Travel Mapping

Highway Data Discussion => In-progress Highway Systems & Work => Completed Highway Systems Threads => : froggie April 24, 2016, 09:45:25 AM

: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: froggie April 24, 2016, 09:45:25 AM
Starting this thread mainly to bring forth a couple issues I've noticed with this system in DC.  Given the lack of mileage showing up in the highway browser, I'm guessing this system is still in development.

First, on the Rock Creek Pkwy list, the southern endpoint should be labeled LinMemCir.  There's an extra "c" in the draft version that's in TM.

Second, and impacting 3 of the 4 lists, is that the city quadrant is very prominent in DC signage, waymaking, and usage.  Because of this, they should have been included.  This doesn't affect the GW Pkwy list, but it does affect the other three.  In the case of the Suitland Pkwy list, the western endpoint should be "SCapSt", as the South is very prominent in that streetname to distinguish it from North Capitol St and East Capitol St.

I'm guessing from the lack of their inclusion that Oscar did not draft these lists.

(EDIT)  Also, for the Crystal City segment of the GW Pkwy, the southern terminus is actually at First St in Old Town Alexandria, not at Dangerfield Island.  A waypoint should be added at Slaters Ln.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: yakra April 24, 2016, 11:33:57 AM
This looks like a case (i'm not checking out the lists here) of following the CHM/TM standard of ignoring directional specifiers ("N. 6th St becomes 6thSt. 33rd Avenue SW becomes 33rdAve.") unless needed to differentiate otherwise identical labels.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar April 24, 2016, 11:40:33 AM
I'm guessing from the lack of their inclusion that Oscar did not draft these lists.

My main contributions to usanp are in California, largely to move some mileage there from usaca.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 April 25, 2016, 08:18:15 AM
This looks like a case (i'm not checking out the lists here) of following the CHM/TM standard of ignoring directional specifiers ("N. 6th St becomes 6thSt. 33rd Avenue SW becomes 33rdAve.") unless needed to differentiate otherwise identical labels.
Exactly that.

I'll make the changes.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: bhemphill December 18, 2016, 05:39:50 PM
In Kentucky at Mammoth Cave National Park, both Kentucky 70 and 255 are not mapped within the park.  So I would guess this would be a case of those routes cut off by a National Park that should be included.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 May 27, 2017, 10:15:34 AM
Big bump - I'm looking at getting the ball rolling on this system again. I've added the Mammoth Cave routes.

Are there other routes that need to be added? Criteria are:
1) a missing gap in an existing system (eg Mammoth Cave, California Routes, Yellowstone)
2) a specific NPS unit for the road (eg Natchez Trace, Blue Ridge, George Washington Memorial and Baltimore-Washington Parkways)
3) a through route linking roads already in (eg Painted Canyon Road)
4) an extension of an existing system into a park
5) roads that seem important enough and link with other roads - even if they dead-end

AFAICS, US441 in Great Smoky Mountains NP is part of US441, just badly signed. I've added the Gatlinburg Bypass though. Grand Canyon NP seems correct now (US180 ending at the gate, AZ64 and AZ67 signed through the park albeit maintained by the NPS rather than AZDOT)

PS - old thread on AA Roads: http://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=16772.0
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: CharlotteAllisonCDTG May 27, 2017, 01:57:43 PM
Just to let you know, the Gatlinburg Bypass is actually US 441 Bypass (just unsigned).
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: SSOWorld May 28, 2017, 12:07:24 AM
Denali Park Rd (AK) - though beyond mile 14 only bus, bike, foot allowed
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar May 28, 2017, 07:28:50 AM
In CA, at least the main road through Joshua Tree NP, and perhaps the spur to I-10. Badwate Rd. in Death Valley NP connecting CA 178 and CA 190, Scotty's Castle Rd. connecting CA 190 to NV 267, and perhaps Daylignt Pass Rd. between CA 190 and NV 374 (this would include a short segment in the NV part of the park). Perhaps also the road to Devil's Postpile, extending past the west end of CA 203, though like the road in Denali NP in Alaska is heavily restricted for private motor vehicles, and is in a national monument rather than an NP.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: mapmikey May 28, 2017, 10:33:21 AM
Some suggestions...

CO: Mesa Verde NP road
ME:  cadillac Mtn Summit Rd...?  very popular to go see the sunrise and sunsets up there
MT: the road from MT 49 to Two Medicine area of Glacier NP
NC:  road from BRP to Craggy Gardens?
NC/TN: road to Clingmans Dome?
SD: road through Badlands NP (SD 240 is not posted in the park although SD 377 is.)
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: SSOWorld May 28, 2017, 10:55:33 AM
Chain of Craters Rd and Crater Rim Drive - Hawaii Volcanoes NP
Sunrise Rd - Mt Rainier NP (WA)
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar May 28, 2017, 10:23:00 PM
Also in HI, on Maui the part of Haleakala Crater Road (to the summit) that isn't in HI 378.

Haleakala NP has an important road in its coastal unit, but it's part of CR 31, and isolated from the state route system. Both of the roads SSOWorld mentions in Hawaii Volcanoes NP connect to HI 11, though volcano goddess Madame Pele severed Chain of Crater's connection to HI 130 and may nibble away some more at what's left.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: the_spui_ninja May 28, 2017, 10:58:51 PM
Some suggestions...

SD: road through Badlands NP (SD 240 is not posted in the park although SD 377 is.)
North SD 377 is signed TO SD 240, so it's implied. I've lived West River for a long time, and never felt like 240 was discontinuous like the Yellowstone routes.
Plus, the official route logs have 240 continuous through the park. Here:
 http://www.sddot.com/transportation/highways/planning/pavement/Default.aspx (http://www.sddot.com/transportation/highways/planning/pavement/Default.aspx)

The only other park roads that would be close to "important enough" in SD are the Jewel Cave entrance road and the Wind Cave cutoff road where the visitor center is... but I'm not really sure they're important enough to be in the system.

However, the Devils Tower road in WY should be (if Monuments count, that is), because it's an implied continuation of WY 110 (some maps even have WY 110 continuing into the park though that's not the case). Other potential WY ones would be the Grand Teton NP main road (Teton Park Road) and the Moose-Wilson Road (connecting to WY 390).

The only ones I can see in ND would be the Scenic Loop Drive in the south unit of Theodore Roosevelt and the Scenic Drive in the north unit.

Also, since the other scenic drives in Utah are in, the Capitol Reef one should be in as well.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Bickendan May 28, 2017, 11:47:49 PM
I wouldn't mind if Pacific Ave through Medora, ND (old US 10) and East River Rd and Scenic Loop Dr through Theodore Roosevelt NP (South Unit) were added... ;)
(I think Scenic Loop Dr in the North Unit should be added as well)
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 May 29, 2017, 11:58:41 AM
Denali Park Rd (AK) - though beyond mile 14 only bus, bike, foot allowed
done
In CA, at least the main road through Joshua Tree NP, and perhaps the spur to I-10.
done and done
Badwate Rd. in Death Valley NP connecting CA 178 and CA 190, Scotty's Castle Rd. connecting CA 190 to NV 267, and perhaps Daylignt Pass Rd. between CA 190 and NV 374 (this would include a short segment in the NV part of the park).
Done, done and done
Perhaps also the road to Devil's Postpile, extending past the west end of CA 203, though like the road in Denali NP in Alaska is heavily restricted for private motor vehicles, and is in a national monument rather than an NP.
Done. It's not in a National Monument - it's in a National Forest, but I've pretended it's in the National Monument when it comes to names.
CO: Mesa Verde NP road
Actually had a file for this
ME:  cadillac Mtn Summit Rd...?  very popular to go see the sunrise and sunsets up there
done
MT: the road from MT 49 to Two Medicine area of Glacier NP
done
NC:  road from BRP to Craggy Gardens?
I couldn't find the road (I found Craggy Gardens and it seems to be pretty much directly on the BRP)
NC/TN: road to Clingmans Dome?
done - that one loves crossing the border, so it's in 6 pieces!
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 May 29, 2017, 12:54:44 PM
Some suggestions...

SD: road through Badlands NP (SD 240 is not posted in the park although SD 377 is.)
North SD 377 is signed TO SD 240, so it's implied. I've lived West River for a long time, and never felt like 240 was discontinuous like the Yellowstone routes.
Plus, the official route logs have 240 continuous through the park. Here:
 http://www.sddot.com/transportation/highways/planning/pavement/Default.aspx (http://www.sddot.com/transportation/highways/planning/pavement/Default.aspx)
SD240 wasn't (well not that section anyway) in the usasd section, so I added the whole thing from I-90 to I-90. SD maintainer to sort out?

However, the Devils Tower road in WY should be (if Monuments count, that is), because it's an implied continuation of WY 110 (some maps even have WY 110 continuing into the park though that's not the case).
Done. Monuments count, I feel.
Other potential WY ones would be the Grand Teton NP main road (Teton Park Road) and the Moose-Wilson Road (connecting to WY 390).
done and done

Also, since the other scenic drives in Utah are in, the Capitol Reef one should be in as well.
done

I wouldn't mind if Pacific Ave through Medora, ND (old US 10)
That doesn't belong in usanp, but is signed as business loop of I-94, and included (http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?units=km&u=si404&r=nd.i094blmed) in usaib.
and East River Rd and Scenic Loop Dr through Theodore Roosevelt NP (South Unit) were added... ;)
(I think Scenic Loop Dr in the North Unit should be added as well)
done, done and done
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: mapmikey May 29, 2017, 02:02:01 PM

NC:  road from BRP to Craggy Gardens?
I couldn't find the road (I found Craggy Gardens and it seems to be pretty much directly on the BRP)


It is this road:  https://goo.gl/maps/CogPxudeA1M2

This might be too short at 1.1 miles...I was thinking it was longer than that from memory of the last time I was there in 2011...

There is a much longer spur road off Blue Ridge Pkwy near Cherokee...technically the BRP part of this road ends at the Masonic Monument, though the road to the end is still a US gov't road.

https://goo.gl/maps/R7hcVycn4Vn

Also there are 2 BRP Spurs in the Roanoke VA area...

Here is the endpoint of one of them https://goo.gl/maps/VrysiYLz93R2 where it is ~2.5 miles to the BRP (https://goo.gl/maps/Lnvp29XBxVH2)

The other is the spur to Explore Park (~1.5 miles) - https://goo.gl/maps/xppL931xm1U2

Also there is a BRP spur to Linville Falls (~1.5 miles) - https://goo.gl/maps/cB6kPFxmQeo

These last 4 BRP Spurs are explicitly shown on the NPS map of the BRP - https://www.nps.gov/blri/planyourvisit/upload/blrimap-2.pdf

Another potential addition is Laurel Creek Rd/Cades Cove Loop in Smoky Mtn NP.  This is all paved and the loop part is one way.  It is 18 miles not counting the return trip back from the loop to TN 73:  https://goo.gl/maps/Tv9L7Tj2ySE2


What is the stance on National Battlefields?  This 3.6 mile road has a fee gate and an interchange with VA 36...(this one is interesting as it begins at VA 36 and you MUST go north first then you can double back and cross VA 36 to do the tour road which is one-way to US 301...
https://goo.gl/maps/a8jM5p6jefC2


: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 May 29, 2017, 02:17:45 PM
Sunrise Rd - Mt Rainier NP (WA)
done
Chain of Craters Rd and Crater Rim Drive - Hawaii Volcanoes NP
done. Madame Pele took away half of Crater Rim Drive, and I've not got the road through the park entrance mapped.

