Author Topic: cannf: Canada Select Named Freeways  (Read 19933 times)

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Offline andrepoiy

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Re: cannf: Canada Select Named Freeways
« Reply #90 on: March 23, 2021, 09:55:31 pm »
Adding international crossings would mean adding stuff less than 3 miles long, which apparently isn't allowed

Offline rickmastfan67

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Re: cannf: Canada Select Named Freeways
« Reply #91 on: March 23, 2021, 11:10:32 pm »
If we're going by MTO's "the 400 series highway (and the freeway) ends before customs" definition, shouldn't ON 405 be cut back to *PorRd too?

This one might be maintained by the MTO.

I was told that the 402 one wasn't maintained my the MTO, hence the shortening.

Offline vdeane

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Re: cannf: Canada Select Named Freeways
« Reply #92 on: March 24, 2021, 05:40:24 pm »
The Lewiston-Queenston Bridge is owned/maintained by the Niagara Falls Bridge Commission.  The lengths for ON 405 in the AADT log also correspond to an end at *PorRd; ending at the border would be about a kilometre longer than what's listed.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Offline Duke87

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Re: cannf: Canada Select Named Freeways
« Reply #93 on: March 24, 2021, 08:07:59 pm »
Personally I'd be fine with cutting the 400-highways back to their official endpoints and just letting there be a gap with no graph connection to the route on the US side. There is precedent elsewhere for this in cases where the legal definition of a route ends short of the border (e.g. ON 3, CA 7).

Offline michih

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Re: cannf: Canada Select Named Freeways
« Reply #94 on: March 25, 2021, 01:56:12 am »
Personally I'd be fine with cutting the 400-highways back to their official endpoints and just letting there be a gap with no graph connection to the route on the US side.

I only agree when there is an exit or junction where you can legally turn or leave the road. If not, the graphs should stay connected.

Offline rickmastfan67

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Re: cannf: Canada Select Named Freeways
« Reply #95 on: March 25, 2021, 08:45:08 pm »
Personally I'd be fine with cutting the 400-highways back to their official endpoints and just letting there be a gap with no graph connection to the route on the US side.

I only agree when there is an exit or junction where you can legally turn or leave the road. If not, the graphs should stay connected.

Well, there was a former exit there for the Niagara Parkway that completely bypassed the customs on 405.  My family used it back in the day several times.  Was closed off on 12/04/06.  The WB on-ramp is sorta still there, but there are gates now blocking it.  The EB off-ramp down to the Niagara Parkway has been completely removed.

Offline vdeane

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Re: cannf: Canada Select Named Freeways
« Reply #96 on: March 25, 2021, 10:59:08 pm »
Looking at the AADT log some more, it looks like ON 402 ends 0.7 km west of exit 1 at the customs plaza.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Offline rickmastfan67

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Re: cannf: Canada Select Named Freeways
« Reply #97 on: March 25, 2021, 11:01:52 pm »
Looking at the AADT log some more, it looks like ON 402 ends 0.7 km west of exit 1 at the customs plaza.

I was told it ends here.  And this came directly from somebody that works in the MTO.  Since that location is still within the Exit 1 ramps, I kept it at that center point.

Offline vdeane

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Re: cannf: Canada Select Named Freeways
« Reply #98 on: March 25, 2021, 11:20:55 pm »
Did they specifically say exit 1, rather than the last ramp?  The AADT log has it end 0.1 km west of Marina Road/Bridge Street, and it took a Google Maps search to discover that "Bridge Street" is the NEXUS bypass ramp.  Front Street is listed separately, so they really do have 2 count segments west of there.  Did they truncate it since the AADT log was made?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Offline rickmastfan67

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Re: cannf: Canada Select Named Freeways
« Reply #99 on: March 25, 2021, 11:35:25 pm »
Did they specifically say exit 1, rather than the last ramp?  The AADT log has it end 0.1 km west of Marina Road/Bridge Street, and it took a Google Maps search to discover that "Bridge Street" is the NEXUS bypass ramp.  Front Street is listed separately, so they really do have 2 count segments west of there.  Did they truncate it since the AADT log was made?

Here's the exact wording from the message I got from him:
Quote
- Hwy 402's western terminus is at this pavement transition you can see in the westbound lanes, just west of Front Street between the off and on ramps https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.9894253,-82.407252,196m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

Thus, the 1PPI rule comes into play, and thus, centered @ exit 1's overpass.

