Author Topic: The tier concept  (Read 10103 times)

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Offline yakra

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The tier concept
« on: February 07, 2021, 10:37:09 am »
I've kind of downplayed the idea of the tiers on the user point of view.  Maybe others think differently, but I don't care of a route is a tier 2 or a tier 3, as they seem pretty arbitrarily assigned as CHM and then TM expanded highway coverage.
I agree with this. I've had the idea (forget whether ever posted about it) about getting rid of tiers entirely -- tiers as currently implemented still don't allow routes to always sort deterministically, e.g. usaus vs usaib -- and instead sorting by color. At the time I checked it out (2017, 2018?) there was a clear color hierarchy that held site-wide.
However, the recent addition of more colors (even if none of them are used in systems.csv yet) throws a wrench into this.
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Offline Jim

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Re: The tier concept
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2021, 11:06:12 am »
Am I correct that the only place tiers are used in a meaningful way is in mapview to draw concurrent segments with the color of the lowest-tier/most-significant route?

Offline yakra

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Re: The tier concept
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2021, 11:32:42 am »
Is it still used as a sort criterion in the HB & userpages?
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Offline michih

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Re: The tier concept
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2021, 01:00:35 pm »
Is it still used as a sort criterion in the HB & userpages?

I sometimes sort them manually by tiers because I want to "filter" them to see freeway systems only.

Offline mapcat

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Re: The tier concept
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2021, 01:36:31 pm »
Is it still used as a sort criterion in the HB & userpages?

I sometimes sort them manually by tiers because I want to "filter" them to see freeway systems only.

Right, this is what I was picturing. A user with extensive European travels who wanted to see/compare all clinched freeways in the list.
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Offline yakra

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Re: The tier concept
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2021, 02:16:38 pm »
how about the idea of sorting/filtering by color?
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Offline michih

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Re: The tier concept
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2021, 02:29:16 pm »
how about the idea of sorting/filtering by color?

Blue and teal? And using both for freeways only? And don't allow using them by users who can currently modify the colors by themselves?

Offline mapcat

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Re: The tier concept
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2021, 05:13:52 pm »
how about the idea of sorting/filtering by color?

If that’s simpler, sure.

And per michih’s comment, the best solution would allow for selecting multiple colors for a single list.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 05:24:07 pm by mapcat »
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Offline vdeane

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Re: The tier concept
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2021, 06:30:13 pm »
Tiers are useful for setting custom colors in Mapview.  For example, when I put together some hypothetical scenarios, I just used tier 4 and tier 5 and then set exceptions for specific systems.  Much easier than defining a color for 50 state systems!

At the time I checked it out (2017, 2018?) there was a clear color hierarchy that held site-wide.
That's no longer true.  See: Australia and Europe.  Light salmon is tier 4 in Europe and tier 5 in Australia, and the reverse is true for yellow.

Is it still used as a sort criterion in the HB & userpages?
Yep.  The HB sorts by country/continent, then by tier, then by system.  Region.php and the route list in Mapview are similar.  The display of routes in usanyp and usasf within NY illustrates it.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Offline Duke87

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Re: The tier concept
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2021, 09:37:30 pm »
tiers as currently implemented still don't allow routes to always sort deterministically, e.g. usaus vs usaib

It looks like usaib stacks on top of usaus when routes between the two are concurrent - what makes this happen? Alphabetical order?

Offline yakra

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Re: The tier concept
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2021, 10:40:13 pm »
Blue and teal? And using both for freeways only? And don't allow using them by users who can currently modify the colors by themselves?
None of this makes sense to me. Rephrase?

Tiers are useful for setting custom colors in Mapview.  For example, when I put together some hypothetical scenarios, I just used tier 4 and tier 5 and then set exceptions for specific systems.  Much easier than defining a color for 50 state systems!
The colors themselves can also be redefined, right? It could also be done that way, yes?

At the time I checked it out (2017, 2018?) there was a clear color hierarchy that held site-wide.
That's no longer true.  See: Australia and Europe.  Light salmon is tier 4 in Europe and tier 5 in Australia, and the reverse is true for yellow.
Indeed. Rather than questioning whether it's appropriate (Did AUS get its colors via the "color of the shield" concept?), I'll acknowledge this alone is enough to put the kibosh on the idea of ditching tiers in favor of sorting/filtering by colors. ...Mark solved?

tiers as currently implemented still don't allow routes to always sort deterministically, e.g. usaus vs usaib
It looks like usaib stacks on top of usaus when routes between the two are concurrent
Interesting. It was non-deterministic in the past, back before the big changes for scrollable mapview. Maybe things changed then.

what makes this happen? Alphabetical order?
Jim?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 01:45:21 pm by yakra »
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Offline Jim

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Re: The tier concept
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2021, 11:04:27 pm »
This might be getting into more than we want right now, but instead of arbitrarily-numbered tiers, perhaps it makes more sense to have named categories that make sense in each part of the world along with a partial ordering that defines how they get prioritized on maps and in lists.

Offline yakra

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Re: The tier concept
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2021, 12:43:21 am »
A bit rich for my blood. I'm satisfied that the existence of tiers is justified now.
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Offline michih

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Re: The tier concept
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2021, 06:15:31 am »
Blue and teal? And using both for freeways only? And don't allow using them by users who can currently modify the colors by themselves?
None of this makes sense to me. Rephrase?

I wanted to say that I want to filter for freeways / motorways. There are two colors / tiers for them in Europe. And I wanted to point out that users can change the colors.

This might be getting into more than we want right now, but instead of arbitrarily-numbered tiers, perhaps it makes more sense to have named categories that make sense in each part of the world along with a partial ordering that defines how they get prioritized on maps and in lists.

Motorways/Freeways, International Routes and trunk roads?

Tier 1: Motorways
All official road networks which usually fulfill the Vienna convention for road standard. There can be some routes which do not fully fulfill the road standard, e.g. German A62 which has partially one carriageway only. Here, the dedication with A numbering is used and A62 is not excluded from the system.

Tier 2: International routes
All official international road networks

Tier 3: Trunk roads
Highest highway networks

Offline si404

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Re: The tier concept
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2021, 06:59:15 am »
This might be getting into more than we want right now, but instead of arbitrarily-numbered tiers, perhaps it makes more sense to have named categories that make sense in each part of the world along with a partial ordering that defines how they get prioritized on maps and in lists.
That's what I've been thinking, but not come up with a fully fleshed proposal. Freeway, Continental, State, Local, Tourist with a <name>2 sublayer for each (might as well give them all one, even if only some are used) seems sensible, albeit with the names I've used being rather US-centric.

It also allows the hiding of certain types of routes (eg tourist routes) to be easier too.
At the time I checked it out (2017, 2018?) there was a clear color hierarchy that held site-wide.
That's no longer true.
I'm not sure that was ever true. At least not after E Roads were added as a tier 3 green system in 2009 or whatever.

Lightsalmon in Australia is mostly a place holder system - it's used on the NT Territorial Highways (which is being converted to alphanumeric) to separate them from the C roads (which are grey), and the Melbourne Metropolitan Routes (vs Victoria C roads) too. I can change the colour to grey, but I've just not bothered doing it - the lightsalmon meaning different things in different parts of the world is less of an issue, IMV, than grey meaning different things within the same region.