Also in HI, on Maui the part of Haleakala Crater Road (to the summit) that isn't in HI 378.
done
Haleakala NP has an important road in its coastal unit, but it's part of CR 31, and isolated from the state route system.
Perhaps add the whole of CR31 from HI37 to HI360 as "Hana Highway, Haleakalā NP"? OK, only two short stretches are actually in the National Park, but it seems an odd omission from the state highway network.


Just a heads up to collaborators if you want to add or change routes in your states - feel free - not least as it saves me doing it! Any comments/peer review would be gladly received.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 May 29, 2017, 04:05:38 PM

NC:  road from BRP to Craggy Gardens?
I couldn't find the road (I found Craggy Gardens and it seems to be pretty much directly on the BRP)


It is this road:  https://goo.gl/maps/CogPxudeA1M2

This might be too short at 1.1 miles...I was thinking it was longer than that from memory of the last time I was there in 2011...
I've left it off
There is a much longer spur road off Blue Ridge Pkwy near Cherokee...technically the BRP part of this road ends at the Masonic Monument, though the road to the end is still a US gov't road.
Added (listed as a road in GSM NP)

Also there are 2 BRP Spurs in the Roanoke VA area...

Here is the endpoint of one of them https://goo.gl/maps/VrysiYLz93R2 where it is ~2.5 miles to the BRP (https://goo.gl/maps/Lnvp29XBxVH2)

The other is the spur to Explore Park (~1.5 miles) - https://goo.gl/maps/xppL931xm1U2

Also there is a BRP spur to Linville Falls (~1.5 miles) - https://goo.gl/maps/cB6kPFxmQeo
all three added
Another potential addition is Laurel Creek Rd/Cades Cove Loop in Smoky Mtn NP.  This is all paved and the loop part is one way.  It is 18 miles not counting the return trip back from the loop to TN 73:  https://goo.gl/maps/Tv9L7Tj2ySE2
This is included, along with the link across to (AASHTO-recognised, but unsigned) US441, as four routes.
What is the stance on National Battlefields?
I say legit.
This 3.6 mile road has a fee gate and an interchange with VA 36...(this one is interesting as it begins at VA 36 and you MUST go north first then you can double back and cross VA 36 to do the tour road which is one-way to US 301...
added
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: the_spui_ninja May 29, 2017, 04:10:58 PM
Some suggestions...

SD: road through Badlands NP (SD 240 is not posted in the park although SD 377 is.)
North SD 377 is signed TO SD 240, so it's implied. I've lived West River for a long time, and never felt like 240 was discontinuous like the Yellowstone routes.
Plus, the official route logs have 240 continuous through the park. Here:
 http://www.sddot.com/transportation/highways/planning/pavement/Default.aspx (http://www.sddot.com/transportation/highways/planning/pavement/Default.aspx)
SD240 wasn't (well not that section anyway) in the usasd section, so I added the whole thing from I-90 to I-90. SD maintainer to sort out?
That makes sense; even outside the park the 240 reassurance shields have "Badlands Loop Road" trailblazers, so it's almost like a signed route.
Here's SD 240: http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?u=the_spui_ninja&r=sd.sd240 (http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?r=sd.sd240)
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: the_spui_ninja May 29, 2017, 04:19:24 PM
For Colorado, the Great Sand Dunes road and Black Canyon assorted roads (continuations of CO 150 and 347), as well as Rim Rock Drive in Colorado National Monument would make sense.

Here's a Black Canyon map: https://www.nps.gov/blca/planyourvisit/upload/BLCAmap_2013_w-masthead.pdf (https://www.nps.gov/blca/planyourvisit/upload/BLCAmap_2013_w-masthead.pdf)
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 May 29, 2017, 04:27:23 PM
Some suggestions...

SD: road through Badlands NP (SD 240 is not posted in the park although SD 377 is.)
North SD 377 is signed TO SD 240, so it's implied. I've lived West River for a long time, and never felt like 240 was discontinuous like the Yellowstone routes.
Plus, the official route logs have 240 continuous through the park. Here:
 http://www.sddot.com/transportation/highways/planning/pavement/Default.aspx (http://www.sddot.com/transportation/highways/planning/pavement/Default.aspx)
SD240 wasn't (well not that section anyway) in the usasd section, so I added the whole thing from I-90 to I-90. SD maintainer to sort out?
That makes sense; even outside the park the 240 reassurance shields have "Badlands Loop Road" trailblazers, so it's almost like a signed route.
Here's SD 240: http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?u=the_spui_ninja&r=sd.sd240 (http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?r=sd.sd240)
Gah, I opened SD204 instead of SD240. Never mind, it didn't take me that long.

However, if it's in usasd, then should it be in usanp?
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: the_spui_ninja May 29, 2017, 04:36:10 PM
Some suggestions...

SD: road through Badlands NP (SD 240 is not posted in the park although SD 377 is.)
North SD 377 is signed TO SD 240, so it's implied. I've lived West River for a long time, and never felt like 240 was discontinuous like the Yellowstone routes.
Plus, the official route logs have 240 continuous through the park. Here:
 http://www.sddot.com/transportation/highways/planning/pavement/Default.aspx (http://www.sddot.com/transportation/highways/planning/pavement/Default.aspx)
SD240 wasn't (well not that section anyway) in the usasd section, so I added the whole thing from I-90 to I-90. SD maintainer to sort out?
That makes sense; even outside the park the 240 reassurance shields have "Badlands Loop Road" trailblazers, so it's almost like a signed route.
Here's SD 240: http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?u=the_spui_ninja&r=sd.sd240 (http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?r=sd.sd240)
Gah, I opened SD204 instead of SD240. Never mind, it didn't take me that long.

However, if it's in usasd, then should it be in usanp?
Well, according to the AARoads discussion, probably not, but like I said, every shield outside of the park is of the format DIRECTIONAL---Badlands Loop---SD 240 so it could be considered a route in its own right.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: SSOWorld May 29, 2017, 05:41:46 PM
Since monuments count, Dunes Drive in White Sands NM - NM.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Jim May 29, 2017, 05:53:33 PM
Si's new additions are part of the site update now in progress.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Jim May 29, 2017, 06:34:26 PM
That update failed because of a typo I missed.  I'm rerunning with even more changes pulled in.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Jim May 29, 2017, 07:11:13 PM
Success this time.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: mapcat May 29, 2017, 07:56:11 PM
Would Lafayette Rd through Chickamauga & Chattanooga National Military Park (NW Georgia) qualify?
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Bickendan May 30, 2017, 12:23:35 AM

I wouldn't mind if Pacific Ave through Medora, ND (old US 10)
That doesn't belong in usanp, but is signed as business loop of I-94, and included (http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?units=km&u=si404&r=nd.i094blmed) in usaib.
(http://www.wordforge.net/images/smilies/awejeeze.gif)
I knew that.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: rschen7754 May 30, 2017, 01:03:56 AM
Olympic National Park might have some roads. The roads to Hurricane Ridge and the Hoh Rain Forest are fairly significant, but unfortunately they cut across non-NPS territory before they intersect US 101.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Jim May 30, 2017, 09:09:02 PM
It's already active in TM as NM 7, but there's also the Carlsbad Cavern Highway that could be added for completeness.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: SSOWorld May 30, 2017, 10:55:28 PM
It's already active in TM as NM 7, but there's also the Carlsbad Cavern Highway that could be added for completeness.
Not sure what you mean here, but if you're referring to my post on Dunes Drive in White Sands, that is a different road - off US 70 near Alomogordo
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Jim May 31, 2017, 08:25:23 AM
It's already active in TM as NM 7, but there's also the Carlsbad Cavern Highway that could be added for completeness.
Not sure what you mean here, but if you're referring to my post on Dunes Drive in White Sands, that is a different road - off US 70 near Alomogordo

This one:

http://tmtest.teresco.org/hb/?units=miles&u=terescoj&r=nm.nm007
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 June 08, 2017, 04:28:35 PM
This one:

http://tmtest.teresco.org/hb/?units=miles&u=terescoj&r=nm.nm007
As it's not really signed as anything, I'm not including it at the moment as its in as an NM state route. The Badlands Loop is different as it's signed as both (I believe that's the only route that is entirely concurrent with another - other than Yellowstone roads that will replace the usaus routes).


I've added a whole bunch more routes this week - mostly in things that aren't National Parks. Feedback about their inclusion (as well as the old routes) would be welcome, plus peer-review type comments.


This (and the usaush system) typically hasn't changed existing routes to add interchanging points (deliberately), so you might want to check in your states that if you feel like using AA Roads downtime productively. ;)
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: froggie June 15, 2017, 09:41:43 PM
Si:  noticed that the southern endpoint of the central (Crystal City) section of the GW Memorial Pkwy in Virginia still isn't correct (that I mentioned in the OP).  The south end should be at 1st St in Old Town Alexandria, and a waypoint should be added at Slaters Ln (a major connector point between GW Pkwy and US 1).  If you'd prefer, I can add these changes.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Duke87 June 17, 2017, 12:04:45 AM
I've added a whole bunch more routes this week - mostly in things that aren't National Parks. Feedback about their inclusion (as well as the old routes) would be welcome, plus peer-review type comments.

Is there an official list of NPS roads you are working off of?

When this system first arose its apparent purpose (to me, anyway) was to map NPS roads that are significant either due to being major roadways (Clara Barton Parkway, Beach Drive, etc.) or due to being roads which have a significant level of tourist appeal for the road itself (Natchez Trace Parkway, Going to the Sun Road, etc.). A lot of the newer additions aren't really either of those things (e.g. the roads in Delaware Water Gap NRA, Bear Lake Rd in Rocky Mountain NP) and therefore strike me as not worth including.

But, ideally we should have some criteria for inclusion that are both objective from an administrative perspective and reasonable from a user perspective.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 June 17, 2017, 02:40:00 AM
Is there an official list of NPS roads you are working off of?
No, because
1) there isn't one
2) I'm excluding rather a lot of routes that would be on such a list for being too minor
A lot of the newer additions aren't really either of those things (e.g. the roads in Delaware Water Gap NRA, Bear Lake Rd in Rocky Mountain NP) and therefore strike me as not worth including.
That's fine - happy to remove routes if there's a consensus that they are too minor.
But, ideally we should have some criteria for inclusion that are both objective from an administrative perspective and reasonable from a user perspective.
Those criteria are listed above.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: yakra June 19, 2017, 02:08:58 AM
Those criteria are listed above.
Link?
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 June 19, 2017, 05:14:59 AM
Are there other routes that need to be added? Criteria are:
1) a missing gap in an existing system (eg Mammoth Cave, California Routes, Yellowstone)
2) a specific NPS unit for the road (eg Natchez Trace, Blue Ridge, George Washington Memorial and Baltimore-Washington Parkways)
3) a through route linking roads already in (eg Painted Canyon Road)
4) an extension of an existing system into a park
5) roads that seem important enough and link with other roads - even if they dead-end
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Duke87 June 19, 2017, 08:53:35 PM
OK, firstly, I retract my previous assertion that Old Mine Road should not be included. It is signed with shields. (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0731082,-74.9638331,3a,15y,284.9h,88.3t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1st7WmKb9cgbRuUxq3HuWsWw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dt7WmKb9cgbRuUxq3HuWsWw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D144.70293%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656) That alone qualifies it if you ask me.

