Travel Mapping

Highway Data Discussion => In-progress Highway Systems & Work => Topic started by: Spinoza on June 28, 2017, 04:19:36 am

Title: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: Spinoza on June 28, 2017, 04:19:36 am
Hi,
if you'll ever want to implement Italian Strada Statale (SS) network into the site, ANAS (State owned managing company) has released its complete registry:

http://www.stradeanas.it/it/le-strade/anas-regione

It is divided by region and it shows all the roads currently nominated SS.
Title: Re: Italy strada statale SS network
Post by: si404 on June 28, 2017, 06:44:50 am
Excellent, thanks.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on June 29, 2017, 12:35:43 pm
@Spinoza: We currently work on splitting some European regions like it's already done for USA, Canada, China, Mexico,... The first step is splitting Spain, then Germany, so that we can add the next tier 5 level systems afterwards. We will break user list files once this will go live. For that reason, I think we should make all splits at once. I think if we ever wanna add the next Italian system - I guess it's SP -, I think we also have to spilt Italy into regions. For that reason, it's fine, that ANAS has divided the map into regions. Is there also any info about SP routes? Generally, what do you think about adding them somewhere down the road (2018, 2019, 2020,...)?

Sorry, again, I just wanna do the split action only once to bother our users only once....
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: si404 on June 29, 2017, 02:04:04 pm
I think if we ever wanna add the next Italian system - I guess it's SP -, I think we also have to spilt Italy into regions. For that reason, it's fine, that ANAS has divided the map into regions. Is there also any info about SP routes? Generally, what do you think about adding them somewhere down the road (2018, 2019, 2020,...)?
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strada_regionale - It's SR (though they seem rare). SP are another layer down!
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on July 07, 2017, 05:31:05 am
@Spinoza: We currently work on splitting some European regions like it's already done for USA, Canada, China, Mexico,... The first step is splitting Spain, then Germany, so that we can add the next tier 5 level systems afterwards. We will break user list files once this will go live. For that reason, I think we should make all splits at once. I think if we ever wanna add the next Italian system - I guess it's SP -, I think we also have to spilt Italy into regions. For that reason, it's fine, that ANAS has divided the map into regions. Is there also any info about SP routes? Generally, what do you think about adding them somewhere down the road (2018, 2019, 2020,...)?

Sorry, again, I just wanna do the split action only once to bother our users only once....

si404 is right, SR is between SS and SP, but to make things worse, they are not present in all the Italian regions. The only regions to allow such denomination are Abruzzo, Umbria, Toscana, Lazio, Piemonte, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Veneto and Puglia.

Another layer of complication, due to the particular legal status of Provinces Trento and Bolzano/Südtirol (which have simultaneous rights of provinces, regions and state), the SS are managed by the provinces but retain their original SS denomination.

As for provincial roads (SP) it should be easy to find out the former SS which are now managed by provinces... but the original SP, which have never been SS, are somewhat harder to identify. I guess some provinces mantain a comprehensive list of them, some others don't...

Italy's a mess...
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on July 07, 2017, 11:37:49 am
Another layer of complication, due to the particular legal status of Provinces Trento and Bolzano/Südtirol (which have simultaneous rights of provinces, regions and state), the SS are managed by the provinces but retain their original SS denomination.
As for provincial roads (SP) it should be easy to find out the former SS which are now managed by provinces... but the original SP, which have never been SS, are somewhat harder to identify. I guess some provinces mantain a comprehensive list of them, some others don't...

Do you think it would be easier to split Italy into regions (= provinces)?

This way we could:
- Add SP or SR routes depending on the province
- Draft provinces which have data published and omit other provinces (first)
- Bypass the Trentino-Alto Adige "issue"
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on July 09, 2017, 07:59:17 am
If we want to split Italy into subdivisions, I think that street-wise provinces are more interesting than regions but I guess we should use both layers.

Another layer of complication, due to the particular legal status of Provinces Trento and Bolzano/Südtirol (which have simultaneous rights of provinces, regions and state), the SS are managed by the provinces but retain their original SS denomination.
As for provincial roads (SP) it should be easy to find out the former SS which are now managed by provinces... but the original SP, which have never been SS, are somewhat harder to identify. I guess some provinces mantain a comprehensive list of them, some others don't...

Do you think it would be easier to split Italy into regions (= provinces)?

This way we could:
- Add SP or SR routes depending on the province
- Draft provinces which have data published and omit other provinces (first)
- Bypass the Trentino-Alto Adige "issue"
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on July 09, 2017, 11:51:12 am
The ISO 3166-2 code for the 20 regions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2:IT) is using numbers instead of characters though, e.g. IT-32 for Trentino-Alto Adige.

Characters are only used for the 110 provinces, e.g. IT-AG, but I think that's not the way we should go.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on July 20, 2017, 05:10:14 am
The ISO 3166-2 code for the 20 regions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2:IT) is using numbers instead of characters though, e.g. IT-32 for Trentino-Alto Adige.

Characters are only used for the 110 provinces, e.g. IT-AG, but I think that's not the way we should go.

Why not?
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on July 20, 2017, 06:37:31 am
Why not?

Why not IT-32 or why not 110 provinces?

I think the cryptic code with numbers is not user-friendly.

No need to think about regions or provinces now because Si has decided that we don't split Italy now:

Quote
I'm not going to split Italy - looking at how dense the SS roads are (and how they are hard work), I have no plans for itasr - we can always split it at some point in the distant future if necessary.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: si404 on July 21, 2017, 01:16:56 pm
I've got Sardinia drafted, and have begun work on Sicilian routes.

I've fudged some of the places where routes disappear either side of a town, but there's an applied route. However I've kept places where a route is fragmented due to changing number (eg SS125/SS125Var) - in part to highlight how annoying the Italian numbering system can be!
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on July 22, 2017, 12:46:25 pm

I thought you meant your are not going to use the province codes.
I agree you shouldn't use numbers for regions... there are already unofficial three-letter codes there are sometimes used (e.g. SAR for Sardinia, TAA for Trentino Alto Adige, MAR for Marches and so on...)

Why not?

Why not IT-32 or why not 110 provinces?

I think the cryptic code with numbers is not user-friendly.

No need to think about regions or provinces now because Si has decided that we don't split Italy now:

Quote
I'm not going to split Italy - looking at how dense the SS roads are (and how they are hard work), I have no plans for itasr - we can always split it at some point in the distant future if necessary.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on July 27, 2017, 10:55:13 am
First patch of routes from the south is available now: http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?sys=itass :)
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: si404 on August 05, 2017, 04:20:03 am
I now have almost routes south of Rome done, as well as routes in the NW and far NE.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: cinx on August 07, 2017, 03:09:19 pm
Great job guys. I can hardly wait to add some new clinched roads :D
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on August 09, 2017, 05:01:29 am
ANAS is in the process of regaining ownership of some roads previously transferred to Regions and Provinces.

