Travel Mapping
Highway Data Discussion => Updates to Highway Data => Topic started by: rickmastfan67 on October 24, 2017, 11:23:10 pm
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Original: http://tm.teresco.org/forum/index.php?topic=52.0
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StreetView was recently updated in this area on the 'Eastern' end @ WV-44, so I get to see this clusterfuck for US-52.... Man, add the King Coal segment as a completely separate US-52 file? Add it as a 'spur' route? Reroute the entire route onto it, even though the 'old' route is still being posted the main route at the same time? Ai-yi-yi-yi-yi!.
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Ack. I'm glad I don't maintain WV, and have never been there. Has there been an AASHTO application?
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Ack. I'm glad I don't maintain WV, and have never been there. Has there been an AASHTO application?
As far as I'm aware of, no.
Still, I'm open to opinions here on what we should do about this interesting 'shituation'.
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You just edited the OP, I see.
Title, was it?
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You just edited the OP, I see.
Title, was it?
Yes, just the title (& the link to the original). lol. Did that after I split it off from the 'original' topic so it could stand alone.
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Although it isn't posted with a banner, you could add it as Future US 52...
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My suggestion is to leave things as they are for now.
My interpretation of the signage as seen in GMSV is that it clearly shows US 52 still following its original routing. There are no signs suggesting US 52 follows the "new" routing at the intersection of US 52 and WV 44, at the intersection of US 52 and WV 65, or at the intersection of either WV 44 and WV 65 at King Coal Highway. There are no US 52 shields along either supposed concurrency as well. All there are are US 52 reassurance shields along King Coal Highway.
Seems to me these signs were posted pre-emptively in anticipation of US 52 being rerouted in the future... but that hasn't actually happened so their presence is in error. Rather like all the I-86 shields in New York that are exposed along what is not yet (and may never be) I-86.
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My suggestion is to leave things as they are for now.
My interpretation of the signage as seen in GMSV is that it clearly shows US 52 still following its original routing. There are no signs suggesting US 52 follows the "new" routing at the intersection of US 52 and WV 44, at the intersection of US 52 and WV 65, or at the intersection of either WV 44 and WV 65 at King Coal Highway. There are no US 52 shields along either supposed concurrency as well. All there are are US 52 reassurance shields along King Coal Highway.
Seems to me these signs were posted pre-emptively in anticipation of US 52 being rerouted in the future... but that hasn't actually happened so their presence is in error. Rather like all the I-86 shields in New York that are exposed along what is not yet (and may never be) I-86.
Problem is, that the WVDOT county maps clearly show the 'old' route as CR-252/57 now. And the map is as-of August '17.
ftp://gis.transportation.wv.gov/GISCountyMaps/MingoSHEET%202WB.pdf
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You could also just treat it as a separate primary segment like you would a state route with multiple segments - the fact that the intent is to have US 52 follow this routing and decommission the other one at some point could be viewed as not relevant. If they had numbered the new piece WV 452 as a place holder there would be no question what to do. They just elected to save some sign money by putting up what the route will actually be someday...
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In past cases where official maps disagreed with older signage, we tended to go with the maps. So based on precedent, mainline US 52 could be moved to the new highway.
Mike's suggestion is an alternative to this, but given the new official mapping (demoting the old route to CR 252/57), I'd be loath to have two parallel segments.
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In past cases where official maps disagreed with older signage, we tended to go with the maps. So based on precedent, mainline US 52 could be moved to the new highway.
The problem with that you have to be 'actively' searching out the new alignment, otherwise you might not know about it. That's why I kinda leaning towards just leaving the 'mainline' route on the old road till WVDOT decides to add a multiplex along WV-44 & WV-65 to connect the 'new' highway to the full route. Thus, adding it as a 'Future' file might work the best here, especially since I don't know of any AASHTO approval for the reroute yet.
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Current GIS Map of Mingo County (https://gis.transportation.wv.gov/GISCountyMaps/PDF-WhiteBackground/MingoSheet%202WB.pdf) still shows it on the new alignment. StreetView still hasn't been back since December '16. Has anybody else been down in this area lately to see if anything has changed?
