Travel Mapping

Highway Data Discussion => Updates to Highway Data => Topic started by: michih on January 23, 2023, 01:15:20 pm

Title: FRA: Massive downgrade of autoroutes & routes nationale
Post by: michih on January 23, 2023, 01:15:20 pm
https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/490597/post-182134311  :pan:

Quote
There is a massive transfer of roads from the autoroute & route nationale network to the departments, regions and metropolitan regions.
I assume a large-scale renumbering will also take place.

Here's the entire list: https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/JORFTEXT000046949953

Apparently it was planned to transfer basically the entire route nationale network plus all non-tolled autoroutes to lower governments (some 10,300 kilometers of roads), but most departments, regions and metropolitan regions did not agree to that, so in the end ~3,000 kilometers were transferred, mostly in the east and south of France.

[...]

This map by G.E. at Forum SARA shows the roads listed in the law text.
  • Magenta = transferred to the region
  • Yellow = transferred to the departments
  • Cyan = transferred to the metropolitan region
  • Black = remaining national road network in areas where the rest is transferred

(https://i.ibb.co/DpwXxnf/Transfert-avec-petits-bouts.png)

Transfer date(s) still unknown. I assume (https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/490597/post-182138518) (and Chris too (https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/490597/post-182139196)) that it will happen anytime in 2023.
New road numbers are unknown.
Title: Re: FRA: Massive downgrade of autoroutes & routes nationale
Post by: si404 on January 28, 2023, 06:03:01 am
From the order (and yes that means oddities left behind)

Title: Re: FRA: Massive downgrade of autoroutes & routes nationale
Post by: michih on January 28, 2023, 06:08:50 am
Thanks, the list will help tracking the transfer :)

Did you mainly rely on the map or on the legislative text?
Title: Re: FRA: Massive downgrade of autoroutes & routes nationale
Post by: si404 on January 28, 2023, 08:01:43 am
Quote from: michih on January 28, 2023, 06:08:50 am
Did you mainly rely on the map or on the legislative text?
Legislative text. If the map, then I'd put stuff like the N333 in (though it might have become N4, finally, just before they prat about with it)

Some (eg the N7 alongside the A89, or the autoroutes that are just ramps within an interchange) are already not part of fraa or fran.

The SARA forum (http://forum.sara-infras.fr/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=94577&start=260) has something resembling dates on it.

(https://www.cfdt-ufetam.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/3ds_calendrier.png)

via Google's tools, a translation:
4 January 2023 - Ministerial decision determining the list of motorways, roads and portions of tracks that are transferred or made available

Departments / Metropoles
Early May 2023 - Publication of prefectural decrees noting the transfer of roads and highways
During 2023 - Identification of the parts of services to be transferred in order to establish the service projects
January 2024 - Transfer of competence to departments and metropolises
Early 2024 - Transmission of agreements for the individual provision of agents
During 2024 - Publication of the Conseil d'Etat decree determining the transfer of services and beginning of the exercise of the right of option

Regions
Early September 2023 - Signing of availability agreements
1 January 2024 - Effective date of availability on the date provided for in the agreement
Title: Re: FRA: Massive downgrade of autoroutes & routes nationale
Post by: michih on January 28, 2023, 09:51:18 am
Thanks! If I get it right, it's still possible that some roads might not be downgraded? I also think that nothing will happen in the field in 2023.

I'll ask on SSC....
Title: Re: FRA: Massive downgrade of autoroutes & routes nationale
Post by: dave1693 on January 28, 2023, 10:34:58 am
At first glance (and through my spotty French) this all seems to imply that we're getting a new class of regional Rnn highways, or something similar, when all this is done. Am I way off base here?
Title: Re: FRA: Massive downgrade of autoroutes & routes nationale
Post by: michih on January 28, 2023, 10:42:20 am
I'm also curious about the regional routes. I asked the same on SSC (https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/490597/post-182138192). I think if anyone knows, the info should be on wikisara forum. I don't speak French at all and don't try to catch the info there ;)
Title: Re: FRA: Massive downgrade of autoroutes & routes nationale
Post by: si404 on January 28, 2023, 11:05:44 am
Quote from: michih on January 28, 2023, 09:51:18 am
Thanks! If I get it right, it's still possible that some roads might not be downgraded?
They've actively chosen the word "transferred" rather than downgraded.

