Author Topic: NY Truck Routes Redux  (Read 8845 times)

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Offline vdeane

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NY Truck Routes Redux
« on: December 22, 2019, 04:47:29 pm »
While looking in street view to prepare myself for a clinching trip tomorrow, I stumbled across Truck NY 429 (or, if the take the signage literally, New Truck NY 429).  It follows Robinson and Oliver Streets in North Tonawanda between NY 384/NY 265 and NY 429.  I thought I'd use this opportunity to produce a new summary of the signed truck routes not in TM, and perhaps we might finally decide what to do with these, either deleting most/all of the ones currently in the system, or adding the remaining known ones.

-Truck NY 25 (Mattituck): Franklinville Road, Aldrich Lane, Sound Avenue, North Road to Greenport
-Truck NY 25 (Greenport): Moores Lane, North Road
-Truck NY 27 (Brooklyn): 10th Street, McDonald Avenue, Church Avenue
-Truck NY 32 (Glens Falls): Oakland Avenue
-Truck NY 96 (Candor): NY 96B, Mill Street
-Bypass NY 125 (Scarsdale): Scarsdale Bypass
-Truck NY 340 (Sparkill): William Street, Main Street
-Truck NY 354 (Bennington): connector roads to NY 77
-Truck NY 429 (North Tonawanda): Robinson Street, Oliver Street
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Offline yakra

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Re: NY Truck Routes Redux
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2020, 05:04:43 pm »
Previous topics
Status of NY Truck Routes
NY 25 Truck missing
NY96 Truck in Candor
NY 354 Truck Route in Bennington



Items not included in the OP
-Truck NY 14 (Elmira): Clemens Center Parkway, Grand Central Avenue, McCanns Boulevard
-Truck NY 17C (Waverly): Broad Street Extension, William Donnelly Indus Parkway (not sure if this one counts; Bing streetside only shows "Truck Route" signs, not "Truck NY 17C" or "Truck Route NY 17C", but I've heard Region 9 refer to it as Truck NY 17C before)



The problem
Ultimately, it comes down to the question of if the truck routes should be in the system.  NYSDOT Main Office doesn't consider them official and has no inventory of them.  They're signed by a mix of municipalities and the Regions and I'm not aware of an inventory at the regional level either.  Signage isn't consistent either; while some are the traditional bannered "Truck NY (or US) XX", others are "Truck Route NY XX" (often the route number only appears on the first sign directing trucks on the route and the other turns and reassurance shields are simply "Truck Route") or simply "Truck Route".
The gist of it is thus: NYSDOT does not officially recognize the existence of truck routes. Where signage for them exists, it is always put up by a municipal or county government. So it is highly questionable that truck routes in NY actually count as state routes. There is generally no official source other than signage to go by for them.
...And when we have signage, it often leaves a lot to be desired.



Routes in more detail

NY14Trk (Elmira)
Right out of the gate, we have an example of the "simply 'Truck Route'" signage vdeane mentions. It's a truck route, yes, but there's not much indication it's a particularly NY14 flavored one. I did manage to find a single NY14 shield in Bing, for the turn from McCanns to Grand Central. Which is only useful if you've already turned onto McCanns. GMSVing around the north end, I don't see any indication of a truck route intersecting at all. At the south end, the signed truck route also follows NY14 itself. :(

NY17CTrk (Waverly)
I did find one shield, but similar here, I see no indication of a truck route intersecting at the east end, only some reassurance for trucks that have already turned onto it. Turns are signed only "Truck Route".

NY25Trk
I'm not convinced there's 2 different sections. Starting at the E end, there's obvious signage at least. But when we get to Moores Ln, signage there doesn't direct us to turn. It's placed just after the junction, and looks like regular reassurance signage. Continuing ahead, there are similar assemblies at/near many major junctions. Eventually, we do hit this (there's even one in the opposite direction), but that's a bit different from a Truck 25 directional, innit? I see no NY25Trk signage on or at the end of Wickham, or at its junction with NY25 proper. Keep going and you'll see another NY25Trk assembly. And then finally, END CR48 with no indication of what's become of the truck route. I see no signage for a turn to or from, or on, Aldrich Ln, and nothing at the alleged mainline NY25 connection in Laurel. A fanciful assumed connection added by an overzealous OSM editor?
Meanwhile back at Moores Ln, I'd almost be ready to discount this shield as a botched attempt at a TO ("The junction is this way!"), except for two shields on the road itself. :( Nothing indicating a truck route when approaching from the other direction. Back at the north end at CR48, there's nothing indicating which direction to turn to follow the truck route, or even that we're intersecting one.