Here's the list:
http://www.stradeanas.it/it/conferenza-unificata-libera-al-trasferimento-ad-anas-di-oltre-3500-km-rete-nazionale-e-regionale

Not sure when the actual transfer will take place.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: si404 on August 09, 2017, 06:01:13 am
There were (I've only really got the North left to do) various routes in Marche (in particular) that ANAS listed, but didn't have a trace on and had descriptions like "SS456: from ex SS123" with SS123's listing having "from exSS456". I added a couple of them that were more major, even though mapping had them as SR routes, while left the ones I found it hard to trace. However these all seem to be coming back.

I believe Trentino-Sud-Tyrol signs the SS routes its provinces maintain as SS roads, rather than not having any.

And the whole creation of routes would be so much easier if they didn't break every time there was a newish bypass that had a bannered route (mostly Var) or - in the case of SS9 that I did last night - were discontinuous at every town of size mostly because of bypasses in the SS7xx range.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on August 09, 2017, 07:37:24 am
I believe Trentino-Sud-Tyrol signs the SS routes its provinces maintain as SS roads, rather than not having any.

This is true, Trentino and Alto-Adige are autonomous regions, and have a lot of state-like competences. The SS routes there are still named as such, and basically are, even though they are managed by the autonomous provinces.

Quote
And the whole creation of routes would be so much easier if they didn't break every time there was a newish bypass that had a bannered route (mostly Var) or - in the case of SS9 that I did last night - were discontinuous at every town of size mostly because of bypasses in the SS7xx range.

Amen to that...
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: si404 on August 12, 2017, 02:18:12 pm
"It ass" is a very good description for this system (is Italian Road Numbering the worst in the EU?), but I 'only' have 50 routes left (unless I find yet more hiding in TAA), so it's almost there with the current lot (obviously there's the new bunch mentioned upthread) and I expect to be finished in the next couple of days.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on August 12, 2017, 04:22:21 pm
(is Italian Road Numbering the worst in the EU?)

You've not yet completed grceo...
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: si404 on August 12, 2017, 07:20:27 pm
Greece's isn't as bad - the issues I've found are more to do with alphabet, mountains, and most importantly: poor signage and mapping.

Italy's is logical, reasonably well signed, and most importantly: utterly crazy in its fastidiousness for the rules. This means SS routes going through towns and over passes while the province has bypassed it with a high quality SP road, or routes breaking because they haven't gone and fixed all the chainage markers downstream of an improvement so its SS123-SS123 Var-SS123.

Spain's Autovia/pista numbering comes a very close second with the prefix proliferation, but it doesn't have the annoying features Italy has, save on rare occasion - its sins are different.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on August 14, 2017, 10:51:10 am
SS49 wayppint SS49_S should be renamed to SS49bis. The E66 wp should also be renamed.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on August 17, 2017, 04:42:06 am
The end waypoint of SS77Fol should be renamed SS3 instead of SS3Bis.

Also, SS16 dir/b near Ancona (Marche) is missing from the list.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on August 17, 2017, 03:44:47 pm
SS16 dir/b

dir/b :o really?
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: si404 on August 17, 2017, 04:35:28 pm
It's the second Dir route, so 'b'. I deliberately left it off in the hopes that no one would miss this short route that doesn't connect to any other. However I've done it now.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on September 30, 2017, 04:59:51 am
SS1:
New wp @SP128 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=42.471907&lon=11.235634
New wp @SP105 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=42.356035&lon=11.591810
SP104 wp is off track and nothing intersects here, it's the beginning of the new A12 section


SS1bis:
Why is it not called by a csv entry?
It ends in Vetrala according to OSM/GM
SS675 wp label is not perfect because SS675 is u/c to be extended to the west by 2018. There will be a new SS675 exit/wp at a different location


SS1civ:
I think it ends anywhere in Roma, see OSM and GSV (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8894711,12.4109196,3a,15y,315.6h,94.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saOAYybCGQjdQFPeCUGyPSw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
New wp @SP15b http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.923027&lon=12.188934
GSJ @ http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.935994&lon=12.133386
Shouldn't SS698 being extended to SS1 ViaIso wp?


SS1dir:
fine


SSdirGri:
fine


SS1liv:
SP9 should be moved to the junction
SP4Bis or SP4bis ? It's a general issue...
FILI --> SGCFirLiv
FIPI --> SGCFirPisa
A11 --> A11_S
A15 should be moved to http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.133793&lon=9.899368
Please add a shape point to A15 south of the exit because both routes look like being concurrent on mapview


SS1rac:
Should be SS1racc with double c?
I tried to find signs on GSV but I couldn't fine one. Should it be removed?


SS1rap:
fine


SS1sav:
Is ViaSanGla really necessary?
SP8_W should be moved to the roundabout
Is ViaGiaCoz really necessary?
Is CorAugMom really necessary?
See SSvarvar for wp label (name)


SS1var:
See SS1Rac for wp label (name)
Shoud it be var/a?


SS1varvar:
IS SSvarvar really signed? It's not indicated on OSM/GM and I couldn*t find a sign on GSV
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on October 02, 2017, 02:34:20 pm
SS3:
GSJ @  http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=43.014026&lon=12.748003
New wp @ http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=42.923227&lon=12.727693


SS675/E45:
Concurrency is broken twice


SS3bis (and concurrent E45):
SP7_C wp must be moved to the interchange
Exceeds limits b/n SP138_C and ViaPonSor
ViaBas --> SR221?
Not sure if SS219 should be repositioned but SP175_N, StrBra, SP175_S, SS318_N, ViaVal, ViaTra, SP375_N, SP375_S, SP400, ViaTab and ViaRis must be repositioned


SS3nar:
Are you sure about the northern end? OSM and GM indicate it up to SS79/SS675. I had a quick look and found signs at a roundabount in Terni (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5587784,12.6559925,3a,15y,183.21h,86.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOuTMmWrmmFRPrQnnxz1_NQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)


SS4:
Exceeds limits b/n SS685 and SP61
Bac_W: The exit is called "Sud" (South)


SS4dir:
Fine


SS4:
Source? It is not indicated on GM, SP236 on OSM but a SS4 sign (I guess an old sign or meaning "to") on October 2016 GSV (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8443252,13.6341048,3a,15y,148.31h,91.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sI0QSslsv7qErIwfYvO0TUA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). I found remove the route if there is no other evidence. I even found SS16/SS18 here: November 2014 GSV (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8495462,13.6339744,3a,37.5y,108.57h,84.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syy9diCt08yXXDzu1ZJOapg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) but there is only SS4 and SS81...
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: si404 on October 04, 2017, 04:55:34 am
Some basic general response to these review points before I look at specifics.