I've seen something saying that Autoroute status, and European importance (I presume both E roads and TEN-T, as they would both require effort for the French State to change above and beyond just the process to hand over roads they don't want), wouldn't be removed. Though that's not to say that certain autoroutes wouldn't be downgraded (short spurs and the like).

And there seems to be an implication on the SARA forum that (like many Outre-Mer N roads) that the National routes wouldn't require reclassifying from 'N' to 'R' when transferred to a Region (explictly a region/region-level body, rather than departmental/metropolitan). Corsica renumbered theirs as T, but didn't have to (and hasn't done a great job changing cartouches) - that was a political choice.

There's also legislation restricting the ability of a region to reduce the standards on certain non-Autoroute roads as they form a defacto part of the Autoroute network - but I don't think many of those routes have been transferred from State to Departments/Region/Metropole (one hasn't even been transferred from Department to the State as originally planned).
Title: Re: FRA: Massive downgrade of autoroutes & routes nationale
Post by: michih on May 01, 2023, 11:59:35 am
Quote from: si404 on January 28, 2023, 08:01:43 am
The SARA forum (http://forum.sara-infras.fr/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=94577&start=260) has something resembling dates on it.

There is no update on the SARA thread since January. I'm just back from Dijon where A38 and N274 should be transferred. There are still the old signs in the field. N19 and N57 in Haute-Saône are also still signed.
Being in France, I took the opportunity to reclinched fraa system by traveling the new A79 segment north of Montmarault.
Title: Re: FRA: Massive downgrade of autoroutes & routes nationale
Post by: si404 on May 01, 2023, 03:51:31 pm
Quote from: michih on May 01, 2023, 11:59:35 am
There is no update on the SARA thread since January. I'm just back from Dijon where A38 and N274 should be transferred.
It's literally the first of May, and a public holiday - note the timeline I provided above. We weren't due to get lists of roads to be transferred until tomorrow at the earliest, and they don't transfer until next year...

Not withstanding that the existing regional routes in France (save in Corisca where they politically wanted to say they are a territory owned by France, not part of the French nation) are signed with N (and in one case A) status, and that the expectation is that the autoroutes in Marseilles will remain such despite being handed over to PACA.
Title: Re: FRA: Massive downgrade of autoroutes & routes nationale
Post by: michih on May 02, 2023, 12:37:09 pm
Fine. I was just looking for a good reason to write that I reclinched the Autoroute system :D
Title: Re: FRA: Massive downgrade of autoroutes & routes nationale
Post by: michih on December 19, 2023, 02:24:54 pm
A38 in BFC seems to be the first autoroute being transferred on 2024-01-01: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/490597/post-186594684
Future numbering is still unknown.
Title: Re: FRA: Massive downgrade of autoroutes & routes nationale
Post by: michih on January 18, 2024, 12:47:40 pm
Quote from: si404 on January 28, 2023, 06:03:01 am
  • Seine-et-Marne (IDF 77):
    • N4
    • N36
Downgraded to D1004 and D1036 since 2024-01-01: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/490597/post-186952929

Edit: https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/7169
Title: Re: FRA: Massive downgrade of autoroutes & routes nationale
Post by: michih on September 14, 2024, 12:37:02 pm
Quote from: si404 on January 28, 2023, 06:03:01 am
  • Haute-Marne (GES 52):
    • N67

Downgraded to D520-52 since (anytime in ) 2024 (https://routes.fandom.com/wiki/Route_nationale_fran%C3%A7aise_67). I traveled the northernmost segments today, it's actually throughout signed as D520.
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/7716
Title: Re: FRA: Massive downgrade of autoroutes & routes nationale
Post by: michih on September 16, 2024, 03:33:26 pm
Quote from: si404 on January 28, 2023, 06:03:01 am
  • Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes (ARA):
    • N102
The segment through Le-Puy-en-Valey was downgraded to D902 in 2021. D906 (https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=fraara.d090643&lat=45.111604&lon=3.746134&zoom=16) was upgraded to N102. See 2024 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/oLmTTvotjeBF8nD57) GSV (https://maps.app.goo.gl/wKwbD2fh95nbJQkv5). N102 should have been transferred to the region from 2024-01-01 but is announced to be transferred on 2025-01-01 now.