So, let's go for another example. What warrants Shoreline Drive (http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?units=miles&u=duke87&r=wv.shodr) and Shenandoah Street (http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?units=miles&u=duke87&r=wv.shest) for inclusion? They do not meet any of the first four criteria, and claiming them under criteria #5 is dubious when you consider they're short little roads in a small NHP.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Bickendan June 20, 2017, 02:40:30 AM
On the topic of Shenandoah St, do we have US 340 Alt, and if not, is it a decommissioned route or simply unsigned, as Wikipedia states? I always thought it was an odd route from when I first saw it in the Western Maryland/Eastern West Virginia Panhandle Thomas Guide (where it's mapped as a spur instead of a loop with Shenandoah St).
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: froggie June 20, 2017, 12:45:54 PM
ALT US 340 exists (and is unsigned), but NOT along Shenandoah St.  WVDOT shapefiles don't show Shenandoah St at all as a WV route (or Shoreline Dr either for that matter), which tells me that they are either under local or NPS jurisdiction.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 June 20, 2017, 01:15:16 PM
What warrants Shoreline Drive (http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?units=miles&u=duke87&r=wv.shodr) and Shenandoah Street (http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?units=miles&u=duke87&r=wv.shest) for inclusion?
Not a lot, though Shenandoah Street has some merit wrt linking to ALT340 if it was signed. Happy to remove if people don't want it.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: yakra June 20, 2017, 01:21:13 PM
My inclination would be to keep such a system slim, and not include routes that aren't relevant or appropriate. Right now though, I'm not too inclined to take a look into this system or the examples above and try to make a call whether they're relevant/appropriate or not.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Bickendan June 20, 2017, 08:54:32 PM
ALT US 340 exists (and is unsigned), but NOT along Shenandoah St.  WVDOT shapefiles don't show Shenandoah St at all as a WV route (or Shoreline Dr either for that matter), which tells me that they are either under local or NPS jurisdiction.
Good to see the Thomas Guide has the right routing
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: dfilpus July 02, 2017, 02:52:01 PM
When I looked at the roads in Kings Canyon National Park, I found that the Grant Grove segment of Kings Canyon Road (CA 180) is not included in usanp, presumably because it has CA 180 shields. However, it is not maintained by CalTrans, so it is not included in usaca, either. It should be in either usanp or usaca.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar July 04, 2017, 10:22:31 PM
Yes, and it belongs in usanp. The Grant Grove segment route file is ca.kincanrd_gra.wpt, and should be in the Github master already even though it's not in the .csv files. I also have a local copy if needed.

Also, I suggest renaming that file to ca.kincanrd.wpt, after renaming the file already with that name to ca.kincanrd_ced.wpt  The Grant Grove segment of Kings Canyon Rd. is used by all visitors to the park; the Cedar Grove segment is used only by those going out to the end of the highway, and is closed much of the year due to snow. In any case, the csvs should indicate that the KinCanRd segments are in different parts of the park.

One other option is a single KinCanRd file that includes the Grant Grove and Cedar Grove segments of Kings Canyon Rd., and the part of CA 180 connecting them.

I can go ahead and implement those changes, as well as a conforming relabel in the Generals Highway file (CA180 -> KinCanRd), when I have time while on the road.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: yakra July 04, 2017, 11:22:34 PM
No underscores in filenames though. Just concatenate the abbrev to what would otherwise be the root.
EG, fl.fltpkmia.wpt, and not fl.fltpk_mia.wpt.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar July 05, 2017, 08:32:41 PM
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/1427
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 August 16, 2017, 04:05:10 AM
I've made this system preview, so that people can clinch routes, see them on graphs, etc.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: dfilpus August 18, 2017, 10:32:54 AM
Could the Bryce Canyon Scenic Drive be broken up a little? It's 15.74 miles without a visible waypoint. I've driven much of the road, but have never been all the way out to Rainbow Point, so I can get no mileage in the park. The road to Bryce Point would make a natural waypoint. I think that the farthest we were in was Natural Bridge.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 August 18, 2017, 11:25:00 AM
Could the Bryce Canyon Scenic Drive be broken up a little?
Absolutely.
The road to Bryce Point would make a natural waypoint.
It will be called BryPoiRd
I think that the farthest we were in was Natural Bridge.
I put a point there too: NatBri
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar August 18, 2017, 11:51:27 PM
On Hawaii's Crater Rim Drive, part of the loop is omitted. That part seems to coincide with the area park maps indicate is currently closed due to volcanic activity. But AFAIK that closure is only indefinite (https://www.nps.gov/havo/closed_areas.htm), not necessarily permanent, and indeed in 2012 part of the originally closed part of the road was reopened to foot traffic.

I drove the entire loop on one of my first visits to Hawaii ca. 2000. It may be reopened in its entirety, if the crater area calms down again. I would treat the current closure as temporary, and add the rest of the loop.

Also, VocObs => VolObs.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: NickCPDX August 22, 2017, 11:36:28 AM
Suggestion on BadRd - Add waypoints for Harry Wade Rd, Badwater, Artists Drive N and S, West Side Rd N and S, Devils Golf Course Rd, Natural Bridge.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: bhemphill August 22, 2017, 09:35:43 PM
In Oregon, Pinnacles Road in Crater Lake NP has as its start point on Rim Drive the label PinRd.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: bejacob August 23, 2017, 07:52:25 AM
On Hawaii's Crater Rim Drive, part of the loop is omitted. That part seems to coincide with the area park maps indicate is currently closed due to volcanic activity. But AFAIK that closure is only indefinite (https://www.nps.gov/havo/closed_areas.htm), not necessarily permanent, and indeed in 2012 part of the originally closed part of the road was reopened to foot traffic.

I drove the entire loop on one of my first visits to Hawaii ca. 2000. It may be reopened in its entirety, if the crater area calms down again. I would treat the current closure as temporary, and add the rest of the loop.

I'd like to see that added as well. I drove the entire loop in March 2004 and would love to note that on my maps. I'm somewhat skeptical that the route will ever open again, though if conditions change, it could happen. I wouldn't hold my breath, though.  ;)
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 August 23, 2017, 03:43:23 PM
On Hawaii's Crater Rim Drive, part of the loop is omitted. That part seems to coincide with the area park maps indicate is currently closed due to volcanic activity. But AFAIK that closure is only indefinite (https://www.nps.gov/havo/closed_areas.htm), not necessarily permanent, and indeed in 2012 part of the originally closed part of the road was reopened to foot traffic.

I drove the entire loop on one of my first visits to Hawaii ca. 2000. It may be reopened in its entirety, if the crater area calms down again. I would treat the current closure as temporary, and add the rest of the loop.

I'd like to see that added as well. I drove the entire loop in March 2004 and would love to note that on my maps. I'm somewhat skeptical that the route will ever open again, though if conditions change, it could happen. I wouldn't hold my breath, though.  ;)
I've done this and it will come soon.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: SSOWorld November 12, 2017, 09:13:20 PM
I know this isn't a national park road, but one that could be considered - Woodlands Trace National Scenic Byway.  This (nor the land within) are managed by NPS - instead by US Forest Service, but it is a good park route that goes through the Land Btw The Lakes NRA in both Kentucky and Tennessee - also known (and marked as in OSM/Mapnick) as "The Trace".

Your call.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: charliezeb June 04, 2018, 10:29:49 PM
New contributor to the forum, pointing out a potential problem with Old Mine Rd (nj.oldminerd) in this system. Tried to clinch it yesterday (just as a motorist) and ran into a literal roadblock in Sandyston Twp, just north of Kuhn Rd (KuhnRd, waypoint 11). It's not well-paved between there and Walpack Rd (WalRd, waypoint 13), and apparently it enters private property (which is why a roadblock exists - guy doesn't want folks like us wandering through his lot). I've contacted the township to verify that it is private property. If so, I'd recommend rerouting a clinchable route along Kuhn Rd and Walpack Rd, both of which are well paved (though Old Mine Rd itself between Pompey Rd (PomRd, waypoint 10) and Kuhn Rd is in bad shape).

-- Charlie O'Reilly (Rutherford, NJ)
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: bhemphill June 05, 2018, 01:41:55 AM
The NPS map indicates that Old Mine Rd is unpaved between Pompey Rd and Walpack Rd, the stretch that you said was rough.  The NPS tiles map even indicates that stretch is a dirt road as it is labeled "Old Mine Dirt".  So there probably does need to be a rethink about that.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: charliezeb June 05, 2018, 03:33:47 PM
For the record, I got a reply from the NPS about Old Mine Road today.

"Old Mine Road is in fact a "public highway" and is open to through traffic within Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area, and Sandyston Township. The section you asked about is bordered by private land on both sides of the road.  ( just north of the intersection with Kuhn Road  for roughly 1/4-1/2 mile/ There are 2 privately-owned homes- one up on the hill to the left and the other right along the road on the left, headed north.)  Please respect the owners' property and privacy when passing through.  The road is currently blocked by the NPS due to a large tree that came down across the road in a recent storm.  We are working with the property owners to remove the tree and restore access.  I realize now that we neglected to properly notify the public of this road closure and apologize for any inconvenience that may have caused."

The rep also wrote, "We will be doing some paving work on Old Mine Road this fall so check in to see when it will take place and where." But it may not apply to the "dirt" section between Kuhn Rd and Walpack Rd. More likely, it's the sloping section between CR 602 and NPS 615, and/or the stretch between Pompey Rd and Kuhn Rd.