My source for endpoints/route existence is the ANAS directory of routes. As such, there are some odd ends and unsigned routes. Signage in Italy is often misleading as to whether it the road number is a 'to', or the actual number, or just outdated. I'll happily extend a short distance to a logical endpoint (eg through a town to another route) if there is a sign.

Rac is indeed Racc, but there's a 3-character Banner limit and 'SPUR' banners have always been Spr and Racc banners have always been Rac
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Duke87 on October 07, 2017, 12:17:00 pm
Linguistic nitpick here: the name of the system should be Strade Statale - the noun and adjective need to match in number and gender.  :)

Una Strada Statala
Due Strade Statale

"Strada Statale" is a singular noun with a plural adjective.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on December 04, 2017, 05:46:51 am
Linguistic nitpick here: the name of the system should be Strade Statale - the noun and adjective need to match in number and gender.  :)

Una Strada Statala
Due Strade Statale

"Strada Statale" is a singular noun with a plural adjective.

Mmm, not really.
The correct forms are: "Una strada statale", "due strade statali". In Italian, noun-adjective concordance does not always mean same ending.

"Una rosa gialla" and "due rose gialle"
but
"Una rosa verde" and "due rose verdi"



It seems there are some other national roads, specified in the ANAS website, which are not in this database.
For instance, NSA 12 di Verrone, NSA 357 della Val Vigezzo, both in region Piemonte. Since I drove NSA 12, I noticed its absence.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on December 31, 2017, 09:51:57 am
SS5 + SS5Ori + SS5Qua:
Fine


SS6:
+X828144 could be removed


SS6Dir:
Fine


SS7 + SS7Cas:
I minimum saw a sign in the roundabout at the current SS7 end. It's confirmed by OSM and GM and routes could be merged but ANAS says NO!


SS7Ben:
SS7_S --> RA9_xxx
GSJ @ http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.879212&lon=14.986811
New wp @ http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.735161&lon=15.497144
Extends to Potenza according to GSV, GM and OSM but not by ANAS. I should check ANAS first next time...


SS7DirBor:
Couldn't find any "SS7Bis" sign on OSM/GM/GSV (only OSM "SS7quarter")


Remaining SS7xxx:
All fine
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: yakra on January 04, 2018, 11:16:19 pm
A bit late to the party here.
Italy is the first I've been aware (http://tm.teresco.org/forum/index.php?topic=2325.msg8630#msg8630) of banners being used outside of North America. (Is there anywhere else?)
The standard in North America has been for every bannered route to have both a City and Abbrev. I like the idea of, for consistency's sake, expanding that to be a sitewide standard. (Not saying there's no way in Centralia you'd convince me otherwise though.)

Similarly, in itaa.csv, maybe
itaa;ITA;A18;Dir;;Diramazione per Catania;ita.a018dircat;A18Cat
->
itaa;ITA;A18;Dir;Cat;Diramazione per Catania;ita.a018dircat;A18Dir,A18Cat
...and the .list name would match the route root.

--There are some cases of unique Route+Banner combinations still having a City & Abbrev, E.G ita.ss027vargig.
Consistency would dictate either losing the City & Abbrev, or adding City & Abbrev to all bannered routes. Again, I prefer the latter approach.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on January 05, 2018, 11:05:10 am
(Is there anywhere else?)

I use ALT banner in combination with city names in Germany (3+3 characters)

http://tm.teresco.org/forum/index.php?topic=289
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on January 06, 2018, 10:00:45 am
SS9Dir:
There is no corresponding SS472 route to SS472 waypoint


SS9Fid:
New wp west of Pontenure (junction to bypass)


SS9For:
SP9? Is it signed anywhere? OSM/GM do not indicate it.


Other SS9 routes:
Fine
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: panda80 on January 26, 2018, 04:05:23 am
What happened withe the italian SS? It dissappeared from the highway browser.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: si404 on January 26, 2018, 06:30:12 am
Making bannered routes conform with the rest of the site created loads of errors. I've got a fixed ready to be inputted, so it'll be back tomorrow hopefully.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on January 26, 2018, 01:07:06 pm
I'll continue the peer-review once itass will be back and graphs will be updated in a week or so (http://tm.teresco.org/forum/index.php?topic=1904.msg8794#msg8794).
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Jim on January 26, 2018, 01:33:12 pm
@si404 if you can get the pull request in soon (before about 2:15 EST) I can run an extra update to get this system back in the DB.  That would allow me to include graph generation one more time since my students are unlikely to have started working with any graphs yet on the new assignment they just got a couple hours ago.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on January 26, 2018, 03:03:21 pm
No need to rush! I just wanted Si to know that I'll continue soon. It's (shortcut of it ass) is less painful than the next system on my list... korex... Maybe I should continue with svkii or svnr.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: si404 on January 26, 2018, 03:39:17 pm
Don't worry about graph creation and the like - the addition of NSA routes (basically unnumbered SS roads that have been numbered with something else) is going to occupy me on this system for a while.

As for peer review - I don't mind if you do continue reviewing itass, but would love korex to be done. As a motorway system with (mostly) numbered exits it is much less of an ass than itass, IMO, plus not doing itass allows me to look at signage and add NSA routes and such like.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on January 26, 2018, 04:12:11 pm
NSA routes (basically unnumbered SS roads that have been numbered with something else)

A system of unnumbered routes? Another tier 4 or tier 5?
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: si404 on January 27, 2018, 11:38:39 am
A system of unnumbered routes? Another tier 4 or tier 5?
They are Strada Statale, just not having SS numbers yet (or detrunked yet if heading the other direction), so they are going in itass just as all the green-hexagon roads are in itaa, even if they aren't Axx.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on January 27, 2018, 12:20:48 pm
A system of unnumbered routes? Another tier 4 or tier 5?
They are Strada Statale, just not having SS numbers yet (or detrunked yet if heading the other direction), so they are going in itass just as all the green-hexagon roads are in itaa, even if they aren't Axx.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strade_statali_in_Italia

Quote
NSA (nuova strada ANAS), strade in attesa di classificazione
Google translated:
Quote
NSA (new road ANAS), roads waiting for classification

Sounds similar to future US interstates but there are also "ex" NSA routes. Former SS routes are "future" SS routes now....  ;D

I guess it will be a tier 5 system?

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuova_strada_ANAS
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on February 05, 2018, 03:15:56 am
I think you guys should seriously put a changelog every time you modify route names... now I found myself with a bunch of Italy SS roads with different names and cannot understand what they changed into...
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: si404 on February 05, 2018, 05:17:42 am
Sorry, that's my fault. We have a system that keeps old route names to save people changing them and I didn't employ it. I too need to go and fix my .list file too.

We have a change log for active systems, but not for preview ones, which we do warn that "These may still undergo significant changes without notification." on the front page.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on February 05, 2018, 12:12:43 pm
It's always possible to track down changes on GitHub, even for preview systems. For instance, the latest itass route name changes can be found here (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/commit/8c7d2259c65b66301f3e9cc986e5fbfdffd2cfd9#diff-aca2f4dac82a022c7b889edf4c56feaf).

