Author Topic: ON: ON402 and the Blue Water Bridge  (Read 268 times)

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Offline IMGoph

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ON: ON402 and the Blue Water Bridge
« on: July 16, 2022, 05:20:55 pm »
I'm curious why the westernmost point for ON402 is a mile east of the Blue Water Bridge, instead of at the international boundary. Does anyone know why?

EDIT: I see this commit (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/commit/366f52bf9308ce687583106caebe4c9dab48d27e) where the end was trimmed off, and this comment in the log from Feb 21, 2021 (2021-02-21 | (Canada) Ontario | ON 402 | on.on402 | Route truncated on the western end from the mid-point of Blue Water Bridge to Exit 1 (Front Street).).

All that answers the when and how, but I'm still curious on the why. Thanks!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 05:46:27 pm by IMGoph »

Offline vdeane

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Re: ON: ON402 and the Blue Water Bridge
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2022, 06:38:23 pm »
MTO does not consider the 400-series routes to go all the way to the border, instead ending where MTO jurisdiction does.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Offline rickmastfan67

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Re: ON: ON402 and the Blue Water Bridge
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2022, 09:43:45 pm »
MTO does not consider the 400-series routes to go all the way to the border, instead ending where MTO jurisdiction does.

This, plus me talking with a person who works in the MTO on this subject.

Offline IMGoph

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Re: ON: ON402 and the Blue Water Bridge
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2022, 07:24:54 am »
MTO does not consider the 400-series routes to go all the way to the border, instead ending where MTO jurisdiction does.

This, plus me talking with a person who works in the MTO on this subject.

So, do we create a new system that is "Canadian highways within a few hundred meters of the border, managed by border control" in order to close the gaps? ;)

Offline vdeane

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Re: ON: ON402 and the Blue Water Bridge
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2022, 05:26:32 pm »
^ The problem isn't the border checkpoints per se, it's that the international bridges are all maintained by different authorities; there are routes like ON 137 that actually do go to the border.  The Blue Water Bridge, for example, is jointly owned by MDOT and the Federal Bridge Corporation, which owns many international and interprovincial bridges, as well as some that are entirely in Qu├ębec but cross the St. Lawrence Seaway.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Offline cl94

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Re: ON: ON402 and the Blue Water Bridge
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2022, 10:04:11 pm »
Yeah, MTO is like some of the US agencies in that they will not sign a route on anything they do not maintain. Similar to California, they'll designate some locally-maintained segments as "connecting links" that are signed, but not all and signage varies. Similarly the, QEW officially ends at Exit 1 and 405 ends at the former Niagara Parkway exit.

Offline IMGoph

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Re: ON: ON402 and the Blue Water Bridge
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2022, 10:30:38 pm »
Does anyone else want to have the ability to show those bridge approaches as clinched and colored in dark blue on their maps, or is it just the completist in me?

Offline rickmastfan67

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Re: ON: ON402 and the Blue Water Bridge
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2022, 11:32:08 pm »
Similarly the, QEW officially ends at Exit 1

No, it doesn't.  Exit 1 is Concession Road.  Central Avenue (RR124) doesn't have an exit number (logical place for Ontario to have a 'true' Exit 0 signed).

Probably could merge the 'PeaBrg' & 'RR124' points together.  The 'PeaBrg' point is mostly the 'historical' end point for the QEW, as it used to have ramps coming from Garrison Road (former ON-3) around that point that went onto the Peace Bridge.

Offline Jim

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Re: ON: ON402 and the Blue Water Bridge
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2022, 08:00:21 am »
Does anyone else want to have the ability to show those bridge approaches as clinched and colored in dark blue on their maps, or is it just the completist in me?

I would guess that's the majority opinion among TM users.  I don't think that most care whether the roads is officially designated/maintained/etc as part of the system right up to the border/bridge/etc.

Offline cl94

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Re: ON: ON402 and the Blue Water Bridge
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2022, 03:23:12 pm »
Similarly the, QEW officially ends at Exit 1

No, it doesn't.  Exit 1 is Concession Road.  Central Avenue (RR124) doesn't have an exit number (logical place for Ontario to have a 'true' Exit 0 signed).

Probably could merge the 'PeaBrg' & 'RR124' points together.  The 'PeaBrg' point is mostly the 'historical' end point for the QEW, as it used to have ramps coming from Garrison Road (former ON-3) around that point that went onto the Peace Bridge.