-- Charlie O'Reilly
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar June 05, 2018, 04:05:34 PM
Park roads need not be paved to belong in usanp. usanp has at least one road (in Alaska) that's mostly unpaved.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 June 05, 2018, 05:29:38 PM
Old Mine Road has shields (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@41.0731054,-74.9642916,3a,47.6y,59.98h,72.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s93qcJrzFNPxU7B9roEm6Lw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), which is the main reason its included. We might need to cut it short - GMSV isn't very good here (either old or missing).
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: dfilpus July 12, 2018, 01:05:55 PM
On the Blue Ridge Parkway in North Carolina, the first hidden waypoint west of NC226 is close to the interchange that connects to NC 226 Alt in Little Switzerland. It is signed on the Parkway as To NC 226 A. The hidden waypoint should be replaced with a visible waypoint for HighRidRd. NC 226 Alt has a waypoint for HighRidRd.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 July 15, 2018, 08:52:47 AM
On the Blue Ridge Parkway in North Carolina, the first hidden waypoint west of NC226 is close to the interchange that connects to NC 226 Alt in Little Switzerland. It is signed on the Parkway as To NC 226 A. The hidden waypoint should be replaced with a visible waypoint for HighRidRd. NC 226 Alt has a waypoint for HighRidRd.
Done. It seems I had it like that as it really efficiently did the shaping and made what is now 6 points (I know, I could have left the old point) just 1 point.
I know this isn't a national park road, but one that could be considered - Woodlands Trace National Scenic Byway.  This (nor the land within) are managed by NPS - instead by US Forest Service, but it is a good park route that goes through the Land Btw The Lakes NRA in both Kentucky and Tennessee - also known (and marked as in OSM/Mapnick) as "The Trace".
I've added this as:
1) it's a decent route to have added (links state routes, etc)
2) NRAs are sometimes NPS-run, sometimes USFS (and one is someone else), so a road in a USFS-run NRA isn't too off-piste. It's not much different to where a city maintains a state route.
3) we're not doing a one route usafs system (maybe it might get moved into a usansb system) - though no doubt someone else will give another example of another one.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: SSOWorld August 11, 2018, 06:22:02 AM
On Hawaii's Crater Rim Drive, part of the loop is omitted. That part seems to coincide with the area park maps indicate is currently closed due to volcanic activity. But AFAIK that closure is only indefinite (https://www.nps.gov/havo/closed_areas.htm), not necessarily permanent, and indeed in 2012 part of the originally closed part of the road was reopened to foot traffic.

I drove the entire loop on one of my first visits to Hawaii ca. 2000. It may be reopened in its entirety, if the crater area calms down again. I would treat the current closure as temporary, and add the rest of the loop.

Also, VocObs => VolObs.
There are portions now that one can consider permanent now as they fell into the grown Halema‘uma‘u crater.  The overlook fell in.

https://www.nps.gov/havo/planyourvisit/images/20180619_overlook_parking_lot_collapse_usgs.jpg (image to large to show here)

The southern and western portions are either gobbled or likely too unstable to be useable when the park re-opens and it might be likely the drive will be closed for years.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: SSOWorld September 01, 2018, 12:45:20 PM
https://www.nps.gov/npgallery/GetAsset/65f2d82d-190e-453d-80c9-f3a450f2224d?

In Hawaii Volcanoes National Park, the Fault line map with larger crater shown - roads are drawn on the map.  The section of Crater Rim Drive that fell into the crater was erased. In addition, the rest of the road is certain to be laced with ash (short term problem), including the overlook (past HVO). It's safe to say that CraRimDir between WPS VolObs and ChaCraRd can be dropped.  I wouldn't be surprised if the rest remains closed to public access for a lengthy amount of time (year?)

The park is scheduled to re-open on Sept 22 - obviously with limited access and assuming the collapse doesn't resume.  Recommend re-assessment at that time.

EDIT: The map may contain hints to the future of Crater Rim Drive (Marking of "Closed" between Jaggar museum and Chain of Craters Rd.)
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Duke87 September 03, 2018, 12:08:09 AM
Once more unto Old Mine Road: I went and drove the whole length of it (as currently mapped) today. I am going to propose it be truncated to the junction with NPS 615.

My primary justification for this is that there are zero shields anywhere north of this junction. Can verify personally as of today (technically yesterday in eastern time as it's after midnight).

Secondarily though, as Charlie describes, some of the road is rather iffy. Between Pompey Road and Dingman's Ferry, the road isn't just unpaved, it's a one lane gravel road with a lot of huge potholes in it. Here's a couple photos showing what we're dealing with here:
(https://i.imgur.com/03NQG8T.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/EdihlWd.jpg)

The section Charlie mentioned that has private property signs had a huge crater the entire width of the road. I had to drive on the grass next to the road (fortunately there was a car's width of grass next to the road) to get by.

This section certainly does not seem to me like something worthy of being mapped as a clinchable road.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 September 03, 2018, 06:29:53 AM
Noted - thank you all for the research.

Will truncate.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar September 03, 2018, 08:17:33 AM
https://www.nps.gov/npgallery/GetAsset/65f2d82d-190e-453d-80c9-f3a450f2224d?

In Hawaii Volcanoes National Park, the Fault line map with larger crater shown - roads are drawn on the map.  The section of Crater Rim Drive that fell into the crater was erased. In addition, the rest of the road is certain to be laced with ash (short term problem), including the overlook (past HVO). It's safe to say that CraRimDir between WPS VolObs and ChaCraRd can be dropped.  I wouldn't be surprised if the rest remains closed to public access for a lengthy amount of time (year?)

The park is scheduled to re-open on Sept 22 - obviously with limited access and assuming the collapse doesn't resume.  Recommend re-assessment at that time.

EDIT: The map may contain hints to the future of Crater Rim Drive (Marking of "Closed" between Jaggar museum and Chain of Craters Rd.)

It's safe to assume that the segment gobbled up by the expanded crater will never reopen except on a new alignment, so snipping out that segment would be the easiest option. Not necessarily the other parts of the road that are merely "ash-covered", though maybe snipping at least some of them approaching the permanent closure would be appropriate, so we needn't spend a lot of time watching the volcano for additional permanent closures.

I might have a chance to field-check this all next month, though I probably will not be allowed anywhere near the permanent road closure.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: neroute2 September 03, 2018, 01:30:36 PM
How about NPS 602?
http://www.google.com/maps/@41.073067,-74.9635212,3a,75y,203.68h,77.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVw4R-dz9UF1XJUAb1Ca-Yw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
There are also signs here for CR 602, but that route officially begins (http://www.state.nj.us/transportation/refdata/sldiag/21000602__-.pdf) near the "Fountain of Youth Spring".
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Markkos1992 September 20, 2018, 05:45:06 PM
FYI, I looked at the list of unprocessed wpt files and found the below route.  I do not know offhand what this is.

"hwy_data/PA/usanp/pa.autotrl.wpt" 
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Jim September 20, 2018, 08:13:27 PM
FYI, I looked at the list of unprocessed wpt files and found the below route.  I do not know offhand what this is.

"hwy_data/PA/usanp/pa.autotrl.wpt"

Loading it up in the wptedit program, it looks like a big collection of roads that wind around Gettysburg NMP.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: charliezeb October 01, 2018, 08:34:49 AM
Checking back in, thanks for the work on NPS 615 in New Jersey.

Next interesting question. I drove the stretch of George Washington Memorial Parkway between I-66 and I-495 yesterday, which I believe clinches that road for me. But I just noticed that the part of the road north of VA 400 is also listed in usasf (Select Freeways), albeit with no consideration for the district border (va.geowaspkwy is continuous even though the road runs in DC for a little over a mile). And they're separate files, with no overlap. Don't want to cross-post if I don't have to, but as a newbie I don't know the protocol.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: mapcat October 01, 2018, 10:09:32 AM
The GW Parkway has been part of usasf for many years, long before usanp was begun. Since it belongs in usanp, the usasf file will be deleted when usanp is promoted to active, but until then, it will exist in both.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: froggie October 01, 2018, 02:29:25 PM
^ Also, at the time it was added to usasf, it was decided by TPTB that, for simplicity, everything west of the Potomac's main channel would be considered "Virginia", which enabled it to be added as a single file instead of three.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 October 08, 2018, 01:24:06 PM
Loading it up in the wptedit program, it looks like a big collection of roads that wind around Gettysburg NMP.
Yes it's a signed Auto Trail around Gettysburg NMP. I removed it from the .csvs as it was very messy. I've since deleted it.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Markkos1992 November 15, 2018, 10:08:37 PM
I think the I-80 point for PA RivRd (River Road, Delaware Gap NRA) should be removed.  It was lined up with the I-80 "310" label(it will not be since I just moved it), but I would not consider River Rd itself as the main focal point of the interchange.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: yakra November 16, 2018, 12:01:51 AM
Ouch, yeah. That point really has no business being there at all.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Markkos1992 November 18, 2018, 08:32:57 PM
I think the I-80 point for PA RivRd (River Road, Delaware Gap NRA) should be removed.  It was lined up with the I-80 "310" label(it will not be since I just moved it), but I would not consider River Rd itself as the main focal point of the interchange.

On a second note, I moved the RivRd point on US 209 to the following location:

RivRd http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.078132&lon=-75.027874
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: dfilpus November 19, 2018, 11:00:38 AM
AK: Denali Park Road should have a visible waypoint at Stony Hill Overlook (there is a hidden point just west of the overlook). This overlook is the endpoint of the full Tundra Wilderness Tour, where the tour buses turn around. We're scheduled to take that tour next summer, which will be as far into the park as we will get.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar November 19, 2018, 01:24:31 PM
AK: Denali Park Road should have a visible waypoint at Stony Hill Overlook (there is a hidden point just west of the overlook). This overlook is the endpoint of the full Tundra Wilderness Tour, where the tour buses turn around. We're scheduled to take that tour next summer, which will be as far into the park as we will get.

Sounds reasonable to me, but can you help nail down the exact location? My guess is http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=63.457403&lon=-150.227965  A new point there could replace +X636766. The NPS zoomable interactive map seems not to have enough detail to identify overlook locations.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: dfilpus November 19, 2018, 03:20:43 PM
AK: Denali Park Road should have a visible waypoint at Stony Hill Overlook (there is a hidden point just west of the overlook). This overlook is the endpoint of the full Tundra Wilderness Tour, where the tour buses turn around. We're scheduled to take that tour next summer, which will be as far into the park as we will get.

Sounds reasonable to me, but can you help nail down the exact location? My guess is http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=63.457403&lon=-150.227965  A new point there could replace +X636766. The NPS zoomable interactive map seems not to have enough detail to identify overlook locations.
That's the location. The parking and bus turnaround is the little hook-shaped cul-de-sac inside the S-curve labelled "Stony Overlook" in OpenStreetMap.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar November 19, 2018, 04:56:15 PM
Don't know how I missed that. Maybe I didn't zoom in enough in OSM, after grabbing coordinates from satellite imagery.

I have an updated route file ready to go (also fixes a typo in another point), and pull in if OK with @si404.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 November 19, 2018, 04:59:10 PM
Excellent, go for it.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: yakra November 25, 2018, 02:44:42 AM
ms.tourrd: CarPark is an EN-UK phrase not really used in the US. Recommend UniAve_W instead.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: yakra November 27, 2018, 03:57:11 AM
OK PerRd: TraNatCen -> TavNatCen ?

ME SchLpRd ->
:
FraCrk http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.374403&lon=-68.071120
+X944468 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.372720&lon=-68.076181
MouRd http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.346003&lon=-68.066740
AcaDr http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.338829&lon=-68.056011
+X170357 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.339780&lon=-68.045003
+X138077 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.360372&lon=-68.046548
Win/Gou http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.364997&lon=-68.038434
The rest is not within the reservation jurisdiction.

ME ParkLpRd ->
:
SieMonRd_S http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.362420&lon=-68.203801
+X631237 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.361016&lon=-68.189220
SandBea http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.331032&lon=-68.185133
OttCliRd http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.314157&lon=-68.191420
+X270370 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.307067&lon=-68.191752
+X563093 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.317370&lon=-68.199563
+X482183 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.302368&lon=-68.203039
+X461661 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.297239&lon=-68.213811
+X890660 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.317308&lon=-68.227780
StaRd http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.313393&lon=-68.247113
JorPond http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.320194&lon=-68.252832
CadSumRd http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.368886&lon=-68.238595
ParHillRd http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.375289&lon=-68.233767
+X634096 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.375481&lon=-68.221664
GreMeaDr http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.369622&lon=-68.206172
SieMonRd_N http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.362420&lon=-68.203801
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: mikeandkristie December 03, 2018, 05:00:16 PM
OK PerRd: TraNatCen -> TavNatCen ?