@Spinoza: If you are not sure, just ask here and I could try to figure out what you have to change.

============================

General note:
Yes, systems are sometimes very long in preview and undergo a lot of changes, e.g. deub, my first system drafted. I had to learn how to draft systems.
I don't think that we should indicate these changes on the site. That's only done for active systems (http://tm.teresco.org/devel/updates.php) and the list is already quite long. I think we should try to activate systems earlier. More than 1 year is just too much...
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on February 09, 2018, 05:44:34 am
Thank you, I didn't realize itass was still in preview. It makes more sense.

It's always possible to track down changes on GitHub, even for preview systems. For instance, the latest itass route name changes can be found here (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/commit/8c7d2259c65b66301f3e9cc986e5fbfdffd2cfd9#diff-aca2f4dac82a022c7b889edf4c56feaf).
1
@Spinoza: If you are not sure, just ask here and I could try to figure out what you have to change.

============================

General note:
Yes, systems are sometimes very long in preview and undergo a lot of changes, e.g. deub, my first system drafted. I had to learn how to draft systems.
I don't think that we should indicate these changes on the site. That's only done for active systems (http://tm.teresco.org/devel/updates.php) and the list is already quite long. I think we should try to activate systems earlier. More than 1 year is just too much...
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on May 30, 2018, 04:25:36 am
Starting next July 3500 km of regional and provincial roads are going to be transferred to the state (ANAS). If I can find a comprehensive list I will post it here.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on August 07, 2018, 10:45:25 am
Starting next July 3500 km of regional and provincial roads are going to be transferred to the state (ANAS). If I can find a comprehensive list I will post it here.

This is the official list of roads that are in the process of being transferred back to ANAS:

http://www.stradeanas.it/it/le-strade/rientro-strade

For now, only roads in Liguria have been effectively transferred back, starting 1st August:
http://www.stradeanas.it/sites/default/files/pdf/REGIONE%20LIGURIA%20-%20STRADE%20DA%20RICLASSIFICARE_20180731.pdf
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on September 19, 2018, 07:05:48 am
SS83 is not just 5 km: the whole 81 km of it is Strada Statale.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on September 24, 2018, 06:03:33 am
Starting 1st October 2018, 240 km of regional and provincial roads in region Umbria will be re-dedicated as Strada Statale:

Provincial roads:
SP 169 del Pantano, SP 170/2 di Maestrello and SP 172/1 di Corciano which are part of route Pierantonio-San Giovanni del Pantano-Mantignana (20.6 km overall)

Regional roads:
SR3 Flaminia (21.3 km from Fossato di Vico and border with Marche)
SR71 Umbro Casentinese (96 km from border with Lazio to border with Toscana)
SR74 Maremmana (10.5 km from border with Lazio to junction with SR71)
SR146 di Chianciano (0.67 km near border with Toscana)
SR209 Valnerina (29.2 km from Terni to Sant'Anatolia di Narco)
SR320 di Cascia (12.2 km from Cascia to junction with SS685)
SR361 Septempedana (10.5 km from Nocera Umbria to junction with SS3)
SR418 Spoletina (16.4 km from Acquasparta to San Giovanni di Baiano)
SR452 della Contessa (9.5 km from Gubbio to border with Marche)
SR471 di Leonessa (15.7 km from border with Lazio to junction with SS685)

Conversely, some SS roads are transferred to region Umbria:

SS77 Val di Chienti and SS3318 di Valfabbrica (the old routes bypassed by the new expressways which replaced them), 45 km overall.

https://www.perugiatoday.it/attualita/strade-umbria-gestione-anas-mappa.html
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on September 24, 2018, 06:58:36 am
Also starting 1st October, 150 km of provincial roads in region Molise will be transferred back to ANAS to become Strada Statale (SS).

In Province Isernia:
SP1 (ex SS627) and SP1/var "della Vandra"

In Province Campobasso:
Tangenziale Est of Campobasso
SP "Fondo Valle Rivolo"
SP154 (ex SS87) "Sant'Elia"
SP40 "Adriatica"
SP146 "Falcionina"
SP166 "dei Tre Titoli"
SP159 "Stazione Bonefro-Valle del Biferno"
SP163 (ex SS157) "della Valle del Biferno"
SP139 "Fossaltina"
SP138 "Fossalto-Pietracupa"
SP "Comunità montana"
SP41 "Garibaldi"
SP15 "Trignina"
SP77 "Chietina"

Conversely, some state roads will be demoted to provincial:

To Province Isernia:
some stretches of SS85 "Venafrana" and SS158

To Province Campobasso:
stretches of SS647/dir B "Fondo valle del Biferno", SS645, SS212 "della Val Fortore", SS87 Sannitica", NSA 366, NSA 340, NSA 278, NSA 365, NSA 395

Unfortunately not even ANAS is more precise.

http://www.stradeanas.it/it/molise-dal-1%C2%B0-ottobre-passano-gestione-ad-anas-150-km-di-strade-provinciali

Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on September 24, 2018, 11:19:46 am
Most of Italian Autostrada routes (active itaa system) do not have numbered exits but use wp label names of crossing routes. Of course, many exits are called "SSxxx". It seems to be right according to OSM and to what's signed in the field but we do not have the SS routes in HB. Just an example: RA13 exit SS14 (http://travelmapping.net/hb/index.php?u=michih&r=ita.ra013). This SS14 segment is not in HB!

Is it ok or should the wp labels being changed? Or should the SS routes being drafted?
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on September 25, 2018, 09:06:57 am
Most of Italian Autostrada routes (active itaa system) do not have numbered exits but use wp label names of crossing routes. Of course, many exits are called "SSxxx". It seems to be right according to OSM and to what's signed in the field but we do not have the SS routes in HB. Just an example: RA13 exit SS14 (http://travelmapping.net/hb/index.php?u=michih&r=ita.ra013). This SS14 segment is not in HB!

Is it ok or should the wp labels being changed? Or should the SS routes being drafted?

In that particular instance, the road USED TO be SS14 but now is classified as SR14. Problem is that many times, on the downgraded route, signs are not changed. OSM itself shows that route as both SS14 and SR14.
In my opinion, the wp labels at motorway intersection should be named as the official exit name, in this case "Sistiana".
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on September 25, 2018, 11:14:57 am
In my opinion, the wp labels at motorway intersection should be named as the official exit name, in this case "Sistiana".

