Author Topic: WY: WY346 et. al.  (Read 557 times)

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Offline Duke87

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WY: WY346 et. al.
« on: July 22, 2022, 05:48:05 pm »
So, the southern stub of US87 between WY 193 and the Fetterman Monument is signed thus:


Sign is from 2020 per the date stamp so not something old and lingering.


Also - with WY 330 decommissioned, mention of it needs to be removed from the WY330/336 point label on I-90BLShe, US14BusShe, and US87BusShe
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 05:57:23 pm by Duke87 »

Offline the_spui_ninja

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Re: WY: WY346 et. al.
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2022, 11:13:26 am »
Interesting... that's how that part of the route has been inventoried in the system for years, but it hasn't been signed as such (it wasn't signed as anything before lol). Did you notice if WyDOT put US 87 signage along WY 193 like they want to? I don't see a problem with truncating 87 to the now 193/346 junction if they didn't, but if they're just signing routes like they have them inventoried I was wondering if they just moved 87 to 193 like they've wanted to for years.

Also - with WY 330 decommissioned, mention of it needs to be removed from the WY330/336 point label on I-90BLShe, US14BusShe, and US87BusShe
Whoops, forgot that one.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 11:20:06 am by the_spui_ninja »
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Offline Duke87

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Re: WY: WY346 et. al.
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2022, 12:37:15 pm »
WY 193 is still only signed as WY 193. Mention of US 87 disappears at either end of it. And the northern stub is still not signed as anything.

Personally I'd leave US 87 alone (matching where AASHTO says it goes minus the impassible physical gap) and add WY 346 as a concurrent designation for the southern stub, but this is one of those "subject to interpretation" situations so truncating 87 isn't necessarily any less correct.

Offline the_spui_ninja

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Re: WY: WY346 et. al.
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2022, 01:29:38 pm »
WY 193 is still only signed as WY 193. Mention of US 87 disappears at either end of it. And the northern stub is still not signed as anything.

Personally I'd leave US 87 alone (matching where AASHTO says it goes minus the impassible physical gap) and add WY 346 as a concurrent designation for the southern stub, but this is one of those "subject to interpretation" situations so truncating 87 isn't necessarily any less correct.
Cool, thanks! If I remember right, Wyoming petitioned AASHTO to move 87 onto 193 when the most recent washout occurred, but AASHTO wanted Wyoming to move 87 to I-90, and Wyoming said no. Keeping 87 where it is would avoid a similar situation that just happened with the MT/SR 201 split, so I think I might do that unless anyone else has a more vocal opinion on the matter.
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Offline yakra

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Re: WY: WY346 et. al.
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2022, 04:23:16 pm »
Quote
Keeping 87 where it is would avoid a similar situation that just happened with the MT/SR 201 split
I assume you mean truncating an existing designation (SR201, US87) and replacing the truncated bit with a new designation (MT201, WY346)?

ISTM that truncating 87 is the right thing to do if the southern stub is inventoried & signed as 346 and not 87.

How about the northern stub; is that inventoried as anything at all? State-maintained?
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Offline the_spui_ninja

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Re: WY: WY346 et. al.
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2022, 06:49:31 pm »
Quote
Keeping 87 where it is would avoid a similar situation that just happened with the MT/SR 201 split
I assume you mean truncating an existing designation (SR201, US87) and replacing the truncated bit with a new designation (MT201, WY346)?

ISTM that truncating 87 is the right thing to do if the southern stub is inventoried & signed as 346 and not 87.
Yeah, cause the AltRouteName will just glitch out in this situation. I agree truncating is more precise, though.

How about the northern stub; is that inventoried as anything at all? State-maintained?
It's part of 87 according to the 2017 log (the latest we have).
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Offline neroute2

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Re: WY: WY346 et. al.
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2022, 07:45:00 pm »
I think the other stub is also in entoried as WY 344.

Offline the_spui_ninja

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Re: WY: WY346 et. al.
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2022, 12:30:57 am »
Here's the log: https://www.dot.state.wy.us/files/live/sites/wydot/files/shared/Maintenance/Maintenance%20Section%20Reference%20Book/2017-MaintenanceSectionReferenceBook.pdf

