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General Tier 5 system(s) for European roads?
michih:
See previous discussion in the autb thread: http://tm.teresco.org/forum/index.php?topic=376.msg2154#msg2154.
Summary: Tier 4 systems have recently been drafted for many (Central) European countries but there are some gaps on "important" routes.
The gaps are caused because the route is:
1. a "touristic" route with lower classification
E.g. Alps Passes, see wikipedia list
2. a private (toll) road
E.g. the important transit Felbertauern Strasse (no Alps pass but tunnel), Großglockner Hochalpenstraße (Alps pass) or Silvretta Hochalpenstraße (Alps pass)
3. continued in a neighboring country with lower classification (usually short segments)
There are many b/n DEU/AUT, AUT/CHE, CHE/FRA, DEU/AUT,... Or gaps b/n tier 1 and tier 4 routes which are do not fulfil eursf standard.
4. part of a theoretical tier 5 system (which will likely never be drafted) but still important
E.g. St2622 north of Passau (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=48.688467&lon=13.423233), St2580 Flughafentangente Ost (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=48.335399&lon=11.866136), L76 south of Berlin (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.367424&lon=13.402977) which closes the gap b/n eursf L40 and B96a or L1115 Autobahnzubringer Backnang (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=48.982477&lon=9.325751).
I made a suggestion that we could draft a new tier 5 system "Europe Alps Passes" (eurap).
It would be similar to the existing gbrtr or cannss systems.
Pros:
- There's a clear list of routes on wikipedia
- No big discussion expected about routes to be added
Cons:
- It's only a solution for routes from 1. and some from 2.
- It only covers the Alps in AUT, CHE, DEU, FRA, ITA and SLO
Si and I thought about introducing a new tier 5 system "Europe Select Other Roads" (eursor).
It would be similar to the existing eursf, cansph or cannf systems.
Pros:
- Any route might be added
- Could cover almost all routes 1.-4. except minor Alps passes
Cons:
- Any route might be added (endless discussion?)
We could have one eursor system or country-specific systems like chesor, deusor, autsor,... If you vote for eursor but prefer country-specific systems, please mention it with a post.
Note: eurap could also cover tier 4 routes but eursor would never contain any potential tier 4 route (e.g. no Italian SS roads).
Of course, I would draft eurap system if we wanna introduce the system and I would start eursor system :)
I don't know how things have been handled on CHM and I don't know how we wanna handle it. That's why I make this poll. Feel free to add your objections and thoughts also you are not interested in European routes at all.
Spinoza:
I voted "reject" since I think we only should introduce routes with clear and unambiguous classification. Maybe the "alpine passes" section can be defined more clearly, but at least in Italy there is no official classification for such routes: they are marked as national roads, or provincial, depending on their importance.
The "select named freeways" also is not very clear: I know it comes from CHM website, but at least in Italy makes no sense. For instance FIPILI is there even though it is a lower importance superstrada (secondary extra-urban road), while many other primary extra-urban roads are not present (SS77, SS76, SPBS11, etc) just because they are numbered and not named.
michih:
--- Quote from: Spinoza on September 19, 2016, 07:15:54 am ---I voted "reject"
--- End quote ---
Thanks, every opinion is welcomed :)
--- Quote ---since I think we only should introduce routes with clear and unambiguous classification. Maybe the "alpine passes" section can be defined more clearly, but at least in Italy there is no official classification for such routes: they are marked as national roads, or provincial, depending on their importance.
--- End quote ---
Exactly. That's why I'm not sure if we should really add systems like this. Minimum for "alpine passes", I could use the wikipedia list.
--- Quote ---The "select named freeways" also is not very clear: I know it comes from CHM website, but at least in Italy makes no sense. For instance FIPILI is there even though it is a lower importance superstrada (secondary extra-urban road), while many other primary extra-urban roads are not present (SS77, SS76, SPBS11, etc) just because they are numbered and not named.
--- End quote ---
My favorite system :)
I agree that SS77 and SS76 are not eursf b/c they belong to a potential (or future) tier 4 system itass* but I think SPBS11 could be added. Dunno if it was handled different on CHM (with the previous country-specific system) but compared to how we handle eursf on TM, I think it could be added...
*Combining the name with a German saying, the system could be "for the Italian ass". I don't think one will start drafting these routes "soon" b/c I think Italian signage is a mess... Do you have a full list of SS roads and their routes?
btw: @Si: I'm not as nice as cinx but maybe you wanna have a look at these 8 routes :)
michih:
Maybe we should make a list of potential Eurpean tier 5 systems like it's done for tier 4 systems. Roads of all countries w/o potential tier 5 system could be added to eursor system.
NOR, SWE, FIN (active), DNK have signed road systems, I think SLO G200+ could be tier 5 too.
Germany and Austria have L roads (partially S or St) and French has D roads but the numbers are not unique all over the country or not signed (just on km posts). CHE H101+ are also not signed, see wikipedia. I think it's similar for Croatian Z roads and Czech II roads but I'm not 100% sure.
Dunno if Portuguese IC roads or Polish DW roads could be tier 5?
Any different opinion or thoughts about other countries?
bhemphill:
As Spinoza noted, going with an alpine passes system can go down the slippery slope toward arguments of why this was included but not that. The United States kind of had that with the select state freeway system before it was decided to map all the primary state highway systems. There were also arguments over the length that was of motorway/freeway/highway quality being all that was included. Some states have secondary highway systems, with only Montana having been added so far. They are clearly more important than a county or local road and have route names that aren't reused in another part of the state like in some other states, so it is easy enough to justify the system gets included while others do not. The Europe Alps Passes doesn't quite seem up to the same standards, since the list is different between languages on Wikipedia.
The Strade Statali looks like it will be an undertaking, since Wikipedia says that they are turning roads over to regions and provinces. That would push the argument for the Strada Regionale being the tier 5 system there. The Landesstraßen/Staatsstraßen of Germany and Austria and the Hauptstrassen of Switzerland can at least be seen as equivalent to state highways in the US. What about Landesstraßen in Liechtenstein? In France, the Departement Roads seem more like they are at the County/Kries level since there are not roads controlled by the regions. That could probably be argued both ways though, since they are signed better in some places or for some roads. If you think about it in the levels of government from the country level to each level below getting smaller and more local each time, it would be easier to make the list of what are the roads maintained at the level below the entire country government. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2 would seem clear, but then there is also en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenclature_of_Territorial_Units_for_Statistics so that does just make it more complex.
Adding the next tier of road systems would mean that the European Select Named Freeways could be more easily limited to just those routes that are more of motorway quality, tollways, tunnels, or bridges that are a gap in the system, etc. instead of having people ask to have this road or that road added to the system.
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