Author Topic: Japan: National Highways 一般国道 system  (Read 2715 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline michih

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3538
  • Last Login:Today at 02:59:09 pm
Re: Japan: National Highways 一般国道 system
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2021, 11:31:43 am »
I've found a lot of sections where N1 runs beneath an expressway, connecting with the overhead expressway at a series of ICs.  How do I prevent concurrencies between N1 and the expressway?  Add routing waypoints to N1 between the ICs?   Nudge the N1 waypoints over a little, causing NMPs?

Just add a visible (or hidden) wp to one of the routes to break the concurrency.

We often implemented another option in the past by moving one wp off for a route by 0.000001° to get a NMP. However, since we show intersecting routes in the HB, we should not implement this anymore.

Offline the_spui_ninja

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 554
  • Last Login:June 20, 2022, 09:54:54 pm
  • THE Western SD Highway Nut
Re: Japan: National Highways 一般国道 system
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2021, 11:22:36 pm »
I've found a lot of sections where N1 runs beneath an expressway, connecting with the overhead expressway at a series of ICs.  How do I prevent concurrencies between N1 and the expressway?  Add routing waypoints to N1 between the ICs?   Nudge the N1 waypoints over a little, causing NMPs?
Either of those should work; I'm not sure what is the preferred method.
An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered. - G.K. Chesterton

Offline Markkos1992

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2425
  • Last Login:June 25, 2022, 07:12:04 am
Re: Japan: National Highways 一般国道 system
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2021, 02:23:14 am »
I've found a lot of sections where N1 runs beneath an expressway, connecting with the overhead expressway at a series of ICs.  How do I prevent concurrencies between N1 and the expressway?  Add routing waypoints to N1 between the ICs?   Nudge the N1 waypoints over a little, causing NMPs?
Either of those should work; I'm not sure what is the preferred method.

Definitely adding shaping points between interchanges at this point for more graph connections.  I think a past example of nudging waypoints over a little can still be seen on I-65/US 31 in Indiana just north of Louisville.

Offline nezinscot

  • TM Collaborator
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 88
  • Last Login:Yesterday at 08:46:26 pm
Re: Japan: National Highways 一般国道 system
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2021, 10:34:01 am »
Thanks for the info.  I have been using hidden waypoints, so I will continue to do so.  I was concerned because in a few cases I have had to add hidden waypoints between every IC.

I have another complication with expressways over surface roads.  Expressway E89 between Osaka and Kyoto is also a bypass of N1.  E89 is a toll road and the surface road beneath it, also labeled N1 is free.  The surface road has many additional waypoints.  Should I make two separate N1 entries for the bypass.

And it gets more complicated.  E88 is also an N1 bypass.  The surface road beneath it, also marked N1, is only present at the ends of E88 (there is a long tunnel between).  Plus the west end surface road marked N1 begins west of the west end of E88, and the east end N1 surface road continues past the east end of E88.  Are there three N1 bypass entries here?

Offline yakra

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3846
  • Last Login:Today at 08:03:56 am
Re: Japan: National Highways 一般国道 system
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2021, 11:57:35 am »
I've found a lot of sections where N1 runs beneath an expressway, connecting with the overhead expressway at a series of ICs.  How do I prevent concurrencies between N1 and the expressway?  Add routing waypoints to N1 between the ICs?
I'd recommend this.
Sri Syadasti Syadavaktavya Syadasti Syannasti Syadasti Cavaktavyasca Syadasti Syannasti Syadavatavyasca Syadasti Syannasti Syadavaktavyasca

Offline Markkos1992

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2425
  • Last Login:June 25, 2022, 07:12:04 am
Re: Japan: National Highways 一般国道 system
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2021, 07:46:15 pm »
yakra, how did you decide on what to do in regards to Toll 183 vs US 183?  Are both truly part of US 183?

Offline yakra

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3846
  • Last Login:Today at 08:03:56 am
Re: Japan: National Highways 一般国道 system
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2021, 04:08:15 am »
Not sure if you meant to post that in another thread.
Toll 183 is not included. None of the TX toll routes paralleling a same-numbered route in a mainline/frontage setup are.
Sri Syadasti Syadavaktavya Syadasti Syannasti Syadasti Cavaktavyasca Syadasti Syannasti Syadavatavyasca Syadasti Syannasti Syadavaktavyasca

Offline Markkos1992

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2425
  • Last Login:June 25, 2022, 07:12:04 am
Re: Japan: National Highways 一般国道 system
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2021, 07:25:04 am »
Not sure if you meant to post that in another thread.
Toll 183 is not included. None of the TX toll routes paralleling a same-numbered route in a mainline/frontage setup are.

I was just wondering how related that could be to nezinscot's situation.  It probably is not, but it sounds similar.

Offline yakra

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3846
  • Last Login:Today at 08:03:56 am
Re: Japan: National Highways 一般国道 system
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2021, 11:04:38 am »
There are other cases. First that comes to mind is US183 & TX130.
I broke up the not-concurrencies with shaping points via a custom tool.
That might be a bit rich for most people's blood; another option for keeping the divergences to a minimum is to double-click on the existing polyline in wptedit to center before adding a new point.
Sri Syadasti Syadavaktavya Syadasti Syannasti Syadasti Cavaktavyasca Syadasti Syannasti Syadavatavyasca Syadasti Syannasti Syadavaktavyasca

Offline michih

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3538
  • Last Login:Today at 02:59:09 pm
Re: Japan: National Highways 一般国道 system
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2022, 02:42:47 am »
I'll follow your advice about using devel-only systems to split up the work.

