 pm
fraoccd09 - Ariège  Routes Départementales will be in preview with the next site update. More than 360 routes for more than 1,300 miles.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on November 08, 2021, 04:09:57 pm
fraoccd65 - Hautes-Pyrénées  Routes Départementales will be in preview with the next site update. More than 400 routes for more than 1,600 miles.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: yakra on November 08, 2021, 05:24:14 pm
In this case I’m with ua747sp.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on November 09, 2021, 12:22:00 pm
In this case I’m with ua747sp.

yep, but the decision was made years ago. There are too many wps like this all over Europe / the world.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: yakra on November 09, 2021, 01:12:43 pm
Quote from: https://travelmapping.net/devel/manual/points.php#misbehaving
Misbehaving diamond/partial cloverleaf interchanges: Some cases are better handled by putting the point where the ramps connect to the freeway. In this case, the points on the freeway and the cross road will not line up.
The roundabouts off to the side also serve roadways other than the ones at the grade separations. Pretty clear misbehaving parclo as I see it.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on November 21, 2021, 03:28:56 pm
fraoccd32 - Gers  Routes Départementales will be in preview with the next site update. More than 330 routes for about 2,100 miles.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: yakra on November 22, 2021, 01:58:32 pm
For D809-12 (https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=fraocc.d080912&lat=44.255829&lon=3.059065&zoom=16), recommend adding points for D2-12Vez & D94-12Ver.
These roads having their own intersections is enough to pull this away from 1PPI IMO.
This way, a traveler going between these 2 routes could still count some distance on D809.

Similar cases:
https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=al.us098&lat=30.655763&lon=-87.911836&zoom=16
https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=me.me026agra&lat=43.883039&lon=-70.338914&zoom=15
https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=me.me069&lat=44.784637&lon=-69.105034&zoom=15
https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=nh.nh140&lat=43.4551&lon=-71.567602&zoom=15
https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=pa.pa044&lat=41.015173&lon=-76.491159&zoom=15
...and I'm sure there are many more
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on November 22, 2021, 02:26:15 pm
These roads having their own intersections is enough to pull this away from 1PPI IMO.
This way, a traveler going between these 2 routes could still count some distance on D809.

I went this way in the past but changed my mind over the years. What does the manual say on this? Or is it up to the region maintainer?
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: yakra on November 22, 2021, 05:35:58 pm
What does the manual say on this? Or is it up to the region maintainer?

All I'm finding is:
Quote from: https://travelmapping.net/devel/manual/points.php#unusual_shapes
Some interchanges have unusual shapes or are stretched-out versions of normal interchanges. Use your best judgment.
Which it would appear is what you're doing. :D Up to the maintainer either way, I guess?

Point placement guidelines on that page just focus on interchanges. As for at-grades?
If the Interstate weren't there (https://historicaerials.com/location/43.455100/-71.567602/1956/16), US3, NH11 & NH140 would clearly take the shape they do. Or even with the earlier configuration of the interchange (https://historicaerials.com/location/43.455100/-71.567602/1998/16).
ME I-95 63 has undergone such a change during the TravelMapping days. Originally on US202 etc, ME26_N was an obviously separate point from the I-95 trumpet (https://historicaerials.com/location/43.883538/-70.336157/2015/16).

Might be worth an Instructions & Discussions thread?
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on November 23, 2021, 12:12:30 pm
Might be worth an Instructions & Discussions thread?

I don't think so. Or is anyone else bothered?
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: yakra on December 03, 2021, 01:59:22 am
FWIW, I wasn't bothered enough to start that thread myself. 8)
As for others, it could be that people just aren't reading this thread because the topic's not relevant to them.
At some point I plan to make an I&D thread about NE: Interstate ending exit numbers (https://forum.travelmapping.net/index.php?topic=3032) -- people might be ignoring that thread because they don't maintain NE, or haven't traveled or don't plan to, or just aren't interested in Nebraska, or...
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: Jim on December 03, 2021, 07:39:00 am
... or just aren't interested in Nebraska, or...

Nebraska. Honestly, it’s not for everyone (https://visitnebraska.com/press-releases/nebraska-tourism-launches-springsummer-campaign-nebraska-honestly-its-not-everyone)
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on December 06, 2021, 03:07:16 pm
fraoccd34 - Hérault Routes Départementales will be in preview with the next site update. More than 800 routes for more than 2,500 miles.

fraoccm34 - Montpellier Méditerranée Métropole Routes Métropolitaines will be in preview with the next site update. Almost 100 routes for more than 200 miles.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on December 21, 2021, 12:37:33 pm
fraoccd31 - Haute-Garonne Routes Départementales will be in preview with the next site update. More than 950 routes for more than 2,500 miles.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on December 22, 2021, 02:29:55 pm
fraoccm31 - Toulouse Métropole Routes Métropolitaines will be in preview with the next site update. More than 100 routes for more than 250 miles.