I was curious why it went from TraNatCen to TavNatCen.  It is the Travertine Nature Center (https://www.nps.gov/chic/planyourvisit/travertine-information-and-nature-center.htm). 

That broke our file which I've fixed locally and will send in soon.

Mike
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 December 03, 2018, 06:33:39 PM
I was curious why it went from TraNatCen to TavNatCen.  It is the Travertine Nature Center (https://www.nps.gov/chic/planyourvisit/travertine-information-and-nature-center.htm).
Ask whomever changed it on OSM, because they have it as Tavertine, and yakra and I then followed that.

Changing back...
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: yakra December 03, 2018, 11:02:49 PM
Sorta like that pesky UT UT190 NorTraLn (http://forum.travelmapping.net/index.php?topic=2805.msg12323#msg12323), it looks like there's no actual access to/from MS TourRd at MelPl or RodDr or HilVal... :(
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Duke87 December 05, 2018, 10:22:32 PM
I would just as soon sidestep this by 86ing MS TourRd entirely. Looks to me like more of a path to follow for a self-guided tour of the park than a "route" per se. The existence of multiple loops generally supports this.

On the other hand, it does appear to have a shield of sorts (https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3750401,-90.867295,3a,15.6y,162.93h,83.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCDeBQbTPDrRkuuWC2i_NMg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). So, another case of stupid truck routes.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: dfilpus December 06, 2018, 09:05:45 AM
I would just as soon sidestep this by 86ing MS TourRd entirely. Looks to me like more of a path to follow for a self-guided tour of the park than a "route" per se. The existence of multiple loops generally supports this.

On the other hand, it does appear to have a shield of sorts (https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3750401,-90.867295,3a,15.6y,162.93h,83.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCDeBQbTPDrRkuuWC2i_NMg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). So, another case of stupid truck routes.
I agree with removing this route. There are many such touring routes in battlefields all over. I have driven similar routes in Gettysburg, Antietam, Chickamauga, Yorktown, Valley Forge, among others. Why single out Vicksburg for a routing without including all of the others?
There was a trial routing of the Gettysburg auto tour in the system which was removed due to its complexity.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 December 06, 2018, 12:27:07 PM
Froggie, you maintain MS - your call. I'll happily delete it if you think it should go. Or you can do it.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: froggie December 06, 2018, 07:39:26 PM
Given the precedent with Gettysburg, might as well ditch it.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Bickendan December 08, 2018, 07:15:48 AM
I was reviewing some ODOT maps, and OR 62 follows the pattern of other state highways in national parks: It doesn't exist in Crater Lake National Park.
But since Oregon's two-tiered systems can muddy the waters, it could be that OR 62 is signed within the park and it's really ORH 22 that's split into two segments. Field checking this will be required.

Ultimately, I believe OR 62 will need to be split into two, with a new intervening CraLakeHwy route tieing the two segments together.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 December 08, 2018, 08:26:25 AM
From GMSV

At the west entrance of the NP, there are OR62 reassurance shields in both directions as the county boundary is marked - link (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@42.9016658,-122.2839247,3a,75y,44.42h,95.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-x2oJ1E1b7E0K4jzpALNHg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). The pavement changes roughly here too (suggesting a maintenance border).

At the south entrance there's no OR62 shields. Though there are reassurance markers for the Volcanic Legacy Scenic Byway. One might expect begin/end signs if Oregon didn't view the road as continuing through the national park.

Where the main road to the lake turns off, there's this sign (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@42.8658623,-122.1691271,3a,41.4y,219.97h,93.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sS91e7s0l1eH-ag1m_1VfLw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en) which says "Highway 62 Jct".

NPS's maps of the NP mostly don't have OR62 marked in the park, but this one (https://www.nps.gov/crla/planyourvisit/images/Crater-Lake-Map-for-Current-Conditions-Handout-Base-Map-for-Website-to-Complement-Area-Map-qual-5-res-100.jpg?maxwidth=1200&maxheight=1200&autorotate=false) does mark it.

I'm going to say that, while there's a break in state maintenance, the gap in OR62 is merely administrative, with both Oregon and the NPS viewing the road through the park as being part of Highway 62.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Markkos1992 December 10, 2018, 10:09:12 PM
I think the I-80 point for PA RivRd (River Road, Delaware Gap NRA) should be removed.  It was lined up with the I-80 "310" label(it will not be since I just moved it), but I would not consider River Rd itself as the main focal point of the interchange.

On a second note, I moved the RivRd point on US 209 to the following location:

RivRd http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.078132&lon=-75.027874

Ouch, yeah. That point really has no business being there at all.

I decided to go ahead and take care of this.  I have had some issues with how I do things in Github tonight so I hope everything comes out correctly.

https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/2412
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 December 17, 2018, 06:14:01 AM
Rather than these add hoc corrections, does anyone want to do a systematic review of the system?
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: dfilpus December 18, 2018, 04:01:12 PM
Part 1 of review, by state:
AK, AL, AZ: No comments.
CA BigOakRd:
CA GenHwy: Add a waypoint at Crescent Meadow Road.
CA KinCanRd: Add a waypoint at Grant Tree Road.
CA LasPeakHwy: Are both Summit Lake Camp waypoints necessary?
CA MinSumRd: DevPosAccRd => DevPosRd
CA TioPassRd: Western hidden waypoint => TuoGro
CA WawRd: Add waypoint at Tunnel View
DC BeaDr: Remove "NW" suffixes from all waypoints. These are equivalent to directional prefixes that are not used on waypoints.
DC RockCrkPkwy: Ditto.
DC SuiPkwy:
     SCapSt -> CapSt
     Remove "SE" suffixes from all waypoints.
FL MainParkRd: Amp-> End
GA: No comment.
HI CraRimDr: The road is open to Kilauea Military Camp.
KY MamCavePkwy:
     GreRivFerRd  -> GreRivRd
     FliRidRd should be moved to the parking lot and renamed End.






: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar December 18, 2018, 05:02:06 PM
HI CraRimDr: The road is open to Kilauea Military Camp.

I noticed this too when I was out there in October. That said, I'm OK with truncating Crater Rim to the most important part (connection between HI 11 and Chain of Craters Rd.), rather than try to keep up with what volcano goddess Madame Pele does next to the road. Crater Rim once was a complete loop in TM, but we gave up on that when part of the loop collapsed into the Halema'uma'u Crater.

I'll look over the CA comments (on routes that I drafted, or snipped out of usaca) after the holidays.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 December 18, 2018, 06:09:28 PM
DC BeaDr: Remove "NW" suffixes from all waypoints. These are equivalent to directional prefixes that are not used on waypoints.
DC RockCrkPkwy: Ditto.
DC SuiPkwy:
     SCapSt -> CapSt
     Remove "SE" suffixes from all waypoints.
The suffixes were added after this specific request.

Second, and impacting 3 of the 4 lists, is that the city quadrant is very prominent in DC signage, waymaking, and usage.  Because of this, they should have been included.  This doesn't affect the GW Pkwy list, but it does affect the other three.  In the case of the Suitland Pkwy list, the western endpoint should be "SCapSt", as the South is very prominent in that streetname to distinguish it from North Capitol St and East Capitol St.

I'm easy either way.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: mapcat December 18, 2018, 08:33:54 PM
I'm in favor of dropping the suffixes (and prefix for CapSt), especially since none of the DC routes in this set exists in more than one quadrant, making it unnecessary to differentiate among streets with slightly different names. ISTM that the only times the directional affixes are needed is either when there are two separate, similarly-named roads nearby (such as S River Rd along one bank of the river, and N River Rd on the opposite side), or when the directional term is part of the name (such as DC's North Carolina Ave & South Carolina Ave, which are not the same street).
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: yakra December 18, 2018, 11:56:43 PM
Also favor dropping the suffixes.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: dfilpus December 19, 2018, 10:28:16 AM
Part 2 of review, by state:

MD BalWasPkwy: MD201 has a waypoint for MD295/BaltWash, but there is no waypoint on MD295 or BalWasPkwy.
ME SchLpRd: What does Win/Gou mean as the east terminal?
MS NatTraPkwy:
     US61_PG -> US61_N
     US61_Ad -> US61_S
MT: No comments.
NC BlueRidPkwy: CirRidRd is not an intersection. Move waypoint to Mt Lyn Lowry viewpoint or make hidden.
NC LinFalRd: LinFalDisCen -> End or VisCen
ND, NE, NJ: No comments.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: froggie December 19, 2018, 11:39:18 AM
: dfilpus
DC SuiPkwy:
     SCapSt -> CapSt

I disagree with this.  South is specifically part of the street name here.  Surprised Oscar didn't mention it since he still lives in the area.  I'm guessing those who suggest its removal are unaware of the peculiarities of D.C.'s street system.

: mapcat
or when the directional term is part of the name (such as DC's North Carolina Ave & South Carolina Ave, which are not the same street).

The "Capitol Streets" in D.C. operate under this same principle.  North Capitol St ≠ South Capitol St ≠ East Capitol St.

: dfilpus
MD BalWasPkwy: MD201 has a waypoint for MD295/BaltWash, but there is no waypoint on MD295 or BalWasPkwy.

There's a waypoint...it's simply labeled differently because the waypoint is also coincident with US 50.  IMO, the solution here would be to relabel the BalWasPkwy list point to match that of the MD295 list (label it as "US50/201").
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: dfilpus December 19, 2018, 11:52:58 AM

: dfilpus
MD BalWasPkwy: MD201 has a waypoint for MD295/BaltWash, but there is no waypoint on MD295 or BalWasPkwy.

There's a waypoint...it's simply labeled differently because the waypoint is also coincident with US 50.  IMO, the solution here would be to relabel the BalWasPkwy list point to match that of the MD295 list (label it as "US50/201").
MD201 has two waypoints for MD295/BaltWash. The southern one is labeled "US50/295". The northern one is labeled "MD295". It is this northern waypoint on MD201 that has no corresponding waypoint on MD295 or BalWasPkwy.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 December 19, 2018, 01:38:55 PM
FL MainParkRd: Amp-> End
KY MamCavePkwy:
     GreRivFerRd  -> GreRivRd
     FliRidRd should be moved to the parking lot and renamed End.
MD BalWasPkwy: MD201 has a waypoint for MD295/BaltWash, but there is no waypoint on MD295 or BalWasPkwy.
MS NatTraPkwy:
     US61_PG -> US61_N
     US61_Ad -> US61_S
NC BlueRidPkwy: CirRidRd is not an intersection. Move waypoint to Mt Lyn Lowry viewpoint or make hidden.
NC LinFalRd: LinFalDisCen -> End or VisCen
Done these: https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/2431

rickmastfan67 (FL), mapcat (KY), froggie (MS), and mapmikey (NC) - I've made changes to roads in your states, but only usanp. MD is no one specific, so my adding a point to MD295 should be fine (though, IIRC, that's not MD295 and needs to be truncated when we activate the system).
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: froggie December 19, 2018, 04:14:50 PM
^^ Okay, I see which point you're referring to now.  Odd that Tim considered that single ramp a "separate interchange".
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Markkos1992 December 19, 2018, 05:21:17 PM
(though, IIRC, that's not MD295 and needs to be truncated when we activate the system).