Still no AASHTO submission for a reroute to boot.
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I just watched roadwaywiz's videos from this segment that I believe were filmed in June 2020, and it looks like nothing has changed.
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I just watched roadwaywiz's videos from this segment that I believe were filmed in June 2020, and it looks like nothing has changed.
I just happened to take a look again at the WV-65 end of the King Coal Highway, and noticed that Google has fixed the imagery in that area (before they didn't have imagery properly showing on the reroute of WV-65 up to the intersection).
Now I can see that there are US-52 shields there in both directions of WV-65 (SB (https://goo.gl/maps/PyxBNEeTLtc3yRAK8) & NB (https://goo.gl/maps/gePNeNkp3qJbdPFd8)) that I think a 'separate' segment of US-52 here is now warranted till WVDOH gets around to properly reroute it along both WV-44 & WV-65 and off the old road (like shown on their maps).
So, I'll add a separate file, but leave this topic un-solved for now. Since there's no real city around there, I'll just name the file as 'wv.us052kin', with the 'city' name of "King Coal Highway". Hopefully, WVDOH will get that reroute done (& submit a request to the AASHTO about it) soon, so I can delete this file, reroute the main onto it, and fix this craziness.
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I thought that WVDOH was working on extending this farther to the southeast. Maybe whenever that gets built this nonsense will end.
EDIT: I think I confused the green section (from roadwaywiz's recent WV Webinar (https://youtu.be/1Wim12cWxmY?t=5465)) with the part being built from WV 123 to US 460 scheduled to be completed later this year.
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EDIT: I think I confused the green section (from roadwaywiz's recent WV Webinar (https://youtu.be/1Wim12cWxmY?t=5465)) with the part being built from WV 123 to US 460 scheduled to be completed later this year.
Well, when that opens, let's hope that the 'Truck' US-52 in Bluefield (https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?units=miles&u=null&r=wv.us052trkblu) will be decommissioned as well. That and US-52 gaining a business route into town on the current route of US-52.
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Anyways, now submitted.
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/4625
However, I'm not totally opposed to swap it to a 'future' file. If so, make a post here and on the GitHub page before Jim pulls it in so it can be changed.
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EDIT: I think I confused the green section (from roadwaywiz's recent WV Webinar (https://youtu.be/1Wim12cWxmY?t=5465)) with the part being built from WV 123 to US 460 scheduled to be completed later this year.
Well, when that opens, let's hope that the 'Truck' US-52 in Bluefield (https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?units=miles&u=null&r=wv.us052trkblu) will be decommissioned as well. That and US-52 gaining a business route into town on the current route of US-52.
I doubt there will be a business route. WV does not do them for some reason.
It does annoy me that this results in US 19 going through Bluefield, VA/WV, while US 460 goes around town staying on Corridor Q.
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It does annoy me that this results in US 19 going through Bluefield, VA/WV, while US 460 goes around town staying on Corridor Q.
For all we know, this could all be on VA for that. There's no way to tell which state didn't want to do the reroute of US-19 onto the bypass.
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It does annoy me that this results in US 19 going through Bluefield, VA/WV, while US 460 goes around town staying on Corridor Q.
For all we know, this could all be on VA for that. There's no way to tell which state didn't want to do the reroute of US-19 onto the bypass.
It's possible, but personally I doubt it. VA has business routes all over the place. Also last I remember, there were still US 460 shields on US 19 in Bluefield, VA (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2534807,-81.272065,3a,75y,345.17h,91.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sf8uecZlwRAld6qaKr3WXBw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).
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Is there a reason why the points appear backwards?
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Is there a reason why the points appear backwards?
US 52 is signed N-S in WV so I have no problem with it.
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Is there a reason why the points appear backwards?
US 52 is signed N-S in WV so I have no problem with it.
This because this part isn't connected to anything else.
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It does annoy me that this results in US 19 going through Bluefield, VA/WV, while US 460 goes around town staying on Corridor Q.
For all we know, this could all be on VA for that. There's no way to tell which state didn't want to do the reroute of US-19 onto the bypass.