It's the last system in Occitanie! All will be ready for peer-review from tomorrow :)
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: si404 on September 22, 2022, 06:45:51 am
fraoccm31 - Toulouse Métropole Routes Métropolitaines will be in preview with the next site update. More than 100 routes for more than 250 miles.

It's the last system in Occitanie! All will be ready for peer-review from tomorrow :)
After gestating for 9 months...

Toulouse Métropole Routes Métropolitaines:

M1, M1Dre, M1C, M1D, M1E, M2, M2Ore, M2A, M2B, M2C, M4 - fine

M4ToS - D4/D4C -> D4?

M4D, M14*, M14A, M15 - fine

M15Cug - check D15_Vil location as a relatively long way NE of where OSM has the municipal boundary

M15Mon, M15C, M16, M16F, M18*, M18D, M20*, M23, M24*, M24CuE, M24CuW, M24C, M24D - fine

M35A - check D35A location (surely at municipal boundary at Chemin de Peyre d'Escale?)

M37 - check D37_Dau and D37_Leg locations (surely Daux/Mondonville and Brax/Leguevin borders rather than somewhere random a significant (rather than slight) distance away from them?)

M37F - fine

*routes with stars have transitions to D roads near, but not on, OSM municipal boundaries. Mentioned only when significantly off. I'm going to hold off continuing until this issue is addressed, as it's my main complaint and so if the transition points are confirmed as being in the right place, or moved to the right place, then the review will go a lot quicker.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on September 22, 2022, 12:27:09 pm
*routes with stars have transitions to D roads near, but not on, OSM municipal boundaries. Mentioned only when significantly off. I'm going to hold off continuing until this issue is addressed, as it's my main complaint and so if the transition points are confirmed as being in the right place, or moved to the right place, then the review will go a lot quicker.

As notified in README.md (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/blob/master/hwy_data/FRA-OCC/fraoccd/README.md), there is an official data set for the Haute Garonne (fraoccd31) routes. They are excluding the M routes, thus I had "border points" between the D and M routes. Unfortunately, https://www.teresco.org/tmtools_demos/gisplunge/FRA/Haute_Garonne/ is not available anymore but the latest files (like Haute Garonne) are available under /home/www/yakra/tmtools_demos/gisplunge/FRA/Haute_Garonne though. There should be one file per route, e.g. one wpt file for D1 which has an interuption for M1. However, there are 56 D1 file and only my local copy is one-file. I don't remember how @yakra provided the files to me which I actually used.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: si404 on September 24, 2022, 01:00:17 pm
I'm going to continue, and won't bother with the border points, on the assumption that they will be investigated.

M50, M50Tou, M50D, M50E, M54 - all fine

M57 - does it extend east along M66 to D57?

M57Ore - fine

M59 - M14_E/W -> M14_N/S ?

M59A, M59B, M59E, M61 - all fine

M63 - M2_W/E -> M2_N/S ?

M63A, M63B, M63E, M63G, M63H, M63J, M63W, M63WTou - all fine
M64, M64Aus, M64Bal, M64C, M64D, M64F, M65, M65B, M66, M66D, M66H, M68 - all fine
M70, M70A, M70B, M70E, M70G, M70W, M77, M77Bea, M77A, M77C, M77F, M77G - all fine
M82, M82C, M94, M112, M113 - all fine

M113A - the eastern end is a complex junction. Does the M113A reach the A61? Does the M916 reach the A620? The current situation of mapping both M roads ending at a roundabout with ramps from both Autoroutes (and labelling it on both as the M road, not the higher status A road they haven't had a junction with) seems poor.

M113AToW, M120 - both fine

M120A - M923/D980 -> M923/M980

M120N, M126, M188, M632, M632W, M820, M824, M826, M888, M901, M902 - all fine

M904B - add point for Rue Leon Jounaux to match point on M63W

M914 - fine

M916
 - M113A -> A620 and move? (see M113A)
 - add point for GSJ with Rue des Cosmonautes

M923 - fine

M924 - N124 -> N224

M924A, M964, M980 - all fine
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on September 24, 2022, 03:24:50 pm
I'm going to continue, and won't bother with the border points, on the assumption that they will be investigated.

Investigated by whom? I positioned non-region-border-wps to the best of my knowledge when drafting the routes. At shp file location, at a sign, at a km post/stone, change in pavement or - if no other source - where OSM indicates the border. Not so accurate from the very beginning (first systems drafted) but OCC routes for sure. I'm not sure how important the exact locations are as long as they are between the right junction wps. I agree on region (especially country) border location accuracy but departement borders are less important IMO. I won't check them again as I spent a lot of time on it when drafting.