I agree but it doesn't match our rules :) I think it should be SR14.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on October 30, 2018, 09:52:27 am
SS38VarDel has been extended from its current end in Cosio Valtellino to a roundabout after Morbegno.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on November 22, 2018, 09:39:59 am
Starting last 17 November, 553 km of Provincial and Regional roads in region Tuscany are assigned to ANAS (itass):

- 2 "Cassia" for 80.2 km, from Latium border to Siena sud;
- 65 "della Futa", for 57 km from Florence to Emilia-Romagna border;
- 66 "Pistoiese" for 27.1 km from junction to SS716 to San Marcello Pistoiese (junction to SS12);
- 68 "di Val Cecina" for 63 km from Cecina to Poggibonsi (junction to RA3), excluding stretches inside Cecina and Colle Val d'Elsa;
- 71 "Umbro Casentinese Romagnola", for 1 km from Umbria border to junction to RA6;
- 146 "di Chianciano" for 46.4 km from Umbria border to junction to SS2 in San Quirico d'Orcia;
- 330 "di Buonviaggio" for 2.9 km from Liguria border to junction to SS62 in Caprigliola;
- 398 "di Val di Cornia" for 36.3 km from junction to SS439 to junction to SS1 in Campiglia Marittima;
- 439 "Sarzanese-Val d'Era" for 157.1 km from Follonica to Pietrasanta excluding stretches inside Pietrasanta, Lucca, Pontedera and Ponsacco;
- 439var "Variante di Pontedera and Ponsacco" for 12.5 km from junction to SS67 to Ponsacco;
- 439dir for 16.8 km from junction to SS439 in San Michele to junction to SS68 in Roncolla;
- 665 "Massese" for 28.4 km from Emilia-Romagna border to junction to SS62 near Aulla;
- provincial 719 "Prato-Pistoia" for 24 km from A1 Prato/Calenzano to junction to SS716 in Pistoia.

http://www.stradeanas.it/it/toscana-tornano-gestione-anas-553-chilometri-di-ex-strade-statali
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on November 26, 2018, 09:04:02 am
Having received no feedback I'm not sure if my updates here are useful...
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: si404 on November 26, 2018, 09:30:59 am
They are, just that this system is a whole lot of mess right now that I need a big block of time to sort out.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on November 26, 2018, 04:14:14 pm
Dottore Spinoza, your comments are always welcomed :)
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on November 27, 2018, 05:25:23 am
Thank you, I didn't mean no pressure...  :D
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on December 13, 2018, 09:05:38 am
Starting last November, 87 km of provincial roads in region Basilicata were transferred to ANAS and are now Strada Statale:

- SP13 della Valle del Sarmento for 8 km, from junction with SS653 to junction with SP29;
- SP29 Valsinni-Noepoli for 0.9 km, from junction with SP13 to junction with SP155;
- SP148 Melfi-Leonessa for 10.6 km, from Melfi to Leonessa;
- SP149 Melfi-Sata for 10 km, from junction with SP148 to junction with SP158;
- SP155 Sarmentana for 5.4 km, from junction with SS92 to junction with SP158;
- SP158 Sinnica-Sarmentana for 5.8 km, from junction with SS653 to junction with SP155;
- SP Bradanica for 10.572 km, from junction to SS655 near S.Maria d'Irsi to junction with SS7 near Matera;
- SP Nerico-Bella Muro for 33.6 km, from junction with SS401 in Nerico to junction with SS7 in Bella Muro
- SP Svincolo di Tito for 2.172 km, near retail area Tito.

https://www.stradeanas.it/sites/default/files/pdf/REGIONE%20BASILICATA%20-%20STRADE%20DA%20RICLASSIFICARE.pdf
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on December 17, 2018, 11:10:56 am
Starting next 1st January, 283 km of roads in region Calabria will be trasferred to ANAS (itass system).

https://www.stradeanas.it/sites/default/files/pdf/REGIONE%20CALABRIA%20-%20STRADE%20DA%20RICLASSIFICARE.pdf

list is inside the pdf file.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on May 19, 2019, 02:55:50 pm
E74/SS231 concurrency is broken in Bra.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on May 20, 2019, 03:38:37 pm
SS27 Variney end point is labeled "T2" but there is no T2 in HB. T2 is signed (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7422711,7.3831781,3a,15y,353.61h,95.44t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1s2Scj9juqat7wArDofv_Kww!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!9m2!1b1!2i36) though*

*Edit: Which means... nothing. Italy often signs route numbers from anywhere down the road.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: panda80 on June 11, 2019, 03:04:38 am
Concurrency between SS49 and E66 is broken in Innichen.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on July 31, 2019, 04:15:41 pm
New routes in the SS742 to SS752 range: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=161141324&postcount=11330
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on August 14, 2019, 06:14:30 am
Is the update of ITASS stopped?

I reported SS83 almost a year ago... (not to mention all the roads which are transferred back to ANAS)

Just to know
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on August 14, 2019, 04:09:45 pm
(not to mention all the roads which are transferred back to ANAS)

You've only reported lists for some regions. Is the "list" complete? And is the administrative decision final or are there still changes to be expected?
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: si404 on August 15, 2019, 06:24:14 am
I was going to do all the changes, including construction and proof reading and tweaks and all that in one big go when all the changes from renumbering routes died down. It's basically going to be a redo of the whole system.

Probably in the fall, but as michih has said, not all regions have lists of transferred routes yet.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on August 15, 2019, 10:40:19 am
I didn't write that but asked whether all regions have published lists.
And, is the ANAS map (https://www.stradeanas.it/it/le-strade/anas-regione) already updated?
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: si404 on August 15, 2019, 11:27:41 am
I didn't write that but asked whether all regions have published lists.
sorry yes, though without an answer to whether the relevant ones have all updated, there's little point in overhauling the system.
Quote
And, is the ANAS map (https://www.stradeanas.it/it/le-strade/anas-regione) already updated?
that will be useful. Can't easily check on my phone.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on August 15, 2019, 11:53:39 am
Sure, the question was to spinoza ;)
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on August 19, 2019, 04:41:44 am
(not to mention all the roads which are transferred back to ANAS)

You've only reported lists for some regions. Is the "list" complete? And is the administrative decision final or are there still changes to be expected?

The decision is final: the dates I reported are those of effective change in management.
Regarding regions, I reported all the changes that were published. I will look into the news to see if I overlooked something.

As for ANAS website, it appears it is not updated yet  :pan:
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: michih on November 27, 2019, 12:54:01 pm
As for ANAS website, it appears it is not updated yet  :pan:

Is it updated now?

If not, do the pdfs per region indicate the routes which were transferred? https://www.stradeanas.it/it/le-strade/rientro-strade

Sorry if it's BS, I just saw a post on another forum with this link.... ;)
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on December 01, 2019, 10:03:21 am
As for ANAS website, it appears it is not updated yet  :pan:

Is it updated now?