It's possible, but personally I doubt it. VA has business routes all over the place. Also last I remember, there were still US 460 shields on US 19 in Bluefield, VA (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2534807,-81.272065,3a,75y,345.17h,91.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sf8uecZlwRAld6qaKr3WXBw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).
Can't find anything specific in the CTB minutes or AASHO files on this question but it is almost certainly a West Virginia request. My theory is that West Virginia wanted to retain a primary designation through Bluefield, so instead of going through the trouble of making new signs for a WV route they left US 19 in place which given it is not of independent utility north of Bluefield for quite a ways would make the most sense. CTB minutes did seem to call the bypass the US 19/460 bypass initially.
US 460 shields (including one cutout) were still in Bluefield VA as of summer 2020.
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I'm not sure if this affects anything, but it is worth noting.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=11115.msg2608365#msg2608365
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I'm not sure if this affects anything, but it is worth noting.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=11115.msg2608365#msg2608365
Until I have proof signage has changed (meaning signage along WV-65 & WV-44 going to the KCH), I'm not putting the 'main' route onto the KCH. This is the whole reason I created the separate file for the KCH segment (https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?units=miles&u=null&r=wv.us052kin).
WVDOH items have been showing that it's been rerouted since at least 2017. Yet, no AASHTO submission, or proper signage change in the field yet.
Problem is, that the WVDOT county maps clearly show the 'old' route as CR-252/57 now. And the map is as-of August '17.
ftp://gis.transportation.wv.gov/GISCountyMaps/MingoSHEET%202WB.pdf
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EDIT: I think I confused the green section (from roadwaywiz's recent WV Webinar (https://youtu.be/1Wim12cWxmY?t=5465)) with the part being built from WV 123 to US 460 scheduled to be completed later this year.
Well, when that opens, let's hope that the 'Truck' US-52 in Bluefield (https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?units=miles&u=null&r=wv.us052trkblu) will be decommissioned as well. That and US-52 gaining a business route into town on the current route of US-52.
Has anybody heard anything new about the Bluefield part?
Latest article I could find was from Aug 8th, 2021.
https://www.bdtonline.com/news/work-approaching-major-milestone-on-bluefield-s-king-coal-highway-bridge/article_7f4c7b4c-f7eb-11eb-96e2-07ba19db0acf.html
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EDIT: I think I confused the green section (from roadwaywiz's recent WV Webinar (https://youtu.be/1Wim12cWxmY?t=5465)) with the part being built from WV 123 to US 460 scheduled to be completed later this year.
Well, when that opens, let's hope that the 'Truck' US-52 in Bluefield (https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?units=miles&u=null&r=wv.us052trkblu) will be decommissioned as well. That and US-52 gaining a business route into town on the current route of US-52.
Has anybody heard anything new about the Bluefield part?
Latest article I could find was from Aug 8th, 2021.
https://www.bdtonline.com/news/work-approaching-major-milestone-on-bluefield-s-king-coal-highway-bridge/article_7f4c7b4c-f7eb-11eb-96e2-07ba19db0acf.html
There is a Sept 7 article but is more vague than the August one, saying open sometime this year:
https://www.register-herald.com/news/state_region/justice-determined-to-see-king-coal-highway-finished/article_a44d2cbb-e49b-5b1a-9661-41876f6c0f34.html
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Well, it seems WVDOT has now officially rerouted US-52 onto the WV-44 connector down to the King Coal Highway per current StreetView as of Aug '22. Still no recorded of a submission to the AASHTO for the change, but the signage change in the filed is done.
https://goo.gl/maps/xRj3hL453uPheZuy7
Based on that, WV-44 has been shortened, but I can't be 100% sure, as that's the only '22 imagery there. The closer you get to the US-52/WV-44 intersection, it defaults back to '16 imagery.
So, guessing I'm just going to have to wait a little bit longer for them to get the rest of the new imagery up to know for sure.
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My hope is to investigate this Wednesday afternoon as I head down to Charlotte. However, a combination of the incoming tropical system (now named Nicole) and my wife changing her flight to go into Charlotte Wednesday evening may thwart my plan.
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Alright. Appreciate you at least attempting to check on this.