I have always thought that it was MD 295, but it was just unsigned in favor of the Baltimore-Washington Pkwy designation on the portion maintained by the NPS.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: mapcat December 19, 2018, 07:53:20 PM
North Capitol St ≠ South Capitol St ≠ East Capitol St.

North Capitol St and South Capitol St mostly follow the same longitude, and would form a continuous street had someone not decided to put a building where the designation changes.

(You modified my post, rather than replied)

Froggie's reply: The building in question came first.  And the two really are different streets.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: mapmikey December 19, 2018, 08:26:38 PM

Done these: https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/2431

rickmastfan67 (FL), mapcat (KY), froggie (MS), and mapmikey (NC) - I've made changes to roads in your states, but only usanp. MD is no one specific, so my adding a point to MD295 should be fine (though, IIRC, that's not MD295 and needs to be truncated when we activate the system).

Acknowledged...thanks
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: bhemphill December 20, 2018, 12:00:44 AM
It looks like those particular streets were named in the original plan before they or the buildings were built.  https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3850.ct000299/ (https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3850.ct000299/)
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: dfilpus December 21, 2018, 10:32:23 AM
Part 3 of review, by state:

NM DunDr: DuneLifeNatTrl -> DuneLifeTrl
NV WhePeakSceDr: WhePeakSceDr actually starts at waypoint LehCavVisCen. The road that is a continuation of NV 488 into the park is named "Entrance Road". It continues to the Visitor Center. WhePeakSceDr should be truncated to LehCavVisCen -> EntRd. Entrance Road should have its own map.
OK PerRd: This road doesn't really have a concurrency with US 177.
OR CraLakeHwy: Could use a visible waypoint, perhaps at the PCT crossing or Pumice Desert view parking lot?
OR CraLakeRimDr: Could use more visible waypoints, perhaps at Cleetwood Cove parking lot and Cloudcap Viewpoint Road?
PA, SC, SD: No comments.
TN LauCreRd: CadCoveLpRd -> CadCoveLp or CadCoveRd
TN LitRivGorRd: WearCoveGapRd -> WearCoveRd
TX: No comments.


: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: dfilpus December 22, 2018, 10:49:19 AM
Part 4 of review, by state:

UT CubCreRd: QuaVisCen -> UT149
UT KolTerRd: OakVlyRd -> OakValRd
UT NeeSceDr: LockHartRd -> LockRd
UT ZionCynDr: Add waypoint for Zion Lodge.
VA ColPkwy: Add waypoint for North England Street exit to the Royal Palace.
VA SieRd: EFlaVisCen -> VisCen
VA SkyDr: BearDenMtnTrl -> BearDenTrl ; BlaRockGapRd -> BlaRockRd
WA HurRidRd: OlyNPVisCen -> NPVisCen
WA SunParkRd: WhiRivCamRd -> WhiRivRd
WA UppHohRd: HohRainForVC -> VisCen
WY DevTowRd: BelFouRivCamp -> BelFouRd
WY GraLpRd: GibFls - GibFal ; NRimDr -> SRimDr
WY MooWilRd: WhiGraTraRd -> WhiGraRd
WY SEntRd: Technically, US89/191 could be RocMemDr

: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: the_spui_ninja December 22, 2018, 12:23:44 PM
WY DevTowRd: BelFouRivCamp -> BelFouRd
Sorry to butt in, but I think the name of that road is actually Campground Rd: http://crookgrowdev.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=7238ec86a82749ff9154ee84734f5c33 (http://crookgrowdev.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=7238ec86a82749ff9154ee84734f5c33)
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 December 22, 2018, 12:26:35 PM
ping oscar (NM, NV), yakra (OK), Bickendan (OR), mapcat (TN), Duke87 (UT), mapmikey (VA) and compdude787 (WA) as I've changed usanp files in your states per this review.

While we're waiting for Oscar (no hurry) to chime in on the DC issue and make the CA changes, I'll happily receive other review comments.

Like this one:
Sorry to butt in, but I think the name of that road is actually Campground Rd: http://crookgrowdev.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=7238ec86a82749ff9154ee84734f5c33 (http://crookgrowdev.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=7238ec86a82749ff9154ee84734f5c33)
which I've fixed locally, but not added to open pull request.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: froggie December 22, 2018, 12:41:57 PM
: dfilpus
VA SkyDr: BearDenMtnTrl -> BearDenTrl ; BlaRockGapRd -> BlaRockRd

Where did you get these?  Everything I'm seeing shows the original name labels were correct.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: yakra December 22, 2018, 01:08:02 PM
: dfilpus
VA SkyDr: BearDenMtnTrl -> BearDenTrl ; BlaRockGapRd -> BlaRockRd
Where did you get these?  Everything I'm seeing shows the original name labels were correct.
These are cases of keeping with the manual's instructions on roads names with >3 words:
If the cross road name has more than 3 words, use one of two options:
1. Pick out the two most important words besides the road type and use only those: Martin Luther King Boulevard becomes MarKingBlvd. Three words in total are included in shortened form.
2. Pick out one important word besides the road type and use it and the initials of the other words: Martin Luther King Boulevard becomes MLKingBlvd. Two words in total are included in shortened form along with initials of the rest.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: froggie December 22, 2018, 01:27:52 PM
I saw that as a Tim-quirement from when he was trying to minimize file sizes and such, which became a moot point when we shifted to TM.  I can see it as an optional item, though.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: yakra December 22, 2018, 01:48:09 PM
But we're still using the manual, save for a few minor changes such as allowing exit numbers on US Routes. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater...
IMO it's good practice to not let labels get overly long, potentially gunking up things taking up too much real estate onscreen in the HB.
And then, when combining labels into vertex names in the HDX, things start growing much more quickly.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: mapcat December 22, 2018, 02:46:09 PM
I agree with keeping the labels short & simple per the manual whenever possible. These examples don't seem likely to cause confusion for users.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: mapmikey December 22, 2018, 03:30:40 PM
ping oscar (NM, NV), yakra (OK), Bickendan (OR), mapcat (TN), Duke87 (UT), mapmikey (VA) and compdude787 (WA) as I've changed usanp files in your states per this review.



Acknowledged...thanks
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Duke87 December 22, 2018, 05:21:04 PM
ping oscar (NM, NV), yakra (OK), Bickendan (OR), mapcat (TN), Duke87 (UT), mapmikey (VA) and compdude787 (WA) as I've changed usanp files in your states per this review.

I haven't been touching anything in usanp so no conflict here.

I went ahead and changed the endpoint of UT149 from DinNM -> CubCreRd to match (well, "DinNM" remains as hidden alt since it's in use). Will be reflected in my next update.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: michih December 23, 2018, 02:27:04 AM
I agree with keeping the labels short & simple per the manual whenever possible.

Seconded. I don't like long labels with more than 3 words. Keep it simple!
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Bickendan December 23, 2018, 02:27:14 AM
ping oscar (NM, NV), yakra (OK), Bickendan (OR), mapcat (TN), Duke87 (UT), mapmikey (VA) and compdude787 (WA) as I've changed usanp files in your states per this review.



Acknowledged...thanks
likewise!
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: froggie December 23, 2018, 07:48:34 AM
Some of us still don't understand this HDX thing.  Seems far above and beyond the original intentions of the project.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: mapcat December 23, 2018, 08:21:08 AM
Some of us still don't understand this HDX thing.  Seems far above and beyond the original intentions of the project.
Besides being useful for detecting NMP errors, it also makes TM data more useful for Jim's classes. That may not be the original intention of the project, but it's one of the main reasons the project still exists.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Duke87 December 23, 2018, 10:33:09 PM
I've been relying on nearmisspoints.log to find NMPs. It's straightforward and easy to use.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: michih December 24, 2018, 03:06:17 AM
Some of us still don't understand this HDX thing.

HDX is a great tool to identify broken concurrencies and check for near-miss points. That's it. All other features is not relevant for us but for Jim's students.
Without HDX, we would find these issues falsifying stats only at random.

I've been relying on nearmisspoints.log to find NMPs. It's straightforward and easy to use.

It's just software and software does always have room for improvement. If anyone has a problem with using it, one can report it here or on GitHub and there is always a chance that it might be improved.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar December 28, 2018, 11:26:13 PM
CA BigOakRd:
CA GenHwy: Add a waypoint at Crescent Meadow Road.
CA KinCanRd: Add a waypoint at Grant Tree Road.
CA LasPeakHwy: Are both Summit Lake Camp waypoints necessary?
The southern point seems more dispensable, and isn't in use.
CA MinSumRd: DevPosAccRd => DevPosRd
Done. I also changed the north endpoint (Mad/Mon) to CA203.
CA TioPassRd: Western hidden waypoint => TuoGro
I suggest reposition and rename to OldBOFRd_W, and rename existing OldBOFRd to OldBOFRd_E
CA WawRd: Add waypoint at Tunnel View
I agree with this change, and all the others above on which I haven't otherwise commented.

My pull request to implement the CA changes submitted (#2466) (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/2466).
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: compdude787 December 29, 2018, 12:21:13 PM
I agree with keeping the labels short & simple per the manual whenever possible. These examples don't seem likely to cause confusion for users.