If not, do the pdfs per region indicate the routes which were transferred? https://www.stradeanas.it/it/le-strade/rientro-strade

Sorry if it's BS, I just saw a post on another forum with this link.... ;)

Yes, all regions I posted here are updated: Tuscany, Liguria, Molise, Basilicata, Umbria, Calabria, and also Abruzzo, Campania, Latium.
Marche and Puglia are updated but the new roads do not show in the map, only in the dropdown menu.
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: michih on June 01, 2020, 02:36:07 pm
The last remaining European tier 4 system in Europe (except of Russia which is not Europe IMO). @Si, any plan to pay tribute to battered Italy?
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: Spinoza on August 13, 2020, 04:59:15 am
The last remaining European tier 4 system in Europe (except of Russia which is not Europe IMO). @Si, any plan to pay tribute to battered Italy?

 :D :D
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: si404 on August 13, 2020, 08:05:00 am
I'm getting round to it. Hopefully sometime soon.
Title: Italy SS675 end point
Post by: nezinscot on September 06, 2020, 11:15:20 am
Just an FYI. I know the system is in preview mode.  The western start point for SS675 appears to be incorrect. SS675 starts nearer Monte Romano, branching off from SS1Bis at a rotary that is approx 1.5 miles NE of Monte Romano. GSV confirms this.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on October 09, 2020, 05:14:10 am
As for ANAS website, it appears it is not updated yet  :pan:

Is it updated now?

If not, do the pdfs per region indicate the routes which were transferred? https://www.stradeanas.it/it/le-strade/rientro-strade

Sorry if it's BS, I just saw a post on another forum with this link.... ;)

Yes, all regions I posted here are updated: Tuscany, Liguria, Molise, Basilicata, Umbria, Calabria, and also Abruzzo, Campania, Latium.
Marche and Puglia are updated but the new roads do not show in the map, only in the dropdown menu.

I contacted ANAS to let them know of the outdated maps.
They answered that they have programmed the maps update - but alas they didn't give me any time frame.
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: si404 on October 09, 2020, 10:12:15 am
Thanks for that.
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: Spinoza on March 10, 2021, 03:11:03 am
There is an error in Italy "Strade statale":

SS690 is shown as going past Sora arriving at the junction SS509 near Atina.
As a matter of fact SS690 ends at junction "Sora Nord" (SR82_Sora). Everything south of it is called "SSV Sora-A1" and it is not a "SS" despite a similar denomination (it is in fact a provincial road).

And please, can you also correct the label "Strade statale"? It's either "Strada statale" (singular) or "strade statali" (plural).

Thanks
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: Spinoza on April 09, 2021, 04:01:09 am
More roads have been transferred to ANAS in April 2021. It's almost 3000 km in 4 regions (Emilia-Romagna, Lombardia, Piemonte, Toscana).

Here's the full list, along with those already transferred in 2018 in 11 more regions:

https://www.stradeanas.it/it/le-strade/rientro-strade
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: michih on April 09, 2021, 01:18:46 pm
Is it the last transfer or do they plan another one?
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: Spinoza on April 12, 2021, 06:28:11 am
Is it the last transfer or do they plan another one?

ANAS website doesn't explicitly say, but there are reasons to believe this will be the last one.

For instance, 15 out of 20 regions (11 + 4) have been addressed. The remaining 5 regions are the so-called "special status" ones (Aosta valley, Sicily, Sardinia, Friuli-Venezia Giulia and Trentino-Alto Adige) which have different rules in their relation with the central State. For instance, the 2001 law that devolved those ANAS roads to the regions did not involve special status regions in the first place.

EDIT: Actually, my previous statement is false.
Roads in Tuscany have been transferred back to ANAS in both occasions, so the regions addressed are 14. Veneto is the only "normal status" one that wasn't addressed.

So apparently regions can be managed in rounds, meaning that there is no way to know if there will be more instances also for regions already addressed.
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: michih on April 12, 2021, 12:50:37 pm
So apparently regions can be managed in rounds, meaning that there is no way to know if there will be more instances also for regions already addressed.

Ok, more to come. Your first report is from May 2018. When can we expect the last one? I think no one knows...

If I got you right, they do it region by region. For the regions we already have a transfer report, we don't expect another one?
If that's right, we might go ahead and address the changes to those regions. We could even activate the system and add the other routes later on when the transfer will be implemented (2022, 2023, 2030,...).
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: michih on April 12, 2021, 12:51:51 pm
As for ANAS website, it appears it is not updated yet  :pan:

Is it updated now?

If not, do the pdfs per region indicate the routes which were transferred? https://www.stradeanas.it/it/le-strade/rientro-strade

Sorry if it's BS, I just saw a post on another forum with this link.... ;)

Yes, all regions I posted here are updated: Tuscany, Liguria, Molise, Basilicata, Umbria, Calabria, and also Abruzzo, Campania, Latium.
Marche and Puglia are updated but the new roads do not show in the map, only in the dropdown menu.

I contacted ANAS to let them know of the outdated maps.
They answered that they have programmed the maps update - but alas they didn't give me any time frame.

Are the maps updated now?
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: michih on April 12, 2021, 12:58:26 pm
A system of unnumbered routes? Another tier 4 or tier 5?
They are Strada Statale, just not having SS numbers yet (or detrunked yet if heading the other direction), so they are going in itass just as all the green-hexagon roads are in itaa, even if they aren't Axx.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strade_statali_in_Italia

Quote
NSA (nuova strada ANAS), strade in attesa di classificazione
Google translated:
Quote
NSA (new road ANAS), roads waiting for classification

Sounds similar to future US interstates but there are also "ex" NSA routes. Former SS routes are "future" SS routes now....  ;D

I guess it will be a tier 5 system?

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuova_strada_ANAS

Are those Nuova strade ANAS routes the routes which have been transfered to ANAS and should be part of itass system now?
Or do those routes still exist in parallel?

Or let's ask this way: What's the potential next logical system below itass?
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: the_spui_ninja on April 13, 2021, 02:08:49 am
Or let's ask this way: What's the potential next logical system below itass?
From what I remember from the three months I spent in Italy, there's the Strada Statale (~US highways), Strada Regionale (~state highways), and Strada Provinciale (~county highways) (the American equivalents are just me spitballing, not sure if they're accurate). The shields look the same (with SR and SP instead of SS). Now, finding somewhere that lists the Strada Regionale... that doesn't sound fun.
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: Spinoza on April 13, 2021, 05:12:53 am
So apparently regions can be managed in rounds, meaning that there is no way to know if there will be more instances also for regions already addressed.

Ok, more to come. Your first report is from May 2018. When can we expect the last one? I think no one knows...


Unfortunately, you're correct. It is incredibly hard to extract information from ANAS. Most of the times even data from new openings are vague at best.

Quote
If I got you right, they do it region by region. For the regions we already have a transfer report, we don't expect another one?