What I really need to know on this for sure, is the little bit of 'WV-44' south of the King Coal still signed @ the intersection. Sure, will mean I have to split up WV-44, but want to know this at least. That's the main thing that is holding me up from pushing an update to this so we can finally close down this thread as solved.
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Also, if you happen to be going past Bluefield, any update on the US-52 bypass would be appreciated too. Should be close to opening I would think at least.
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So I did make it there this afternoon. AFAICT, no signage has changed. The old route is still signed as US 52. The new route only has US 52 trailblazers at each end...no reassurance shields. And 44 is signed to the T-intersection at the above-mentioned county roads. Though one of those county roads curiously had both "NORTH WV 44" and "TO WV 44" shields posted almost right next to each other.
I did not check out the Bluefield extension because I was pressed for time but I also found a local news article which mentioned it would not open until next year.
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So I did make it there this afternoon. AFAICT, no signage has changed. The old route is still signed as US 52. The new route only has US 52 trailblazers at each end...no reassurance shields. And 44 is signed to the T-intersection at the above-mentioned county roads. Though one of those county roads curiously had both "NORTH WV 44" and "TO WV 44" shields posted almost right next to each other.
So, this is the only thing that has changed since Dec '16 (and the pair of signs at the intersection going 'NB' in the background) StreetView?
https://goo.gl/maps/xRj3hL453uPheZuy7
And this pair of WV-44 is still as-is in StreetView, correct?
https://goo.gl/maps/dxFZcCLyMBNNU57fA
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Did not notice the first one (I was heading southbound and had just left the gas station with traffic), but the northbound signs at the intersection itself (with 44 in both directions and 52 continuing on the old road) are still the same as they were on the 2016 GMSV.
The pair of 44 at the other end are still there, as are the trailblazers at the county road junction.
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but the northbound signs at the intersection itself (with 44 in both directions and 52 continuing on the old road) are still the same as they were on the 2016 GMSV.
You mean they reverted them already?!?!
Aug '22 imagery showing US-52 going left 'NB' at the intersection itself (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.6494648,-81.9987055,3a,15y,303.71h,87.48t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8V2NfCjPVm3Y8PMvoeOMcg!2e0!5s20220801T000000!7i16384!8i8192)
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I'll have to dig back through my photos...but I'm pretty sure what I saw is the same as what existed in 2016.
(EDIT) The only photo I took at that intersection was along NB 44, which shows the same thing as 2016 GMSV.
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Lovely, WVDOH doing another halfass signage job.... :pan: :pan: :pan: :pan: :pan: :pan: :pan:
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Google finally uploaded the rest of the StreetView imagery for the intersection so you can now fully see their half-ass job. :pan:
NB showing US-52 going onto the 'old' WV-44 connector. (https://goo.gl/maps/TEPNQVgMfuEjKCaX9)
SB showing that the connector is still WV-44 instead. (https://goo.gl/maps/xYuVFT6eX3BcNcq68)
Sadly, no new imagery on the King Coal, WV-44 connector, or WV-65 (itself).
However, they did at least add new 2022 imagery @ the US-52/WV-65 intersection itself, showing that all signage points to the 'old' road as still the mainline for US-52 in the area.
https://goo.gl/maps/XBHgVj4h3vaUJPoK6
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Fun, StreetView has been back to the area again in July '23, and they finally traveled on the 'reroute' of WV-44 to the intersection.
Even on SB WV-44, it's saying that US-52 is staying on the 'old' route (https://maps.app.goo.gl/PFDpziL185bv9woV9). Ah, gotta love WV and their stupid half-ass signage jobs. :(
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And here's another little fun thing, on the road that the 'WV-44 stub' connects to, it has 2 sets of signage....
1 says 'TO WV-44' for the 'stub', and the other says 'NB WV-44; TO US-52'. Joy........ https://maps.app.goo.gl/yFTbTKYVt81AUcM27
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And here's another little fun thing, on the road that the 'WV-44 stub' connects to, it has 2 sets of signage....
1 says 'TO WV-44' for the 'stub', and the other says 'NB WV-44; TO US-52'. Joy........ https://maps.app.goo.gl/yFTbTKYVt81AUcM27
If you look upthread, I reported the same thing back in November.