Author Topic: itass: Italy Strada Statale  (Read 32843 times)

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Offline Spinoza

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Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
« Reply #90 on: April 13, 2021, 05:12:53 am »
So apparently regions can be managed in rounds, meaning that there is no way to know if there will be more instances also for regions already addressed.

Ok, more to come. Your first report is from May 2018. When can we expect the last one? I think no one knows...


Unfortunately, you're correct. It is incredibly hard to extract information from ANAS. Most of the times even data from new openings are vague at best.

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If I got you right, they do it region by region. For the regions we already have a transfer report, we don't expect another one?

The most likely answer is "it depends". For instance, I would expect Lombardy to have a second round later on: most of the roads transferred belong to provinces of Pavia, Bergamo, Lecco but very few from Brescia or Sondrio.
I was very suprised that roads like SP BS 236 and 237 weren't mentioned, for instance. Also, it makes little sense that SP469 on the western shore of Lake Iseo was transferred and SP BS 510, on the eastern shore, wasn't, given that the latter is much more important than the former.

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If that's right, we might go ahead and address the changes to those regions. We could even activate the system and add the other routes later on when the transfer will be implemented (2022, 2023, 2030,...).

It may make more sense, yes.

Offline Spinoza

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Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
« Reply #91 on: April 13, 2021, 05:14:28 am »
As for ANAS website, it appears it is not updated yet  :pan:

Is it updated now?

If not, do the pdfs per region indicate the routes which were transferred? https://www.stradeanas.it/it/le-strade/rientro-strade

Sorry if it's BS, I just saw a post on another forum with this link.... ;)

Yes, all regions I posted here are updated: Tuscany, Liguria, Molise, Basilicata, Umbria, Calabria, and also Abruzzo, Campania, Latium.
Marche and Puglia are updated but the new roads do not show in the map, only in the dropdown menu.

I contacted ANAS to let them know of the outdated maps.
They answered that they have programmed the maps update - but alas they didn't give me any time frame.

Are the maps updated now?

No, they aren't. It would have been a perfect job for those long smart working days...

Offline Spinoza

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Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
« Reply #92 on: April 13, 2021, 05:20:37 am »
A system of unnumbered routes? Another tier 4 or tier 5?
They are Strada Statale, just not having SS numbers yet (or detrunked yet if heading the other direction), so they are going in itass just as all the green-hexagon roads are in itaa, even if they aren't Axx.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strade_statali_in_Italia

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NSA (nuova strada ANAS), strade in attesa di classificazione
Google translated:
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NSA (new road ANAS), roads waiting for classification

Sounds similar to future US interstates but there are also "ex" NSA routes. Former SS routes are "future" SS routes now....  ;D

I guess it will be a tier 5 system?

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuova_strada_ANAS

Are those Nuova strade ANAS routes the routes which have been transfered to ANAS and should be part of itass system now?
Or do those routes still exist in parallel?


NSA are usually new routes, not yet classified as SS, that get this ANAS internal denomination. Once the ministry agrees on a SS code, NSA number is scrapped.
Usually roads which are transferred back to ANAS do not go through this NSA classification.
As a matter of tier, they lie on the same one as SS, though.

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Or let's ask this way: What's the potential next logical system below itass?

I think it should be SR (Strada Regionale). Technically, only 8 regions out of 20 contemplate SR, even though some of them actually have none (Piedmont, for instance, contemplate SR roads even though all SR have been transferred to provinces as SP).

Offline Spinoza

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Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
« Reply #93 on: April 13, 2021, 05:48:38 am »
Or let's ask this way: What's the potential next logical system below itass?
From what I remember from the three months I spent in Italy, there's the Strada Statale (~US highways), Strada Regionale (~state highways), and Strada Provinciale (~county highways) (the American equivalents are just me spitballing, not sure if they're accurate). The shields look the same (with SR and SP instead of SS). Now, finding somewhere that lists the Strada Regionale... that doesn't sound fun.

That is correct.

A bit of backstory about this "transfer-back" operation.

In 2001, the right wing government decided for a so-called "devolution" of some central powers (pushed by northern separatists of Lega). For instance, the National Healthcare System was re-arranged into regional subsystems (now under heavy criticism, given the very different approaches to the pandemic and to the vaccine campaign - but that's another story).
Many SS roads were then devolved to regions, which in turn devolved the vast majority of them to the provinces.