The most likely answer is "it depends". For instance, I would expect Lombardy to have a second round later on: most of the roads transferred belong to provinces of Pavia, Bergamo, Lecco but very few from Brescia or Sondrio.
I was very suprised that roads like SP BS 236 and 237 weren't mentioned, for instance. Also, it makes little sense that SP469 on the western shore of Lake Iseo was transferred and SP BS 510, on the eastern shore, wasn't, given that the latter is much more important than the former.

Quote
If that's right, we might go ahead and address the changes to those regions. We could even activate the system and add the other routes later on when the transfer will be implemented (2022, 2023, 2030,...).

It may make more sense, yes.
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: Spinoza on April 13, 2021, 05:14:28 am
As for ANAS website, it appears it is not updated yet  :pan:

Is it updated now?

If not, do the pdfs per region indicate the routes which were transferred? https://www.stradeanas.it/it/le-strade/rientro-strade

Sorry if it's BS, I just saw a post on another forum with this link.... ;)

Yes, all regions I posted here are updated: Tuscany, Liguria, Molise, Basilicata, Umbria, Calabria, and also Abruzzo, Campania, Latium.
Marche and Puglia are updated but the new roads do not show in the map, only in the dropdown menu.

I contacted ANAS to let them know of the outdated maps.
They answered that they have programmed the maps update - but alas they didn't give me any time frame.

Are the maps updated now?

No, they aren't. It would have been a perfect job for those long smart working days...
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: Spinoza on April 13, 2021, 05:20:37 am
A system of unnumbered routes? Another tier 4 or tier 5?
They are Strada Statale, just not having SS numbers yet (or detrunked yet if heading the other direction), so they are going in itass just as all the green-hexagon roads are in itaa, even if they aren't Axx.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strade_statali_in_Italia

Quote
NSA (nuova strada ANAS), strade in attesa di classificazione
Google translated:
Quote
NSA (new road ANAS), roads waiting for classification

Sounds similar to future US interstates but there are also "ex" NSA routes. Former SS routes are "future" SS routes now....  ;D

I guess it will be a tier 5 system?

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuova_strada_ANAS

Are those Nuova strade ANAS routes the routes which have been transfered to ANAS and should be part of itass system now?
Or do those routes still exist in parallel?


NSA are usually new routes, not yet classified as SS, that get this ANAS internal denomination. Once the ministry agrees on a SS code, NSA number is scrapped.
Usually roads which are transferred back to ANAS do not go through this NSA classification.
As a matter of tier, they lie on the same one as SS, though.

Quote
Or let's ask this way: What's the potential next logical system below itass?

I think it should be SR (Strada Regionale). Technically, only 8 regions out of 20 contemplate SR, even though some of them actually have none (Piedmont, for instance, contemplate SR roads even though all SR have been transferred to provinces as SP).
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: Spinoza on April 13, 2021, 05:48:38 am
Or let's ask this way: What's the potential next logical system below itass?
From what I remember from the three months I spent in Italy, there's the Strada Statale (~US highways), Strada Regionale (~state highways), and Strada Provinciale (~county highways) (the American equivalents are just me spitballing, not sure if they're accurate). The shields look the same (with SR and SP instead of SS). Now, finding somewhere that lists the Strada Regionale... that doesn't sound fun.

That is correct.

A bit of backstory about this "transfer-back" operation.

In 2001, the right wing government decided for a so-called "devolution" of some central powers (pushed by northern separatists of Lega). For instance, the National Healthcare System was re-arranged into regional subsystems (now under heavy criticism, given the very different approaches to the pandemic and to the vaccine campaign - but that's another story).
Many SS roads were then devolved to regions, which in turn devolved the vast majority of them to the provinces.

In 2014, however, with the pretext of spending review due to the financial crisis, the left wing government basically set provinces' budget to zero. Nominally they still have competencies (over schools, for instance, and of course provincial roads), but no money to finance manintenance, let alone new construction.

Since then, provincial roads fell into a state of profound decay and many denounced this lack of maintenance. ANAS was forced, then, to take some of these roads under its - much larger - budget in order to plan and finance renovations.
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: michih on April 13, 2021, 12:40:35 pm
Are those Nuova strade ANAS routes the routes which have been transfered to ANAS and should be part of itass system now?
Or do those routes still exist in parallel?

NSA are usually new routes, not yet classified as SS, that get this ANAS internal denomination. Once the ministry agrees on a SS code, NSA number is scrapped.
Usually roads which are transferred back to ANAS do not go through this NSA classification.
As a matter of tier, they lie on the same one as SS, though.

You mean, itass and itanss should both be tier 4 systems?

Nuova SS seem to be like future Interstates and usai (United States Interstate Highways) are tier 1, usaib (United States Business Interstate Highways) are tier 2 and usaif (United States Future Interstate Highways) are tier 3.

That would mean, itass = tier 4 and itanss = tier 5.

Or let's ask this way: What's the potential next logical system below itass?

I think it should be SR (Strada Regionale). Technically, only 8 regions out of 20 contemplate SR, even though some of them actually have none (Piedmont, for instance, contemplate SR roads even though all SR have been transferred to provinces as SP).

If itanss would be tier 5, itasr could also be tier 5. Why not.

Are SR routes unique all over Italy or does every region have it's own SR numbering? If the latter, we might think about splitting Italy into regions like we did for France, Germany, Spain and UK. Italy is the last "big" undivided European country on TM :D
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: michih on April 13, 2021, 12:43:34 pm
If that's right, we might go ahead and address the changes to those regions. We could even activate the system and add the other routes later on when the transfer will be implemented (2022, 2023, 2030,...).
It may make more sense, yes.

yep, better adding the transferred routes and activating itass medium-term and adding newly transferred routes later than waiting ages for anything which might never happen.
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: Spinoza on April 13, 2021, 01:12:55 pm
Are those Nuova strade ANAS routes the routes which have been transfered to ANAS and should be part of itass system now?
Or do those routes still exist in parallel?

NSA are usually new routes, not yet classified as SS, that get this ANAS internal denomination. Once the ministry agrees on a SS code, NSA number is scrapped.
Usually roads which are transferred back to ANAS do not go through this NSA classification.
As a matter of tier, they lie on the same one as SS, though.

You mean, itass and itanss should both be tier 4 systems?

Nuova SS seem to be like future Interstates and usai (United States Interstate Highways) are tier 1, usaib (United States Business Interstate Highways) are tier 2 and usaif (United States Future Interstate Highways) are tier 3.
That would mean, itass = tier 4 and itanss = tier 5.


Never fully understood the concept of "future Interstate". If it is a substandard road designated to become an Interstate, pending upgrade and renovation, then it's not the same thing as SS and NSA. NSA is immediately built up to its standard (which may or may not be superstrada): it just lacks the administrative act that assigns a number to it.
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Or let's ask this way: What's the potential next logical system below itass?