Edit: It's "funny" (= sad) that shp file locations (most reliable source) are often not confirmed by actual situation on-site (GSV) :(
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: si404 on October 07, 2022, 09:45:41 am
Investigated by whom?
By you.

Quote
I positioned non-region-border-wps to the best of my knowledge when drafting the routes. At shp file location, at a sign, at a km post/stone, change in pavement or - if no other source - where OSM indicates the border. Not so accurate from the very beginning (first systems drafted) but OCC routes for sure.
Fine then. That explains OSM showing the border at logical boundaries like streams, and you were having it at some seemingly random point 10 or 20 metres away.

I don't think we ever had this issue on other systems, even those drafted earlier. Though here we're looking at a lower status boundary than departmental ones.
Quote
I'm not sure how important the exact locations are as long as they are between the right junction wps. I agree on region (especially country) border location accuracy but departement borders are less important IMO.
Fair enough.

Though if exact locations don't matter much, then why bother going to the effort of doing signs, km posts, pavement changes, etc rather than just doing the easy thing of using the OSM boundary? Your behaviour suggests that the exact location does matter to you!
Quote
I won't check them again as I spent a lot of time on it when drafting.
OK, if you are sure. I think its worth double checking where there's a decent discrepancy between OSM and your data (ie the ones I mention explicitly, rather than just star).
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on October 07, 2022, 12:06:56 pm
Your behaviour suggests that the exact location does matter to you!

It was important to me till I realized that shp file data (most reliable source about actual maintenance boundaries) does often not match the actual signage. Nevertheless, I didn't give up trying to draft the boundaries to the best of my knowledge. But then, it was in OCC - Hautes-Pyrénées and Haute-Garonne if memory serves - where shp file coords of one departement did not match the shp file coords of the other departement  :pan: The coords overlapped each other :pan: Which data is correct? Where should I locate the wps? What can be more reliable than shp files?
That's why departement boundary wp locations are not very important to me anymore. We often just talk about some meter or some hundreds meter at maximum. All in the same region...

I think its worth double checking where there's a decent discrepancy between OSM and your data (ie the ones I mention explicitly, rather than just star).

Yep, I will check whatever you explicitly mention :)
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on October 21, 2022, 03:04:14 pm
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/6083

M15Cug - check D15_Vil location as a relatively long way NE of where OSM has the municipal boundary

Exact coords from D15's shp file of Haute Garonne. There are eleven shp file points between it and where OSM indicates the border.

M35A - check D35A location (surely at municipal boundary at Chemin de Peyre d'Escale?)

Same here but 18 shp file points in-between.

M37 - check D37_Dau and D37_Leg locations (surely Daux/Mondonville and Brax/Leguevin borders rather than somewhere random a significant (rather than slight) distance away from them?)

Same.

M57 - does it extend east along M66 to D57?

No evidence on April 2022 GSV - neither western junction (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6183917,1.5836834,3a,75y,335.93h,80.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRTSZQpLafGH_tL-IGXBxeg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) nor eastern junction (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6169235,1.5872859,3a,75y,266.48h,73.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swtsKsixCSzn4NIrMlHVr0g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).

M63 - M2_W/E -> M2_N/S ?

No, M63 is a NS route

M113A - the eastern end is a complex junction. Does the M113A reach the A61? Does the M916 reach the A620? The current situation of mapping both M roads ending at a roundabout with ramps from both Autoroutes (and labelling it on both as the M road, not the higher status A road they haven't had a junction with) seems poor.

M916's km0 is at the roundabout (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=43.557941&lon=1.492231) according to February 2022 GSV (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5578847,1.4927612,3a,17y,24.09h,88.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDyhD7MGZpalWjJhpBouDtw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) and I kept the graph connection with the motorways this way. The only other option I could imagine is having a 1PPI by moving A61's and A620's wps to the roundabout too.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on October 21, 2022, 03:59:56 pm
Jim run an update, the changes (all but BFC-90) are live now :)
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on October 24, 2022, 03:51:14 pm
Further comments on fraoccm31 Toulouse Métropole Routes Métropolitaines before activation?
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: si404 on October 24, 2022, 05:13:54 pm
If you've done the due diligence (looks like you have) then I have nothing more to say.
Title: Re: fraoccdXX: Occitanie Routes Départementales
Post by: michih on October 25, 2022, 01:43:35 pm
fraoccm31 - Toulouse Métropole Routes Métropolitaines will be activated with the next site update.