NY27Trk (Brooklyn)
I can't find any WB signage for either the truck route or even the  turns for NY27 proper. EB, I see TO EAST NY27 at McDonald and then Caton, and nothing at Church.

NY32Trk (Glens Falls) has clear signage with NY32 shields, directing trucks away from mainline NY32.
NY96Trk (Candor) looks straightforward enough. I've made up some files on my local machine but not pushed to GitHub.
NY125Byp (Scarsdale) is discussed here.
NY340Trk (Sparkill) is signed with a NY340 shield at William, but I don't see anything at and Main.

NY354Trk (Bennington)
Bypassing a posted bridge? How very Pennsylvanian! This one would make a mockery of One Point Per Interchange, and beg for the NY77/NY354 graph connection to be removed, as if the NY354Trk connection were included, that would more accurately depict things. And then, would this only be a a temporary route, removed when the bridge is replaced? Ow, my stomach.

NY429Trk (North Tonawanda)
Looks straightforward enough. I've made up some files on my local machine but not pushed to GitHub.



A proposal?
...to attempt to get some objective minimum criteria for when to include a route.
  • Must connect to the parent route at both ends, or end at the route where the parent route itself terminates (as e.g. NY9PTrk (Saratoga Springs) or NY429Trk (North Tonawanda)).
  • There must be signage directing trucks off the mainline route at each end, with a route number shield.
  • All turns at junctions must be signed (except where the road like just kinda curves a bit & the main thru movement is obvious). I don't care much about whether a number shield is required, or just a Truck Route sign is sufficient
From the sound of cl94's description, this would still allow NY354Trk (Bennington). That gives me a little indigestion...

How would this affect existing routes?
NY5TrkSch would just barely not make the cut. Signage is missing at this one crucial junction. Well signed otherwise.
NY9PTrkSar would stay. This one is among the best signed.
NY14TrkGen would stay. Almost as well signed.
NY19TrkBro would stay.
NY29TrkSar is out. There's no signage approaching it at its E end. Annoying that we'd get one Saratoga Springs truck route but not the other.
NY30TrkSch is signed SB only. Nothing at the S End at all. Perhaps the concern is runaway trucks, and climbing the grade is less a concern?
NY298TrkSyr is well signed in the east, but gets sketchier near the west end. No signage here, not even for US11. Continuing, we find a suspiciously route shield-sized gap that's been there at least 9 years unless the sign's now been magically replaced. There's no signage to make this same turn in the opposite direction. If this route were to stay in the HB, it'd need a relocation off US11. What first clued me in was this sign. (Maddeningly, if I only had that to go on, and NY298 proper had just been a right turn, I'd turn the wrong way.)

What if, for the sake of allowing NY30, we tweak the criteria to allow routes signed only in one direction? One-way routes exist... That'd also give us back NY17CTrkWav (EB), NY5TrkSch (WB), and NY298TrkSyr (WB, though annoyingly, we reach NY298 proper with no signage telling us we've done so and that it's time to turn onto it). NY29TrkSar is a bit more iffy, depending on how much we'd want to count some TO NY29 (rather than Truck NY29 or even "Truck Route") signage.

All this being said, I think the idea of dropping the truck routes altogether bothers me less and less.

Opinions?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 09:43:29 am by yakra »
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Offline Jim

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Re: NY Truck Routes Redux
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2020, 07:58:15 pm »
Opinions?

I continue to be solidly in favor of removing them (along with all of usaif, but that's a topic for another thread).

Offline yakra

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Re: NY Truck Routes Redux
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2020, 09:35:19 pm »
Lol, I've been thinking of getting the ball rolling on that thread too, and have a load of Firefox tabs still open. I'll try to stay on topic here. ;)
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Offline Duke87

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Re: NY Truck Routes Redux
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2020, 06:55:48 pm »
Opinions?

I continue to be solidly in favor of removing them (along with all of usaif, but that's a topic for another thread).

As do I.

Think it's worth taking a look into other states that have state route truck routes as well. If lack of any organized official recognition from the state DOT is our reason for exclusion, this criterion should be applied consistently.

Online cl94

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Re: NY Truck Routes Redux
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2020, 08:00:35 pm »
I'd be fine dropping them. I'm on the "truck routes shouldn't be necessary to clinch a state" train anyway, but New York is so inconsistent with truck routes that there is no real standard for what to include. I also am of the opinion that you include everything that otherwise meets TM inclusion standards or include nothing. In the case of NY truck routes, I lean toward "include none".

NY 32 TRUCK in Glens Falls is a relic from before the roundabout was constructed, as trucks were prohibited from making that turn. I have no idea if Glens Falls even considers that route to still exist.