In 2014, however, with the pretext of spending review due to the financial crisis, the left wing government basically set provinces' budget to zero. Nominally they still have competencies (over schools, for instance, and of course provincial roads), but no money to finance manintenance, let alone new construction.

Since then, provincial roads fell into a state of profound decay and many denounced this lack of maintenance. ANAS was forced, then, to take some of these roads under its - much larger - budget in order to plan and finance renovations.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 10:19:02 am by Spinoza »

Offline michih

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Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
« Reply #94 on: April 13, 2021, 12:40:35 pm »
Are those Nuova strade ANAS routes the routes which have been transfered to ANAS and should be part of itass system now?
Or do those routes still exist in parallel?

NSA are usually new routes, not yet classified as SS, that get this ANAS internal denomination. Once the ministry agrees on a SS code, NSA number is scrapped.
Usually roads which are transferred back to ANAS do not go through this NSA classification.
As a matter of tier, they lie on the same one as SS, though.

You mean, itass and itanss should both be tier 4 systems?

Nuova SS seem to be like future Interstates and usai (United States Interstate Highways) are tier 1, usaib (United States Business Interstate Highways) are tier 2 and usaif (United States Future Interstate Highways) are tier 3.

That would mean, itass = tier 4 and itanss = tier 5.

Or let's ask this way: What's the potential next logical system below itass?

I think it should be SR (Strada Regionale). Technically, only 8 regions out of 20 contemplate SR, even though some of them actually have none (Piedmont, for instance, contemplate SR roads even though all SR have been transferred to provinces as SP).

If itanss would be tier 5, itasr could also be tier 5. Why not.

Are SR routes unique all over Italy or does every region have it's own SR numbering? If the latter, we might think about splitting Italy into regions like we did for France, Germany, Spain and UK. Italy is the last "big" undivided European country on TM :D
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 12:45:31 pm by michih »

Offline michih

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Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
« Reply #95 on: April 13, 2021, 12:43:34 pm »
If that's right, we might go ahead and address the changes to those regions. We could even activate the system and add the other routes later on when the transfer will be implemented (2022, 2023, 2030,...).
It may make more sense, yes.

yep, better adding the transferred routes and activating itass medium-term and adding newly transferred routes later than waiting ages for anything which might never happen.

Offline Spinoza

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Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
« Reply #96 on: April 13, 2021, 01:12:55 pm »
Are those Nuova strade ANAS routes the routes which have been transfered to ANAS and should be part of itass system now?
Or do those routes still exist in parallel?

NSA are usually new routes, not yet classified as SS, that get this ANAS internal denomination. Once the ministry agrees on a SS code, NSA number is scrapped.
Usually roads which are transferred back to ANAS do not go through this NSA classification.
As a matter of tier, they lie on the same one as SS, though.

You mean, itass and itanss should both be tier 4 systems?

Nuova SS seem to be like future Interstates and usai (United States Interstate Highways) are tier 1, usaib (United States Business Interstate Highways) are tier 2 and usaif (United States Future Interstate Highways) are tier 3.
That would mean, itass = tier 4 and itanss = tier 5.


Never fully understood the concept of "future Interstate". If it is a substandard road designated to become an Interstate, pending upgrade and renovation, then it's not the same thing as SS and NSA. NSA is immediately built up to its standard (which may or may not be superstrada): it just lacks the administrative act that assigns a number to it.
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Or let's ask this way: What's the potential next logical system below itass?

I think it should be SR (Strada Regionale). Technically, only 8 regions out of 20 contemplate SR, even though some of them actually have none (Piedmont, for instance, contemplate SR roads even though all SR have been transferred to provinces as SP).

If itanss would be tier 5, itasr could also be tier 5. Why not.
Dunno. In my head, SS and NSA are the same thing, so they belong to the same tier. But that's just me.

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Are SR routes unique all over Italy or does every region have it's own SR numbering? If the latter, we might think about splitting Italy into regions like we did for France, Germany, Spain and UK. Italy is the last "big" undivided European country on TM :D

It is indeed the latter. Each region uses its own numbering (as each province does with SP), with different criteria.

Offline the_spui_ninja

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Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
« Reply #97 on: April 14, 2021, 03:52:52 pm »
Or let's ask this way: What's the potential next logical system below itass?

I think it should be SR (Strada Regionale). Technically, only 8 regions out of 20 contemplate SR, even though some of them actually have none (Piedmont, for instance, contemplate SR roads even though all SR have been transferred to provinces as SP).

