usatr: United States select tourist routes

[Markkos1992]

Also, there's a spur for the Seaway Trail in Erie following PA 832.

I saw that when I decided to replace the previous nearby hidden shaping point on PA 832. 

Is there a way for me to prove whether this supposed spur goes into Presque Isle State Park or ends at the state park line like PA 832 itself?  This page seems to indicate that it goes into the park.

[SSOWorld]

I'm supporting a demotion to devel now. 

The Great River Road does not cross the river. ever!. There are 2 general routes - one on each bank. You have instances of this crossing (i.e. US 61/151 from Dubuque US 20 to WIS-11)

The GRR National Route crosses the river several times in Minnesota.

The river - yes - state lines? Once. (With US 10 to connect WI's side properly) - North of that,   There isn't a point (signed) to having GRR on each side since it's entirely within a state.

I can see the communication between Illinois and Iowa/Wisconsin is screwed up as usual (Julien Dubuque Bridge vs IL/WI 35) - but whatever; it's a tourist route. I do see where Missouri was happy to oblige in Hannibal.

[oscar]

(But the route thru Vicksburg should remain in TM as US 61 Business.)

US 61 Business isn't in TM now, though it's been suggested for addition to usausb. Take it up with froggie.

[the_spui_ninja]

LCT has a connector on US 12 in Mobridge (east end, west end).

There is also one at Pierre (west end). Signage on the northbank between Pierre and Chamberlain is very sparse, and this sign implies it's not there, but there is this.

The LCT stays with SD 52 west of Yankton.

I can't find any LCT shields on I-29 south of SD 50, but there is this sign for a wayside exhibit.

LCT has a connector at Washburn (west end, east end).

There is also one on ND 810 in Bismarck (west end, east end). Finally this freeway gets added

LCTKen does not pass thru Kennebec. Instead it uses SD 47 north from Reliance to BIA 10, and presumably goes via Lower Brule to SD 1806.



The Yellowstone Trail also has signs in SD, but I haven't looked into how common they are.

For the East River Chamberlain to Pierre segment, Lewis & Clark follows the (BIA 4 cutoff to Ft. Thompson, where it then presumably follows SD 47 and SD 34 to Pierre to link up with the rest (never seen signs along that stretch, but it's pre-existing mileage so including a poorly signed route isn't the end of the world).

As far as the link between Gregory and Ft. Pierre, I'd rather leave it on the current routing because the only evidence of the Lower Brule routing is the one sign that looks older than me, and that way we don't add any new mileage that doesn't have good signage to back it up. Still think it should be "Lewis & Clark Auto Trail (East River)" (SD LCTrl) and "Lewis & Clark Auto Trail (West River)" (SD LCTrlWRi), that way the cities can be used for the connectors/spurs.

Found a sign in Montana! See below for more on badly signed official routings that are concurrent with existing mileage.

Si, I can handle the ND/MT/WY/CO issues that pop up on these routes, it'll give me something to do lol. If you want to keep em in those states, that's fine with me too.

To me, including such routes in a tourist route system is a waste of effort, both for whoever is developing the system, and also potential headaches for the maintainers of the concurrent routes.

I guess I'm fine with maintaining completely concurrent tourist routes, I have to deal with so many concurrencies anyway so what's one more? If there's a national tourist route with easily accessible maps, but one state/province doesn't sign it very well if at all (*cough* MONTANA *cough*) I'd include the legs in that state/province (so there's a cohesive national route) as long as they were concurrent with pre-existing mileage (that's just me though). This is kinda like US 87 in Colorado, which doesn't officially exist per CDOT but we have it in there anyway to link the national route together.

I guess on that note I'm gonna draft up the many Lewis and Clark routes in Montana now, sounds like fun!

[neroute2]

The LCT has a spur? into Weston MO (east end, west end?).

[neroute2]

For the East River Chamberlain to Pierre segment, Lewis & Clark follows the (BIA 4 cutoff to Ft. Thompson, where it then presumably follows SD 47 and SD 34 to Pierre to link up with the rest (never seen signs along that stretch, but it's pre-existing mileage so including a poorly signed route isn't the end of the world).

That explains the missing signage

As far as the link between Gregory and Ft. Pierre, I'd rather leave it on the current routing because the only evidence of the Lower Brule routing is the one sign that looks older than me, and that way we don't add any new mileage that doesn't have good signage to back it up.

Here's a (north-facing) sign that hasn't faded so badly. Another on BIA 10 at SD 47. There may be more at the north end of SD 273 but available imagery is too old.

[shiggins]

For the East River Chamberlain to Pierre segment, Lewis & Clark follows the (BIA 4 cutoff to Ft. Thompson, where it then presumably follows SD 47 and SD 34 to Pierre to link up with the rest (never seen signs along that stretch, but it's pre-existing mileage so including a poorly signed route isn't the end of the world).

I found some signs along SD 47 and SD 34, confirming that the route you stated is correct:
SD 47 northbound in Fort Thompson
SD 34 eastbound/SD 47 southbound approaching Fort Thompson
SD 34 eastbound approaching SD 47

Also, I'd like to vote in favor of keeping this system around.

[the_spui_ninja]

The LCT has a spur? into Weston MO (east end, west end?).