NY 354 TRUCK...yeah, that's a Pennsylvania scenario and an oddity among NY truck routes in that it's entirely state-maintained and bypasses a segment of road that is also entirely state-maintained. I wouldn't have those PA truck routes either, but my general feeling is that "if we have other NY truck routes and there's a precedent for including bridge bypasses...". IMO, you'd need to kill all of the NY truck routes to remove the necessary precedent.

Offline rickmastfan67

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Re: NY Truck Routes Redux
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2020, 08:54:14 pm »
I'm in favor of keeping NY US20TrkSil as-is.  It's always been well posted.

Online Markkos1992

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Re: NY Truck Routes Redux
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2020, 09:24:51 pm »
I am fine with dropping truck routes altogether.  My justification for including them came from a post by Tim on AARoads from 2014.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=11398.msg271919#msg271919)

 


Offline vdeane

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Re: NY Truck Routes Redux
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2020, 05:56:13 pm »
Wow.  Looking at this analysis, the truck routes are even more loosey-goosey than I thought.  Of course, some of this affects locally signed touring routes (good luck following US 11 through Syracuse, for example) as well.  The simplest answer is probably just to not have them.

Meanwhile back at Moores Ln, I'd almost be ready to discount this shield as a botched attempt at a TO ("The junction is this way!"), except for two shields on the road itself. :( Nothing indicating a truck route when approaching from the other direction.
There's this, though the sign for the turn itself is missing per street view.

Quote
NY5TrkSch would just barely not make the cut. Signage is missing at this one crucial junction. Well signed otherwise.
That one junction seems to have fallen through the cracks when the interchange was reconfigured.  It was there before.  I might want to mention this if I remember it on Monday.

I'm in favor of keeping NY US20TrkSil as-is.  It's always been well posted.
That one at least is entirely on the state system; the part that isn't concurrent with NY 5 is a reference route.  Business US 219 east of Salamanca is similar.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Online cl94

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Re: NY Truck Routes Redux
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2020, 07:10:33 pm »
I'm in favor of keeping NY US20TrkSil as-is.  It's always been well posted.
That one at least is entirely on the state system; the part that isn't concurrent with NY 5 is a reference route.  Business US 219 east of Salamanca is similar.

Speaking of Business US 219, I'd assume killing the truck routes means we wouldn't be getting rid of Business NY 52 in Beacon. That route is relatively well-posted.

TRUCK US 20...like TRUCK NY 354, it's entirely on the state system, but unlike TRUCK NY 354, I think it's worth including on TM.

Offline Duke87

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Re: NY Truck Routes Redux
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2020, 08:44:47 pm »
I'm in favor of keeping NY US20TrkSil as-is.  It's always been well posted.

As I understand it the scope of this discussion is truck routes in usany. Anything in usausb should stay, yes.

Offline rickmastfan67

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Re: NY Truck Routes Redux
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2020, 12:24:02 am »
I'm in favor of keeping NY US20TrkSil as-is.  It's always been well posted.

As I understand it the scope of this discussion is truck routes in usany. Anything in usausb should stay, yes.

I thought I'd at least mention it, just to play it safe.

Offline yakra

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Re: NY Truck Routes Redux
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2020, 08:22:04 am »
That was my thinking, yes. Just the truck banners, in usany.
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Offline yakra

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Re: NY Truck Routes Redux
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2020, 10:09:00 am »
Checking out what is & is not on the state system in the SimplifiedStreetSegmentQrt shapefiles, I see some of the local, non-reference-route segments shown:
NY19TrkBro: SHIELD = S; HighwayNum = 19; Label = West Ave Truck
NY32TrkGle: SHIELD = S; HighwayNum = 32
NY298TrkSyr: SHIELD = S; HighwayNum = 298
Not that we should consider this a definitive source, with only this small minority of routes shown.

NY340Trk (Sparkill) is signed with a NY340 shield at William, but I don't see anything at Main.
Nope! The HB has NY340 wrong! Per TDV, MilepointRoute2015 and GMSV, NY340 follows Union & Main rather than Valentine & Piermont (SimplifiedStreetSegmentQrt annoyingly shows NY340 on both routes). With this knowledge I was able to find a NY340Trk sign. Previous post edited; time to edit NY340...
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 02:42:44 pm by yakra »
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Offline yakra

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Re: NY Truck Routes Redux
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2020, 02:50:29 pm »
OK, opinions looks pretty unanimous, including the 3 people I was hoping to see weigh in.

Before I pull the switch... waypoint labels?
Originally, some labels referred to truck routes, and some referred to local road names. I recently "fixed" some to use NY##Trk style.
Makes less sense to use these labels with the truck routes themselves not in the HB.
Will be switching over to local road names for any labels with "Trk".
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