If itanss would be tier 5, itasr could also be tier 5. Why not.
Dunno. In my head, SS and NSA are the same thing, so they belong to the same tier. But that's just me.

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Are SR routes unique all over Italy or does every region have it's own SR numbering? If the latter, we might think about splitting Italy into regions like we did for France, Germany, Spain and UK. Italy is the last "big" undivided European country on TM :D

It is indeed the latter. Each region uses its own numbering (as each province does with SP), with different criteria.
[/quote]
I agree with keeping the SS and NSA in the same tier, since they're essentially the same with minor administrative differences. Additionally, I think that adding the SR (in future) is probably a good idea, but adding the SP might be a bit too complicated.
An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered. - G.K. Chesterton

Offline michih

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Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
« Reply #98 on: April 15, 2021, 12:39:04 pm »
Or let's ask this way: What's the potential next logical system below itass?

I think it should be SR (Strada Regionale). Technically, only 8 regions out of 20 contemplate SR, even though some of them actually have none (Piedmont, for instance, contemplate SR roads even though all SR have been transferred to provinces as SP).

If itanss would be tier 5, itasr could also be tier 5. Why not.
Dunno. In my head, SS and NSA are the same thing, so they belong to the same tier. But that's just me.

I'm also in favor of having SS and NSA in tier 4, and SR tier 5.

However, the maintainer of Italy is (or was) in favor of having NSA as tier 5.

Offline si404

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Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
« Reply #99 on: April 15, 2021, 01:39:34 pm »
However, the maintainer of Italy is (or was) in favor of having NSA as tier 5.
Was I? I concur tier 4.

Offline michih

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Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
« Reply #100 on: April 15, 2021, 02:33:01 pm »
However, the maintainer of Italy is (or was) in favor of having NSA as tier 5.
Was I? I concur tier 4.

No, sorry :D  :pan:

You even wrote that there should be one system only:

A system of unnumbered routes? Another tier 4 or tier 5?
They are Strada Statale, just not having SS numbers yet (or detrunked yet if heading the other direction), so they are going in itass just as all the green-hexagon roads are in itaa, even if they aren't Axx.

Offline michih

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Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
« Reply #101 on: April 15, 2021, 02:42:12 pm »
Are SR routes unique all over Italy or does every region have it's own SR numbering? If the latter, we might think about splitting Italy into regions like we did for France, Germany, Spain and UK. Italy is the last "big" undivided European country on TM :D

It is indeed the latter. Each region uses its own numbering (as each province does with SP), with different criteria.

@Si404, what do you generally think about a split into regions for future SR systems?

If we would agree on splitting, would we do it before or after the rework and/or activation of itass? I mean, we could also activate itass by regions.... smaller iterations, starting with regions where the transfer back to ANAS already happened etc.

Offline si404

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Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
« Reply #102 on: April 15, 2021, 02:52:54 pm »
@Si404, what do you generally think about a split into regions for future SR systems?

If we would agree on splitting, would we do it before or after the rework and/or activation of itass? I mean, we could also activate itass by regions.... smaller iterations, starting with regions where the transfer back to ANAS already happened etc.
If there's going to do a split, the rework and review of itass is the time to do it.

Offline panda80

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Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
« Reply #103 on: April 24, 2021, 04:22:53 pm »
After speaking with michih, I decided to do the rework (check the existing routes and add the new ones). Just that it will take some time, as I had in the last time little time for TM and the situation doesn't seem to dramatically improve in the next months. But I hope I can do it in a time horizon of about 1 year.

Offline michih

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Re: itass: Italy Strada Statale
« Reply #104 on: April 25, 2021, 01:39:51 am »
After speaking with michih, I decided to do the rework (check the existing routes and add the new ones). Just that it will take some time, as I had in the last time little time for TM and the situation doesn't seem to dramatically improve in the next months. But I hope I can do it in a time horizon of about 1 year.

Thanks! I think that the rework includes a detailed review - four yearss after creation of the system - and another peer-review is not required.

I changed the European tier 4 overview:

itass - Italy Strada Statale (si404) reviewer: michih (many routes were transferred back to ANAS; system must be reworked)
-->
itass - Italy Strada Statale (panda80) reviewer: rework = review (many routes were transferred back to ANAS; system is being reworked)

Fine to all?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 10:12:55 am by michih »