I'd agree as well with keeping labels as short as possible. I'd rather not have to be copy-pasting long labels from the HB to my list file.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: yakra December 30, 2018, 01:27:20 AM
ME ParkLpRd: remove Sieur de Monts Rd
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/2460
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: Markkos1992 December 30, 2018, 02:35:34 PM
PA RivRd: Relocated Broad St (BroSt) due to new roundabout (https://wnep.com/2018/12/03/drivers-now-using-new-roundabout-in-delaware-water-gap/) (drawn on Google Maps but not in GSV). Changed HilDr to Gap View Dr.

https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/2462
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 January 01, 2019, 05:49:09 AM
Datacheck issues, most of which are Visible Distances (that we don't need to mark as FP as they are removed as errors when system activated). I'm sure most are false positives

ak.parkrd   IglCrkCamp,TokRivSta   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   18.36   ak.parkrd;IglCrkCamp;TokRivSta;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;18.36
al.nattrapkwy   MS/AL,US72   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   11.64   al.nattrapkwy;MS/AL;US72;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;11.64
ca.badrd   CA178,HarWadeRd   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   10.32   ca.badrd;CA178;HarWadeRd;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;10.32
ca.badrd   WestSideRd_S,Bad   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   23.40   ca.badrd;WestSideRd_S;Bad;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;23.40
ca.bigoakrd   BigOakRd   LABEL_SELFREF      ca.bigoakrd;BigOakRd;;;LABEL_SELFREF;
ca.elporrd   SenDr_S,NorDr,SenDr_N   SHARP_ANGLE   163.07   ca.elporrd;SenDr_S;NorDr;SenDr_N;SHARP_ANGLE;163.07
ca.elporrd   SouDr_W,SouDr_E   DUPLICATE_COORDS   (37.716941,-119.666224)   ca.elporrd;SouDr_W;SouDr_E;;DUPLICATE_COORDS;(37.716941,-119.666224)
ca.laspeakhwy   +x188,+x191,+x192   SHARP_ANGLE   139.36   ca.laspeakhwy;+x188;+x191;+x192;SHARP_ANGLE;139.36
ca.minsumrd   RedsMeaRes,+X799297,RedsMeaCamp   SHARP_ANGLE   136.22   ca.minsumrd;RedsMeaRes;+X799297;RedsMeaCamp;SHARP_ANGLE;136.22
ca.minsumrd   SodaSprCamp,AgnMeaRd,CA203   SHARP_ANGLE   156.13   ca.minsumrd;SodaSprCamp;AgnMeaRd;CA203;SHARP_ANGLE;156.13
ca.pinbasrd   MecDaleRd,ParkBlvd   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   22.22   ca.pinbasrd;MecDaleRd;ParkBlvd;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;22.22
ca.scocasrd   DayPassRd,TitCynRd   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   14.21   ca.scocasrd;DayPassRd;TitCynRd;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;14.21
ca.scocasrd   TitCynRd,MesRd   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   17.71   ca.scocasrd;TitCynRd;MesRd;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;17.71
co.bearlakerd   +X188630,+X817209,+X283029   SHARP_ANGLE   142.39   co.bearlakerd;+X188630;+X817209;+X283029;SHARP_ANGLE;142.39
co.bearlakerd   +X672063,OldBearLakeRd_N,HolParkRd   SHARP_ANGLE   146.64   co.bearlakerd;+X672063;OldBearLakeRd_N;HolParkRd;SHARP_ANGLE;146.64
co.bearlakerd   BearLake,+X188630,+X817209   SHARP_ANGLE   135.30   co.bearlakerd;BearLake;+X188630;+X817209;SHARP_ANGLE;135.30
co.bearlakerd   MorParkCamp,+X122853,+X640280   SHARP_ANGLE   156.68   co.bearlakerd;MorParkCamp;+X122853;+X640280;SHARP_ANGLE;156.68
co.bearlakerd   OldBearLakeRd_N,HolParkRd,+X623312   SHARP_ANGLE   147.93   co.bearlakerd;OldBearLakeRd_N;HolParkRd;+X623312;SHARP_ANGLE;147.93
co.mesaverrd   +X329794,+X260741,+X579668   SHARP_ANGLE   136.85   co.mesaverrd;+X329794;+X260741;+X579668;SHARP_ANGLE;136.85
co.rimrockdr   +X148951,+X157499,+X889271   SHARP_ANGLE   159.01   co.rimrockdr;+X148951;+X157499;+X889271;SHARP_ANGLE;159.01
fl.mainparkrd   MahHam,FlaRd   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   17.46   fl.mainparkrd;MahHam;FlaRd;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;17.46
fl.mainparkrd   RoyPalm,PaHayOkee   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   10.45   fl.mainparkrd;RoyPalm;PaHayOkee;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;10.45
me.cadsumrd   +X133948,+X138493,CadMtn   SHARP_ANGLE   136.02   me.cadsumrd;+X133948;+X138493;CadMtn;SHARP_ANGLE;136.02
me.cadsumrd   +X185788,+X133948,+X138493   SHARP_ANGLE   148.79   me.cadsumrd;+X185788;+X133948;+X138493;SHARP_ANGLE;148.79
me.cadsumrd   +X858922,+X185788,+X133948   SHARP_ANGLE   156.59   me.cadsumrd;+X858922;+X185788;+X133948;SHARP_ANGLE;156.59
me.parklprd   +X270370,+X563093,+X482183   SHARP_ANGLE   142.10   me.parklprd;+X270370;+X563093;+X482183;SHARP_ANGLE;142.10
me.parklprd   OttCliRd,+X270370,+X563093   SHARP_ANGLE   149.61   me.parklprd;OttCliRd;+X270370;+X563093;SHARP_ANGLE;149.61
me.parklprd   SieMonRd_S,SieMonRd_N   DUPLICATE_COORDS   (44.36242,-68.203801)   me.parklprd;SieMonRd_S;SieMonRd_N;;DUPLICATE_COORDS;(44.36242,-68.203801)
ms.nattrapkwy   CanRd,MS43   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   10.87   ms.nattrapkwy;CanRd;MS43;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;10.87
ms.nattrapkwy   MS12,MS413   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   15.28   ms.nattrapkwy;MS12;MS413;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;15.28
ms.nattrapkwy   MS16,MS429   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   11.52   ms.nattrapkwy;MS16;MS429;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;11.52
ms.nattrapkwy   MS18,FisFryRd   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   18.03   ms.nattrapkwy;MS18;FisFryRd;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;18.03
ms.nattrapkwy   MS27,MS467   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   12.58   ms.nattrapkwy;MS27;MS467;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;12.58
ms.nattrapkwy   MS413,MS415   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   10.15   ms.nattrapkwy;MS413;MS415;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;10.15
ms.nattrapkwy   MS429,MS19/35   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   13.83   ms.nattrapkwy;MS429;MS19/35;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;13.83
ms.nattrapkwy   MS43,MS16   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   20.40   ms.nattrapkwy;MS43;MS16;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;20.40
ms.nattrapkwy   MS533,MS552   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   10.06   ms.nattrapkwy;MS533;MS552;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;10.06
ms.nattrapkwy   US61_N,MS533   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   11.92   ms.nattrapkwy;US61_N;MS533;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;11.92
ms.nattrapkwy   US82,MS15   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   10.27   ms.nattrapkwy;US82;MS15;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;10.27
mt.goisunrd   +X568313,+X377714,+X833031   SHARP_ANGLE   166.73   mt.goisunrd;+X568313;+X377714;+X833031;SHARP_ANGLE;166.73
mt.goisunrd   AvaCamp,LogPass   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   14.72   mt.goisunrd;AvaCamp;LogPass;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;14.72
nc.blueridpkwy   +X726553,+X231819,+X779126   SHARP_ANGLE   136.64   nc.blueridpkwy;+X726553;+X231819;+X779126;SHARP_ANGLE;136.64
nc.blueridpkwy   ElkMtnSceHwy,NC128   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   17.84   nc.blueridpkwy;ElkMtnSceHwy;NC128;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;17.84
nc.blueridpkwy   NC151,NC191   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   10.74   nc.blueridpkwy;NC151;NC191;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;10.74
nc.blueridpkwy   NC18_S,US21   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   17.11   nc.blueridpkwy;NC18_S;US21;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;17.11
nc.blueridpkwy   NC226,US221_Lin   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   11.64   nc.blueridpkwy;NC226;US221_Lin;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;11.64
nc.blueridpkwy   US21,NC18_N   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   11.08   nc.blueridpkwy;US21;NC18_N;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;11.08
nc.blueridpkwy   US23/74,NC215   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   17.93   nc.blueridpkwy;US23/74;NC215;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;17.93
nm.chalooprd   +X731081,PueArr,PueBon   SHARP_ANGLE   140.66   nm.chalooprd;+X731081;PueArr;PueBon;SHARP_ANGLE;140.66
nv.whepeaksd   +X428182,+X721767,+X712721   SHARP_ANGLE   142.16   nv.whepeaksd;+X428182;+X721767;+X712721;SHARP_ANGLE;142.16
nv.whepeaksd   +X721767,+X712721,+X408584   SHARP_ANGLE   149.92   nv.whepeaksd;+X721767;+X712721;+X408584;SHARP_ANGLE;149.92
nv.whepeaksd   LowLCCamp,UppLCCamp,+X875034   SHARP_ANGLE   152.91   nv.whepeaksd;LowLCCamp;UppLCCamp;+X875034;SHARP_ANGLE;152.91
or.cralakerimdr   CraLakeHwy_W,CraLakeHwy_E   DUPLICATE_COORDS   (42.966033,-122.151575)   or.cralakerimdr;CraLakeHwy_W;CraLakeHwy_E;;DUPLICATE_COORDS;(42.966033,-122.151575)
tn.cadcovelprd   LauCreRd_A,LauCreRd_B   DUPLICATE_COORDS   (35.606475,-83.774164)   tn.cadcovelprd;LauCreRd_A;LauCreRd_B;;DUPLICATE_COORDS;(35.606475,-83.774164)
tn.foopkwyw   US321_Wal,US321_Wea   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   13.02   tn.foopkwyw;US321_Wal;US321_Wea;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;13.02
tn.nattrapkwy   RaiBedRd,US64   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   15.02   tn.nattrapkwy;RaiBedRd;US64;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;15.02
tn.nattrapkwy   TN7,TN46   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   12.83   tn.nattrapkwy;TN7;TN46;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;12.83
tn.nattrapkwy   US412,TN50   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   15.48   tn.nattrapkwy;US412;TN50;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;15.48
tx.mainparkrd   DagFlatRd,ChaDraRan   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   13.17   tx.mainparkrd;DagFlatRd;ChaDraRan;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;13.17
tx.mainparkrd   RGVlgRd,DagFlatRd   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   12.65   tx.mainparkrd;RGVlgRd;DagFlatRd;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;12.65
tx.rgvlgrd   PanDr,BoqCanRd   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   18.67   tx.rgvlgrd;PanDr;BoqCanRd;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;18.67
ut.briviewdr   +X412413,OwaBriOve,BriViewDr_N   SHARP_ANGLE   139.52   ut.briviewdr;+X412413;OwaBriOve;BriViewDr_N;SHARP_ANGLE;139.52
ut.briviewdr   +X966440,KacBriOve,+X412413   SHARP_ANGLE   150.49   ut.briviewdr;+X966440;KacBriOve;+X412413;SHARP_ANGLE;150.49
ut.briviewdr   BriViewDr_N   LABEL_SELFREF      ut.briviewdr;BriViewDr_N;;;LABEL_SELFREF;
ut.briviewdr   BriViewDr_S,BriViewDr_N   DUPLICATE_COORDS   (37.608682,-109.986556)   ut.briviewdr;BriViewDr_S;BriViewDr_N;;DUPLICATE_COORDS;(37.608682,-109.986556)
ut.briviewdr   BriViewDr_S   LABEL_SELFREF      ut.briviewdr;BriViewDr_S;;;LABEL_SELFREF;
ut.kolterrd   +X296003,+X241424,+X686912   SHARP_ANGLE   148.34   ut.kolterrd;+X296003;+X241424;+X686912;SHARP_ANGLE;148.34
ut.kolterrd   SmiMesRd,SprSprDr   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   12.46   ut.kolterrd;SmiMesRd;SprSprDr;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;12.46
va.blueridpkwy   PeaRd,SR781   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   13.03   va.blueridpkwy;PeaRd;SR781;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;13.03
va.blueridpkwy   SR608_E,SR607_S   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   16.70   va.blueridpkwy;SR608_E;SR607_S;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;16.70
va.blueridpkwy   SR664_N,US250   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   12.48   va.blueridpkwy;SR664_N;US250;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;12.48
va.blueridpkwy   US221,US220   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   13.28   va.blueridpkwy;US221;US220;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;13.28
va.blueridpkwy   US221/460,VA43   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   14.36   va.blueridpkwy;US221/460;VA43;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;14.36
va.blueridpkwy   VA130,SR607_N   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   10.58   va.blueridpkwy;VA130;SR607_N;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;10.58
wa.hurridrd   HeaOTheHil,HRVisCen   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   10.54   wa.hurridrd;HeaOTheHil;HRVisCen;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;10.54
wa.stecynrd   ParVlyRd_S,WA123   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   16.37   wa.stecynrd;ParVlyRd_S;WA123;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;16.37
wa.stecynrd   WA706,ParVlyRd_N   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   12.77   wa.stecynrd;WA706;ParVlyRd_N;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;12.77
wa.sunparkrd   +X165287,+X526700,+X776898   SHARP_ANGLE   144.07   wa.sunparkrd;+X165287;+X526700;+X776898;SHARP_ANGLE;144.07
wa.sunparkrd   Sun,SunPt,+X387041   SHARP_ANGLE   165.83   wa.sunparkrd;Sun;SunPt;+X387041;SHARP_ANGLE;165.83
wa.sunparkrd   SunPt,+X387041,+X165287   SHARP_ANGLE   163.99   wa.sunparkrd;SunPt;+X387041;+X165287;SHARP_ANGLE;163.99
wy.gralprd   +X16,SEntRd,+X17   SHARP_ANGLE   145.64   wy.gralprd;+X16;SEntRd;+X17;SHARP_ANGLE;145.64
wy.gralprd   +X26   HIDDEN_JUNCTION   3   wy.gralprd;+X26;;;HIDDEN_JUNCTION;3
wy.gralprd   EEntRd,SouRimDr   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   12.71   wy.gralprd;EEntRd;SouRimDr;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;12.71
wy.gralprd   NEEntRd,NEntRd_E   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   17.02   wy.gralprd;NEEntRd;NEntRd_E;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;17.02
wy.gralprd   NEntRd_W,NEntRd_E   DUPLICATE_COORDS   (44.976343,-110.700999)   wy.gralprd;NEntRd_W;NEntRd_E;;DUPLICATE_COORDS;(44.976343,-110.700999)
wy.gralprd   NEntRd_W,YakCampRd,+X01   SHARP_ANGLE   157.12   wy.gralprd;NEntRd_W;YakCampRd;+X01;SHARP_ANGLE;157.12
wy.gralprd   NorCynRd_E,NEEntRd   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   16.12   wy.gralprd;NorCynRd_E;NEEntRd;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;16.12
wy.gralprd   OldFaiRd,SEntRd   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   16.20   wy.gralprd;OldFaiRd;SEntRd;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;16.20
wy.gralprd   YakCampRd,+X01,BunPeakRd   SHARP_ANGLE   138.99   wy.gralprd;YakCampRd;+X01;BunPeakRd;SHARP_ANGLE;138.99
wy.sentrd   US89/191,LewLake   VISIBLE_DISTANCE   11.06   wy.sentrd;US89/191;LewLake;;VISIBLE_DISTANCE;11.06
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar January 01, 2019, 08:40:41 AM
Datacheck issues, most of which are Visible Distances (that we don't need to mark as FP as they are removed as errors when system activated). I'm sure most are false positives