On Page 95 of the PDF, we find the Johnson County map (yes I know we need to worry about Sheridan County we'll get there). This shows 193 as "ML1003B" and 87 as "ML346B". If we scroll down to the milepost logs (pg 98), we see that ML 1003B is labeled as US 87 & WY 193, and shows US 87 leaving I-90 at MP 98.290 and ending at WY 346 at MP 100.30; the route continues as WY 193. ML 346B is labeled as US 87, and branches off 87/193 at the previous junction. WY 346 is not mentioned until the Sheridan County page, page 141 (inset on pg 142 is clearer). There, ML 346B is labeled as WY 346, while ML 1003B is labeled as both 193/87 and standalone 193. 87 proper north of the Story area is ML 60B, and this continues to the north end of the washout. In the route log pages (starting at page 145), ML 60B is labeled US 14/87 BUS, I-90 BUS & US 87, and goes from MP 20.922 at I-90 Exit 20 to MP 40.850 where the description is "Roadway Ends @Slide Area". ML 1003B is only labeled WY 193, and goes from the county line to US 87. ML 346B here is labeled WY 346, and goes from the county line to the south end of the slide area.

After going through all that, the logs, especially in Johnson County, are kind of contradictory and confusing. My best attempt to sort out the situation is
1. Leave WY 193 as-is.
2. Truncate vanilla US 87 to the intersection with 193 and 346, since the southern spur is now signed as 346.
3. Add WY 346 to the southern washout spur.
4. Leave US87She as-is.

This, IMO, is the best combination of the signage on the ground, AASHTO's definition, and the WYDOT internal logs. As an aside, Wyoming's route inventory system is really quite bad, and needs to be overhauled.

I think the other stub is also in entoried as WY 344.
I remember that in the 2013 log, but the 2017 log has no record of it.
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Offline si404

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Re: WY: WY346 et. al.
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2022, 04:21:01 am »
After going through all that, the logs, especially in Johnson County, are kind of contradictory and confusing. My best attempt to sort out the situation is
1. Leave WY 193 as-is.
2. Truncate vanilla US 87 to the intersection with 193 and 346, since the southern spur is now signed as 346.
3. Add WY 346 to the southern washout spur.
4. Leave US87She as-is.

This, IMO, is the best combination of the signage on the ground, AASHTO's definition, and the WYDOT internal logs. As an aside, Wyoming's route inventory system is really quite bad, and needs to be overhauled.
Concur with all that.

Offline US 89

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Re: WY: WY346 et. al.
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2022, 11:49:11 am »
Why should US 87 be truncated? Whether it's signed or not, it's still there on the dead-end as far as AASHTO is concerned.

Agreed on Wyoming's annoying inventory system. Basically, it seems to me that Wyoming has no idea what they want to do with US 87. In that case, shouldn't the AASHTO definition take priority, especially as there is no signage or even route log information to the contrary?

Offline yakra

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Re: WY: WY346 et. al.
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2022, 06:33:49 pm »
AASHTO is good for guidance, but should not be the whole story. If it were, there'd still be an OK US62Tmp (Lawton), a lot less U377, still an IA US34Bus (Glenwood) I believe, and...
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Offline the_spui_ninja

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Re: WY: WY346 et. al.
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2022, 11:00:35 pm »
Basically, it seems to me that Wyoming has no idea what they want to do with US 87.
So from my understanding, not sure where I saw this, Wyoming petitioned AASHTO back in the '90s to move 87 onto what is now 193 due to the frequent washouts. AASHTO denied it, and said they could only move 87 to I-90. Wyoming didn't want to do that, so they just did nothing. As such, since neither agency really wants 87 to be on the washout stretch, I'm fine truncating it.
An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered. - G.K. Chesterton

Offline yakra

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Re: WY: WY346 et. al.
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2022, 09:06:41 am »
Quote from: May 19, 2001
The Committee considered 17 applications from 11 states. All applications were approved, with the exception of the following:
  • The application from Wyoming for the relocation of U.S. Route 87 was disapproved because there was no indication that the deficiencies noted on Wyoming S.R. 193 will be corrected.

    Additionally, the Committee members suggested that Wyoming consider alternative routings for U.S. Route 87, such as:
    • Continue U.S. Route 87 on Interstate Route 90 north of Buffalo, past the landslide area, than [sic] back onto existing U.S. Route 87 via Wyoming S.R. 342; or
    • Relocate the entire length of U.S. Route 87 onto Interstate Route 90 from north of Buffalo to Sheridan.
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Offline the_spui_ninja

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Re: WY: WY346 et. al.
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2022, 11:57:39 pm »
It was later than I thought then! If there aren't any other serious objections, I'll make the changes I specified earlier.
An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered. - G.K. Chesterton

Offline yakra

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Re: WY: WY346 et. al.
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2022, 08:21:53 am »
Sounds like US87She could also be truncated, not only due to being unsigned, but also with (at least some of) ML 1003B being both 193/87.
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