https://routes.fandom.com/wiki/Route_nationale_fran%C3%A7aise_102
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_nationale_102_(France_m%C3%A9tropolitaine)
Title: Re: FRA: Massive downgrade of autoroutes & routes nationale
Post by: michih on October 28, 2024, 02:11:26 pm
Quote from: michih on September 16, 2024, 03:33:26 pm
Quote from: si404 on January 28, 2023, 06:03:01 am
  • Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes (ARA):
    • N102
The segment through Le-Puy-en-Valey was downgraded to D902 in 2021. D906 (https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=fraara.d090643&lat=45.111604&lon=3.746134&zoom=16) was upgraded to N102. See 2024 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/oLmTTvotjeBF8nD57) GSV (https://maps.app.goo.gl/wKwbD2fh95nbJQkv5). N102 should have been transferred to the region from 2024-01-01 but is announced to be transferred on 2025-01-01 now.

https://routes.fandom.com/wiki/Route_nationale_fran%C3%A7aise_102
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_nationale_102_(France_m%C3%A9tropolitaine)

Nonetheless, a new N102 section was opened today :D I've added it as "N102 Arvant" albeit I assume that it should be plain N102, and the old route (only RMA58 and me have traveled it) should be N2102 now. It is all announced to be downgraded to D routes in just two months.

https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/7858
Title: FRA-IDF N410 is gone
Post by: neroute2 on December 12, 2024, 08:21:36 pm
N410 was abandoned in 2023 (https://routes.fandom.com/wiki/Route_nationale_fran%C3%A7aise_410). This is confirmed by a 2024 photo on Mapillary (https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=48.92957079999999&lng=2.3623388000000887&z=18.830484179257738&pKey=262606880204663&focus=photo).
This also affects FRA-IDF A1 2 and labels on FRA-IDF D24-93 and FRA-IDF D941-93.
Title: Re: FRA: Massive downgrade of autoroutes & routes nationale
Post by: michih on January 21, 2025, 03:05:40 pm
Quote from: si404 on January 28, 2023, 06:03:01 am
  • Grand Est (GES):
    • A30
    • A31
    • A33
    • A313
    • N4
    • N44
    • N52 between the A30 motorway and the Belgian border
    • N431
Grand Est has reportingly taken over 525km of national roads at the beginning of 2025.

https://www.virgule.lu/granderegion/france/les-poids-lourds-devront-payer-pour-circuler-sur-l-a31-a-partir-de-2027/32491557.html
Title: Re: FRA: Occitanie transfer/downgrade
Post by: michih on February 01, 2025, 11:05:38 am
Legend:
Implemented in HB
Should be transferred but not yet confirmed on maps
Should be transferred but new numbering unknown
No info
Transfer refused / not in HB

Aveyron (OCC 12):
Haute-Garonne (OCC 31):
N124/N224/N542 in OCC-31/32 routes were still signed as N roads when I traveled them in September 2024, OSM + GM do still indicate N numbers as-of February 2025 (N542 has D numbers on OSM since July 2024).


Gers (OCC 32):
N124/N224/N542 in OCC-31/32 routes were still signed as N roads when I traveled them in September 2024, OSM + GM do still indicate N numbers as-of February 2025 (N542 has D numbers on OSM since July 2024). Same for N21 that I traveled on the northern segment only.