Yes, this is a spur. I've been to/through Weston numerous times on that.

As far as the link between Gregory and Ft. Pierre, I'd rather leave it on the current routing because the only evidence of the Lower Brule routing is the one sign that looks older than me, and that way we don't add any new mileage that doesn't have good signage to back it up.

Here's a (north-facing) sign that hasn't faded so badly. Another on BIA 10 at SD 47. There may be more at the north end of SD 273 but available imagery is too old.

Well I might have to check that out then. I'm going to Pierre next week so we'll see if I can find the time to go that way. Looked at streetview in Lower Brule though, and didn't find any signage.

[neroute2]

The National Road is signed west into East St. Louis. It turns off the route we have at West Collinsville Road in Troy. It follows the south frontage road of I-70, then IL 159 into Collinsville (where signage is wonky), then Clay/Main to Combs-Main-St. Louis and Collinsville Road into 9th-10th, then Broadway to the Eads Bridge.

The National Road uses IL 4 to Ellis Road-Highland Road-Broadway-IL 160 back to US 40.

The National Road has a spur in Greenville that loops on Main-Elm-College.

The National Road uses 3rd-Jefferson in Effingham.

The National Road uses Cumberland Road thru Jewett.

[si404]

Also the BC routes need to be moved to a cantr system as those are not in the United States.

Breaking up a connected route because there's an international border there seems dumb. Either we tolerate an International Route in a USA system, or the system becomes natr.

The BC routes also seem at first glance to be completely concurrent with canbc routes. To me, including such routes in a tourist route system is a waste of effort, both for whoever is developing the system, and also potential headaches for the maintainers of the concurrent routes. This is different from, say, the Lincoln Highway, which seems to include significant mileage not already in TM.

I understand, and accept this argument (though personally I'm unfussed about a plethora of concurrent routes) - it does make everything harder to maintain. However the route is not entirely concurrent with other routes: the south side of this route and the southeast corner of this route are not.

Plus, if we didn't include it, it would be the only multi-state All American Road (well, after I've got the Volcanic Legacy Scenic Byway added to this system this evening) that we didn't include on TM (as far as possible to do so) as a single route. OK, the Beartooth Highway is in as US212, and the Newfound Gap Road Byway as US441, rather than under their names.

Also, the BC routes seem to be deemed part of an international Selkirk route system reaching into Idaho. Those Idaho routes not only are concurrent with Idaho state routes, but I've driven many of those concurrent routes, and never saw any signage indicating they were part of any scenic route system, Selkirk or otherwise. (Ditto the BC routes, though I haven't traveled them as extensively as the Idaho routes.)

You never saw the signs? I found, on Streetview, that these were pretty average in terms of signage - not tons of signs, but only maybe 1 or 2 junctions where it was hard to find signs.

Below are 5 for each of the three jurisdictions (all at different junctions).
BC: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
ID: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
WA: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

[neroute2]

National Road in Indiana (mostly US 40):
Ohio line
Main Street thru Richmond to presumably 5th Street (where old Automobile Blue Books have traffic turn)
Old National Road thru Dunreith-Ogden-Raysville
Old US 40 thru Indy
Example sign on US 40
35E/25W east of Putnamville
750S west of Manhattan
SR 340
Wabash Avenue in Terre Haute
Old US 40 in West Terre Haute
Illiana Drive near the state line

[Highway63]

Typo in the IA Belle Plaine Lincoln Highway loop (LinHwyLpBel): 135th St->13thSt.

[mapcat]

The routing for the National Road in Ohio differs slightly from what ODOT has highlighted here: https://gis3.dot.state.oh.us/ScenicByways/HNR.html

I haven't checked everything, but TM's routing on the west side of Cambridge is contradicted by at least one sign.

[Markkos1992]

Also, there's a spur for the Seaway Trail in Erie following PA 832.

I saw that when I decided to replace the previous nearby hidden shaping point on PA 832. 

Is there a way for me to prove whether this supposed spur goes into Presque Isle State Park or ends at the state park line like PA 832 itself?  This page seems to indicate that it goes into the park.

I did loop the spur into the park leading to a Duplicate Coordinates Error that I will have to mark as a FP.  https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/7328

[neroute2]

I can't find any National Road signs in downtown Columbus OH; https://gis3.dot.state.oh.us/ScenicByways/HNR.html shows it using either Grant or Drexel, not 3rd/4th. https://www.franklincountyengineer.org/wp-content/uploads/PDF/TravelersGuide.pdf (p. 26) says the National Road originally used High and later moved to Drexel, giving Drexel as the route to follow now.

Bridgeville Drive west of Norwich

US 40 west of Cambridge, NOT Manila Road (but Fairdale Road is signed)

Peacock Road west of Old Washington has a small OLD NATIONAL ROAD TOUR sign (posted by Guernsey County).

This tour sign points right, implying it loops east to use Old National Road thru Old Washington - and this is a bigger sign confirming it.

There's another tour sign on Bridgewater Road west of SR 513, but I don't see any east of SR 513. Perhaps this should be a gap, since half of our route was never the National Road. Or take it on I-70 like https://gis3.dot.state.oh.us/ScenicByways/HNR.html shows, but there doesn't seem to be any signage to the east to and along SR 800 either. So have a gap until I-70 exit 204?