Offline yakra

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Re: cannf: Canada Select Named Freeways
« Reply #100 on: March 26, 2021, 02:48:45 pm »
My apologies, everybody, for kicking the hornet's nest upthread. :(

Adding international crossings would mean adding stuff less than 3 miles long, which apparently isn't allowed
I don't know where people keep getting this idea, but there is zero truth to it.
Without even taking a look at routes outside North America, we see that cannf has two routes < 3 miles, and usasf has 27.

I only agree when there is an exit or junction where you can legally turn or leave the road. If not, the graphs should stay connected.
Strongly disagree. There are numerous instances of roads ending at non-intersections; it's common enough that there's a manual section on how to label them.
We shouldn't be falsely adding extra length onto the end of a route just for a graph connection.
If the routes end at the ports of entry plaza whaddayacalls, the ends of ON3Win, CA7, and NY384 are appropriate.
(Although there's no corresponding route across the border to beg for a graph connection, so these may not be the best examples of the principle...)
Sri Syadasti Syadavaktavya Syadasti Syannasti Syadasti Cavaktavyasca Syadasti Syannasti Syadavatavyasca Syadasti Syannasti Syadavaktavyasca

Offline michih

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Re: cannf: Canada Select Named Freeways
« Reply #101 on: March 26, 2021, 03:07:11 pm »
I only agree when there is an exit or junction where you can legally turn or leave the road. If not, the graphs should stay connected.
Strongly disagree. There are numerous instances of roads ending at non-intersections; it's common enough that there's a manual section on how to label them.
We shouldn't be falsely adding extra length onto the end of a route just for a graph connection.

I was always told in peer-reviews to extend those routes and avoiding small gap. I would never apply the mentioned rule to freeways. I mostly apply the 'End' rule in case of secondary highways etc. ending in the middle of nowhere.

Offline andrepoiy

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Re: cannf: Canada Select Named Freeways
« Reply #102 on: March 26, 2021, 07:38:45 pm »
My apologies, everybody, for kicking the hornet's nest upthread. :(

Adding international crossings would mean adding stuff less than 3 miles long, which apparently isn't allowed
I don't know where people keep getting this idea, but there is zero truth to it.
Without even taking a look at routes outside North America, we see that cannf has two routes < 3 miles, and usasf has 27.


It was just that earlier in this thread when I suggested certain additions, rickmastfan said that a number of them were too short to be added, and cited 3 miles as the threshold. (And also stated that the recently added Highbury Avenue was close enough to 3 miles that it was added)

Offline vdeane

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Re: cannf: Canada Select Named Freeways
« Reply #103 on: March 26, 2021, 11:35:38 pm »
Did they specifically say exit 1, rather than the last ramp?  The AADT log has it end 0.1 km west of Marina Road/Bridge Street, and it took a Google Maps search to discover that "Bridge Street" is the NEXUS bypass ramp.  Front Street is listed separately, so they really do have 2 count segments west of there.  Did they truncate it since the AADT log was made?

Here's the exact wording from the message I got from him:
Quote
- Hwy 402's western terminus is at this pavement transition you can see in the westbound lanes, just west of Front Street between the off and on ramps https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.9894253,-82.407252,196m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

Thus, the 1PPI rule comes into play, and thus, centered @ exit 1's overpass.
That's... interesting.  It's a very odd place to end the road, it doesn't match the AADT log, and there isn't even a pavement transition eastbound across all lanes (and the westbound one only dates to a project to expand the queuing space before customs in the last decade or so).

Of course, DOT employees don't necessarily have perfect knowledge.  Ask any design engineer in NYSDOT Region 1 about our interstate system, and in addition to the Northway, free 90, I-88, I-890, and I-787, they'll also tell you about alternate route 7, which is not and has never been an interstate in its entire existence (in addition to being actual NY 7 and not an alternate), though it was once planned as part of I-88.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Offline andrepoiy

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Re: cannf: Canada Select Named Freeways
« Reply #104 on: April 03, 2021, 11:26:55 am »
Yesterday I took a drive on the Lincoln Alexander Parkway and Red Hill Valley Parkway and I noticed that the starting/ending points of both appear to be incorrect in the system here on Travel Mapping.

They appear to start/end west of the Darnall Road interchange, at least that's where it's signed.

Here is a Streetview going towards RHVP

Link: https://goo.gl/maps/3o6NpYJWj9Uf7M4t6

Here is a Streetview going towards Linc:

Link: https://goo.gl/maps/9ZNuxzKTSqvxskg49