I think it should be SR (Strada Regionale). Technically, only 8 regions out of 20 contemplate SR, even though some of them actually have none (Piedmont, for instance, contemplate SR roads even though all SR have been transferred to provinces as SP).

If itanss would be tier 5, itasr could also be tier 5. Why not.
Dunno. In my head, SS and NSA are the same thing, so they belong to the same tier. But that's just me.

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Are SR routes unique all over Italy or does every region have it's own SR numbering? If the latter, we might think about splitting Italy into regions like we did for France, Germany, Spain and UK. Italy is the last "big" undivided European country on TM :D

It is indeed the latter. Each region uses its own numbering (as each province does with SP), with different criteria.
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: the_spui_ninja on April 14, 2021, 03:52:52 pm
Or let's ask this way: What's the potential next logical system below itass?

I think it should be SR (Strada Regionale). Technically, only 8 regions out of 20 contemplate SR, even though some of them actually have none (Piedmont, for instance, contemplate SR roads even though all SR have been transferred to provinces as SP).

If itanss would be tier 5, itasr could also be tier 5. Why not.
Dunno. In my head, SS and NSA are the same thing, so they belong to the same tier. But that's just me.

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Are SR routes unique all over Italy or does every region have it's own SR numbering? If the latter, we might think about splitting Italy into regions like we did for France, Germany, Spain and UK. Italy is the last "big" undivided European country on TM :D

It is indeed the latter. Each region uses its own numbering (as each province does with SP), with different criteria.
[/quote]
I agree with keeping the SS and NSA in the same tier, since they're essentially the same with minor administrative differences. Additionally, I think that adding the SR (in future) is probably a good idea, but adding the SP might be a bit too complicated.
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: michih on April 15, 2021, 12:39:04 pm
Or let's ask this way: What's the potential next logical system below itass?

I think it should be SR (Strada Regionale). Technically, only 8 regions out of 20 contemplate SR, even though some of them actually have none (Piedmont, for instance, contemplate SR roads even though all SR have been transferred to provinces as SP).

If itanss would be tier 5, itasr could also be tier 5. Why not.
Dunno. In my head, SS and NSA are the same thing, so they belong to the same tier. But that's just me.

I'm also in favor of having SS and NSA in tier 4, and SR tier 5.

However, the maintainer of Italy is (or was) in favor of having NSA as tier 5.
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: si404 on April 15, 2021, 01:39:34 pm
However, the maintainer of Italy is (or was) in favor of having NSA as tier 5.
Was I? I concur tier 4.
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: michih on April 15, 2021, 02:33:01 pm
However, the maintainer of Italy is (or was) in favor of having NSA as tier 5.
Was I? I concur tier 4.

No, sorry :D  :pan:

You even wrote that there should be one system only:

A system of unnumbered routes? Another tier 4 or tier 5?
They are Strada Statale, just not having SS numbers yet (or detrunked yet if heading the other direction), so they are going in itass just as all the green-hexagon roads are in itaa, even if they aren't Axx.
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: michih on April 15, 2021, 02:42:12 pm
Are SR routes unique all over Italy or does every region have it's own SR numbering? If the latter, we might think about splitting Italy into regions like we did for France, Germany, Spain and UK. Italy is the last "big" undivided European country on TM :D

It is indeed the latter. Each region uses its own numbering (as each province does with SP), with different criteria.

@Si404, what do you generally think about a split into regions for future SR systems?

If we would agree on splitting, would we do it before or after the rework and/or activation of itass? I mean, we could also activate itass by regions.... smaller iterations, starting with regions where the transfer back to ANAS already happened etc.
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: si404 on April 15, 2021, 02:52:54 pm
@Si404, what do you generally think about a split into regions for future SR systems?

If we would agree on splitting, would we do it before or after the rework and/or activation of itass? I mean, we could also activate itass by regions.... smaller iterations, starting with regions where the transfer back to ANAS already happened etc.
If there's going to do a split, the rework and review of itass is the time to do it.
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: panda80 on April 24, 2021, 04:22:53 pm
After speaking with michih, I decided to do the rework (check the existing routes and add the new ones). Just that it will take some time, as I had in the last time little time for TM and the situation doesn't seem to dramatically improve in the next months. But I hope I can do it in a time horizon of about 1 year.
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: michih on April 25, 2021, 01:39:51 am
After speaking with michih, I decided to do the rework (check the existing routes and add the new ones). Just that it will take some time, as I had in the last time little time for TM and the situation doesn't seem to dramatically improve in the next months. But I hope I can do it in a time horizon of about 1 year.

Thanks! I think that the rework includes a detailed review - four yearss after creation of the system - and another peer-review is not required.

I changed the European tier 4 overview (https://forum.travelmapping.net/index.php?topic=131.msg619#msg619):

itass - Italy Strada Statale (si404) reviewer: michih (many routes were transferred back to ANAS; system must be reworked)
-->
itass - Italy Strada Statale (panda80) reviewer: rework = review (many routes were transferred back to ANAS; system is being reworked)

Fine to all?
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: Spinoza on April 26, 2021, 07:27:20 am
Thank you all for your work.

@panda80, don't hesitate to contact me for anything, if I can help.
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: panda80 on May 04, 2021, 09:17:05 am
Started with the introduction of new routes, yesterday was Abruzzo, today Basilicata (will come with the next update).
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: Spinoza on May 05, 2021, 05:08:10 am
Started with the introduction of new routes, yesterday was Abruzzo, today Basilicata (will come with the next update).

 8)

Great! Looking forward to it.
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: michih on May 20, 2021, 12:44:00 pm
System will be temporarily removed due to some data errors (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/4789#issuecomment-845272835) with the latest rework.

I think that new routes of the following regions have been added so far:
- Abruzzo
- Basilicata
- Lazio
- Umbria
- Toscana
Title: Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
Post by: panda80 on May 26, 2021, 04:34:13 am
Puglia was also added today, should be in with the next site update.
Title: Re: Italy Strada Statale (itass)
Post by: Spinoza on July 16, 2021, 05:26:39 am
As for ANAS website, it appears it is not updated yet  :pan:

Is it updated now?

If not, do the pdfs per region indicate the routes which were transferred? https://www.stradeanas.it/it/le-strade/rientro-strade

Sorry if it's BS, I just saw a post on another forum with this link.... ;)

Yes, all regions I posted here are updated: Tuscany, Liguria, Molise, Basilicata, Umbria, Calabria, and also Abruzzo, Campania, Latium.
Marche and Puglia are updated but the new roads do not show in the map, only in the dropdown menu.

I contacted ANAS to let them know of the outdated maps.
They answered that they have programmed the maps update - but alas they didn't give me any time frame.

I would like to report that ANAS has finally updated the maps in their website.
I didn't thoroughly check all the roads but it seems they're mostly there.

EDIT:
It seems that *almost* all the regions had their maps updated, with the notable exception of Lombardy...