Lot (OCC 46):
Pyrénées-Orientales (OCC 66):
Toulouse (OCC 31M):

No info about A routes, but Toulouse rejected the transfer of all N roads. Assuming that the same happened to A routes (OTOH, they might have kept their A numbering anyway)
Occitanie (OCC):
All routes should have been transferred to OCC region in 2025 but were then refused by OCC. See all wikisara articles, e.g. https://routes.fandom.com/wiki/Autoroute_fran%C3%A7aise_A68#Pr%C3%A9sentation

Edit 2025-02-02: Legend updated
Title: Re: Pays-de-la-Loire downgrade
Post by: michih on February 01, 2025, 12:28:43 pm
Maine-et-Loire (PDL 49):
  N162

Mayenne (PDL 53):
  N162

Both downgraded in 2024 (https://routes.fandom.com/wiki/Route_nationale_fran%C3%A7aise_162). Both are numbered D962 according to OSM + GM: https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/8128
Title: Re: Île-de-France
Post by: michih on February 01, 2025, 12:52:39 pm
Île-de-France, all done now:

Quote from: neroute2 on December 12, 2024, 08:21:36 pm
N410 was abandoned in 2023 (https://routes.fandom.com/wiki/Route_nationale_fran%C3%A7aise_410). This is confirmed by a 2024 photo on Mapillary (https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=48.92957079999999&lng=2.3623388000000887&z=18.830484179257738&pKey=262606880204663&focus=photo).
This also affects FRA-IDF A1 2 and labels on FRA-IDF D24-93 and FRA-IDF D941-93.

https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/8129
Title: Re: Bourgogne-Franche-Comté transfer/downgrade
Post by: michih on February 01, 2025, 01:44:17 pm
Legend:
Implemented in HB
Should be transferred but not yet confirmed on maps
Should be transferred but new numbering unknown
No info
Transfer refused / not in HB

Côte-d'Or (BFC 21):
Haute-Saône (BFC 70):
Dijon (BFC 21M):
Edit 2025-02-02: Legend updated
Title: Re: Provence-Alpes-Cote-d’Azur transfer/downgrade
Post by: michih on February 02, 2025, 03:38:23 am
Bouches-du-Rhône (PAC 13):

The autoroutes should have been transferred in 2024. e.g. mentioned for A55 (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoroute_A55_(France)#D%C3%A9classement) but only with a reference to the legislative text from January 2023 i.e. no confirmation that it actually happened; I didn't spot any numbering change on OSM, GM nor October 2024 GSV; Anyhow, I assume that the autoroute numbering will remain as-is. To be revisited to make sure that there is really no renumbering on transfer.

No info about N routes:
Vaucluse (PAC 84):
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/8133
Title: Re: Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes transfer/downgrade
Post by: michih on February 02, 2025, 05:19:29 am
Legend:
Implemented in HB
Should be transferred but not yet confirmed on maps
Should be transferred but new numbering unknown
No info
Transfer refused / not in HB


Isère (ARA 38):
Rhône (ARA 69):
Lyon (ARA 69M):
Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes (ARA):

Document from ARA region (https://edelib.auvergnerhonealpes.fr/webdelibplus/jsp/showFile.jsp?datePub=13/11/2023&dateRetLega=13/11/2023&pdf=0cBwlciopEGtjBusVJX4%2F4jb6AOKFJ94tta2qSUXnb5%2FpmMXYOIgYTkOvlqgVv48061itaC5HWJBGjDX9eblI4kcgGvBE0QpQyWm41dSCp6xek%2BQGe%2Bw7sNn1xvb8Wn884xHdssXda1yhoQrUatge4khwqM0zAFUUwbFcj%2BiG9s8vinH9SPobAVtt8fjjJx8mJOL1fwv2%2FzX1pLO%2BoP61h4aM5CDaAq8hUmmwVwLvh8%3D) with > 1400 pages about road conditions but missing future numbering; The document indicates the transfer to be happen on 2025-01-01.

Title: Re: Grand Est transfer/downgrade
Post by: michih on February 02, 2025, 02:42:00 pm
Legend:
Implemented in HB
Should be transferred but not yet confirmed on maps
Should be transferred but new numbering unknown
No info
Transfer refused / not in HB

Haute-Marne (GES 52):
Moselle (GES 57):
Grand Est (GES):

Grand Est region has reportingly taken over 525km of national roads at the beginning of 2025. (https://forum.travelmapping.net/index.php?topic=5383.msg36811#msg36811)