I think jpnh should be the system name for the national highways.

Devel-only systems can be used for each island, or island section for Honshu. They can be swept into jpnh as they are completed.
   jpnhky - Kyushu and Okinawa
   jpnhsh - Shikoku
   jpnhhk - Hokkaido
   jpnhkt - Kanto (east Honshu / Tokyo)
   jpnhks - Kansai (west Honshu / Osaka)

Why don't you bring your systems to preview status? I mean, the basic idea of splitting systems during development phase is that we can promote it earlier to preview and make it visible (stats, mapview) for users. If you think that "jpnhky" is complete, it should go to preview!

Offline nezinscot

  • TM Collaborator
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 88
  • Last Login:Yesterday at 08:46:26 pm
Re: Japan: National Highways 一般国道 system
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2022, 09:16:25 am »
I was waiting for a second pass thru the systems but that is likely a long way in the future because doing Honshu is a big task.  So, I will take your advice and promote the pieces that are done.  Should I only promote jpnh to preview and fill it with what is done, or should I promote all the completed systems?

Offline michih

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3538
  • Last Login:Today at 02:59:09 pm
Re: Japan: National Highways 一般国道 system
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2022, 09:34:53 am »
I was waiting for a second pass thru the systems but that is likely a long way in the future because doing Honshu is a big task.  So, I will take your advice and promote the pieces that are done.  Should I only promote jpnh to preview and fill it with what is done, or should I promote all the completed systems?

I don't understand why you already have a jpnh system in devel. I thought that you've split the future system into individual systems per island. The individual systems can be promoted to preview status when they are complete. Incomplete systems should stay in devel (except of special "select systems" we don't have in Japan). Once all individual systems are complete, you can merge the systems into one again.

Offline nezinscot

  • TM Collaborator
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 88
  • Last Login:Yesterday at 08:46:26 pm
Re: Japan: National Highways 一般国道 system
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2022, 10:16:09 pm »
jpnhky - national highways in Kyushu and Okinawa - is now in preview mode.

83 highways / 215 routes
4564 miles

If you were ever stationed at Sasebo or in Okinawa you probably have driven some of these roads.

Offline yakra

  • TM Collaborator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3846
  • Last Login:Today at 08:03:56 am
Re: Japan: National Highways 一般国道 system
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2022, 01:36:14 pm »
N329BypHae
There's only one intersection with E58, so E58(A1) should become E58 or E58/N506.
WRT Byp as a banner, is this appropriate? The route may functionally be a bypass, but a banner should really only be included if it's an official part (usually signed) of the designation. If Japan does use (and sign?) such a designation, what's the JP word they use?
(Just watch it be English...)
Sri Syadasti Syadavaktavya Syadasti Syannasti Syadasti Cavaktavyasca Syadasti Syannasti Syadavatavyasca Syadasti Syannasti Syadavaktavyasca

Offline nezinscot

  • TM Collaborator
  • Jr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 88
  • Last Login:Yesterday at 08:46:26 pm
Re: Japan: National Highways 一般国道 system
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2022, 08:15:57 pm »
I will update the E58(A1) waypoint name to E58.

As for bypasses, its complicated, like many things Japanese.  Almost every expressway and many urban national highways in Japan are built from a set of connected "bypasses". A new section of road usually has its own bypass name.  They actually use the katakana version of the word "Bypass".  What we would consider a bypass in the US will also have bypass in its name.  I spend a lot of time trying to figure out what the bypass name of a road segment is because most online info uses the bypass name and not the national highway designation.

I've done about 60% of the national highways so far, and have identified four types of road segments. 

1) The current road (the main line).  Originally the national highways went right through towns, but over time bypasses have been built to widen the road or avoid town centers and other obstacles, and the current road moved to the bypasses.
2) Old roads.  When the original route is replaced by a bypass, usually the old route is transferred to the prefecture or city and given a local designation.  (This transfer may take several years, so new bypasses are often associated with "temporary" old road sections.)  But in some cases, the original route retains it national highway designation, so there are two routes with the same designation.
3) Bypasses.  These are built usually to avoid town centers or other areas of heavy traffic.  They are not old roads and they are not the current road.  They often connect at both ends with the current road or another national highway.  I believe "Byp" is the correct banner for these roads.
4) Spurs and connectors.  They connect the current road, old road, or a bypass to another road, often an expressway.

There is some degree of ambiguity. Sometimes its tough to determine which is the current road and which is the bypass, or which is the current road and which is the old road.  True bypasses and spurs are usually pretty obvious.

Japan does not sign its bypasses, old roads, or spurs any differently than it does current roads - they all get the blue rice ball sign with a number on it.  Sometimes an overhead sign will indicate which route is the bypass, or the old road, but this is not prevalent.

There are also national highway bypass designations on many expressways, typically those that are free and were built with prefectural money.  These bypasses usually do not have national highway signage because in general, Japan does not multi-sign concurrencies.