Yes, I meant Central Avenue. Forgot that was an unnumbered exit despite being over there frequently. The official endpoint is the pavement change just east of Central Avenue. Said Garrison Road ramp hasn't existed as an exit ramp in over 50 years, but unlike 405, the Peace Bridge Authority's jurisdiction was extended west.

Offline rickmastfan67

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Re: ON: ON402 and the Blue Water Bridge
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2022, 03:40:46 pm »
Similarly the, QEW officially ends at Exit 1

No, it doesn't.  Exit 1 is Concession Road.  Central Avenue (RR124) doesn't have an exit number (logical place for Ontario to have a 'true' Exit 0 signed).

Probably could merge the 'PeaBrg' & 'RR124' points together.  The 'PeaBrg' point is mostly the 'historical' end point for the QEW, as it used to have ramps coming from Garrison Road (former ON-3) around that point that went onto the Peace Bridge.

Yes, I meant Central Avenue. Forgot that was an unnumbered exit despite being over there frequently. The official endpoint is the pavement change just east of Central Avenue. Said Garrison Road ramp hasn't existed as an exit ramp in over 50 years, but unlike 405, the Peace Bridge Authority's jurisdiction was extended west.

Sure you got your timeline right on Garrison Road?  Still existed in the '90s before they rebuilt & relocated the Duty Free shop.  I remember using it as a kid with my parents occasionally when we needed to stop at the Duty Free to get our taxes back.

Also, the jurisdiction was probably extended due to them moving the toll booths from the US side to just before the Central Avenue bridge, thus making the only EZ-Pass toll in Canada.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2022, 03:54:23 pm by rickmastfan67 »

Offline cl94

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Re: ON: ON402 and the Blue Water Bridge
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2022, 07:44:23 pm »
Similarly the, QEW officially ends at Exit 1

No, it doesn't.  Exit 1 is Concession Road.  Central Avenue (RR124) doesn't have an exit number (logical place for Ontario to have a 'true' Exit 0 signed).

Probably could merge the 'PeaBrg' & 'RR124' points together.  The 'PeaBrg' point is mostly the 'historical' end point for the QEW, as it used to have ramps coming from Garrison Road (former ON-3) around that point that went onto the Peace Bridge.

Yes, I meant Central Avenue. Forgot that was an unnumbered exit despite being over there frequently. The official endpoint is the pavement change just east of Central Avenue. Said Garrison Road ramp hasn't existed as an exit ramp in over 50 years, but unlike 405, the Peace Bridge Authority's jurisdiction was extended west.

Sure you got your timeline right on Garrison Road?  Still existed in the '90s before they rebuilt & relocated the Duty Free shop.  I remember using it as a kid with my parents occasionally when we needed to stop at the Duty Free to get our taxes back.

Also, the jurisdiction was probably extended due to them moving the toll booths from the US side to just before the Central Avenue bridge, thus making the only EZ-Pass toll in Canada.

Yes, I am sure about my timeline, but on a technicality. The Garrison Road ramp existed until about 20 years ago, but only as an entrance ramp to the bridge. The rest of the Central Avenue interchange had existed since the 70s in some fashion, so QEW traffic didn't use the Garrison Road ramp unless visiting the original duty free shop. At that point, PBA jurisdiction ended about 150 metres further east, roughly where the QEW ends on TM and where the Garrison Road ramp joined traffic from the QEW. Prior to the 70s rebuild to tie the QEW into the bridge, Garrison Road was more important as a gateway. You *had* to use that and Central Avenue to connect between the bridge and QEW; this is what I was using as my baseline.

But back to the issue at hand: I would support adding the Peace Bridge and Blue Water Bridge to cannf/usasf to create connections between freeways on both sides of the border. At this point, both are effectively limited-access facilities since the US side of the Peace Bridge was redone and both tie directly into freeways on each end. I will note that the Peace Bridge is one of the very few border crossings that isn't in TM on either side. Similarly, I'd support an exception for the Gordie Howe Bridge once that opens to create a direct connection between 75 and 401.

Offline vdeane

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Re: ON: ON402 and the Blue Water Bridge
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2022, 10:17:27 pm »
Also, the jurisdiction was probably extended due to them moving the toll booths from the US side to just before the Central Avenue bridge, thus making the only EZ-Pass toll in Canada.
No longer the only one.  The Niagara Falls bridges now take E-ZPass, as does the Thousand Islands Bridge.  The latter is notable because the toll booths for each direction are on the mainland, and the border is between two islands, both of which are large enough to be populated.  Thus, it is now possible to pay a toll with E-ZPass in Canada without crossing the border!
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.