ca.bigoakrd   BigOakRd   LABEL_SELFREF      ca.bigoakrd;BigOakRd;;;LABEL_SELFREF;
ca.elporrd   SenDr_S,NorDr,SenDr_N   SHARP_ANGLE   163.07   ca.elporrd;SenDr_S;NorDr;SenDr_N;SHARP_ANGLE;163.07
ca.elporrd   SouDr_W,SouDr_E   DUPLICATE_COORDS   (37.716941,-119.666224)   ca.elporrd;SouDr_W;SouDr_E;;DUPLICATE_COORDS;(37.716941,-119.666224)
ca.laspeakhwy   +x188,+x191,+x192   SHARP_ANGLE   139.36   ca.laspeakhwy;+x188;+x191;+x192;SHARP_ANGLE;139.36
ca.minsumrd   RedsMeaRes,+X799297,RedsMeaCamp   SHARP_ANGLE   136.22   ca.minsumrd;RedsMeaRes;+X799297;RedsMeaCamp;SHARP_ANGLE;136.22
ca.minsumrd   SodaSprCamp,AgnMeaRd,CA203   SHARP_ANGLE   156.13   ca.minsumrd;SodaSprCamp;AgnMeaRd;CA203;SHARP_ANGLE;156.13

The BigOakRd label self-ref can be fixed by renaming that point to TioPassRd. BigOakRd is a point in use, so list files would be broken.

The two ElPorRd duplicate coordinates are FPs, due to the route being a lollipop-shaped loop route that intersects itself.

The sharp angle errors are also FPs, except one in MinSumRd can be easily eliminated by removing shaping point +X799297. The ones on LasPeakRd can be eliminated by removing two shaping points and tweaking a third, but I'd rather leave them alone and just mark them as FPs. Also, ElPorRd needs some recenterings, which will also eliminate its sharp angle error.

While we're at it, I'll tweak CA ScoCasRd, CA and NV DayPassRd, and their connecting usanv routes, to better match up with the state line and park boundary.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: froggie January 01, 2019, 09:24:48 AM
Most (if not all) of the Blue Ridge Parkway and Natchez Trace Parkway errors are false positives.  There are some lengthy segments between access points on both.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: yakra January 01, 2019, 11:18:53 AM
The BigOakRd label self-ref can be fixed by renaming that point to TioPassRd. BigOakRd is a point in use, so list files would be broken.
LABEL_SELFREF is only flagged for primary labels, so BigOakRd could become an AltLabel.
.lists can still be broken though, as usanp is still a preview system. :)
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: yakra January 01, 2019, 11:52:00 AM
I'll take care of the Maine (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/2470) and Texas (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/2469) entries.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 January 01, 2019, 12:24:21 PM
I've gone through the bolded entries (ie non-vis dis). Adding them to datacheckfps.log (including Maine, which I'd got to earlier). I'll green stuff that will be listed as false positives after my pull request gets merged.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: yakra January 01, 2019, 12:40:57 PM
Oh man. I didn't see your response till after I opened a pull request and edited my last comment. I'll have to watch & see if there are conflicts to resolve.
Edit: Oh wait. I don't see any of your changes in GitHub yet.
In my copy, I deleted one of ParkLpRd's shaping points, so there was only one entry to mark FP.
In Texas, I was able to add visible points to break up distance.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 January 01, 2019, 01:03:44 PM
I've gone and removed the Maine stuff from what I was going to do, so there won't be conflicts. I've not put them in yet, as I'm blitzing through several other preview-level system's datacheck entries as a bit of New Year's cleaning.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar January 01, 2019, 06:16:04 PM
The BigOakRd label self-ref can be fixed by renaming that point to TioPassRd. BigOakRd is a point in use, so list files would be broken.
LABEL_SELFREF is only flagged for primary labels, so BigOakRd could become an AltLabel.
.lists can still be broken though, as usanp is still a preview system. :)

True. But I've made an exception for a system about to be activated, which is where Si seems to be going. So it'll be TioPassRd +BigOakRd in my pull request tonight.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 January 01, 2019, 06:55:36 PM
True. But I've made an exception for a system about to be activated, which is where Si seems to be going.
Indeed...

I'm struggling to think what is left to be done. Are people happy with Sunday?

I believe the following changes would need to be made on activation (of which only the Virginia one isn't either my region or a free-for-all)

2019-01-06;(US) Maryland;MD295;md.md295;Truncated at south end from US50/MD201 to MD175
2019-01-06;(US) Montana;US20;mt.us020;Route truncated at east end from Wyoming border to Yellowstone National Park Entrance
2019-01-06;(US) Montana;US89;mt.us089;Route truncated at south end from Wyoming border to Yellowstone National Park Entrance
2019-01-06;(US) Montana;US191 (West Yellowstone);mt.us191wye;Route truncated at south end from Wyoming border to Yellowstone National Park Entrance
2019-01-06;(US) Montana;US212 (Cooke City);mt.us212coo;Route truncated at west end from Wyoming border to Yellowstone National Park Entrance
2019-01-06;(US) Montana;US287;mt.us287;Route truncated at south end from Wyoming border to Yellowstone National Park Entrance
2019-01-06;(US) Virginia;George Washington Parkway;va.gwmempkwy;Route deleted (replaced by usanp version)
2019-01-06;(US) Wyoming;US14;wy.us014;Route truncated at west end from US89/191 to Yellowstone National Park Entrance
2019-01-06;(US) Wyoming;US16;wy.us016;Route truncated at west end from US89/191 to Yellowstone National Park Entrance
2019-01-06;(US) Wyoming;US20;wy.us020;Route truncated at west end from Montana border to Yellowstone National Park Entrance
2019-01-06;(US) Wyoming;US89;wy.us089;Route truncated at north end from Montana border to Yellowstone National Park Entrance
2019-01-06;(US) Wyoming;US191;wy.us191;Route truncated at north end from Montana border to Yellowstone National Park Entrance
2019-01-06;(US) Wyoming;US212 (Yellowstone National Park);wy.neentrd;Route deleted (replaced with Northeast Entrance Road)
2019-01-06;(US) Wyoming;US287;wy.us287;Route truncated at north end from Montana border to Yellowstone National Park Entrance
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: michih January 02, 2019, 11:20:58 AM
With these 146 routes - and deleting of 2 routes - we will have 30,017 active routes then :)
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar January 02, 2019, 08:14:49 PM
In Wyoming, what about the parts of US 26/89/191/287 within Grand Teton NP, and the part of US 89/191/287 between Grand Teton NP and Yellowstone NP that is concurrent with the Rockefeller Memorial Parkway? I guess we're treating those US routes as existing within Grand Teton NP but not Yellowstone NP. I'm not sure that's wrong, but just checking.

I've edited the local copy of my list file to delete the US routes within Yellowstone NP, and replace them with the corresponding park roads. But I've not added the Rockefeller Memorial Parkway, since it's concurrent with parts of other routes not targeted for truncation.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 January 03, 2019, 05:03:56 AM
In Wyoming, what about the parts of US 26/89/191/287 within Grand Teton NP, and the part of US 89/191/287 between Grand Teton NP and Yellowstone NP that is concurrent with the Rockefeller Memorial Parkway? I guess we're treating those US routes as existing within Grand Teton NP but not Yellowstone NP. I'm not sure that's wrong, but just checking.
Yep - the logs for the US routes have a discontinuity in Yellowstone* (which IIRC is unique - the other candidate of US441 Great Smokey Mountains doesn't actually do this), but continue through the other NPS properties.

I think this is partially as Yellowstone predates the US highway system, whereas Grand Teton is from 1929 and the JD Rockefeller Parkway is from 1972 (and existed to give the NPS continuous land). Similar is why US180 ends at the entrance to Grand Canyon NP. Other early NPs don't, I believe, have US routes nearby to not go through them.

*cf this on the old CHM forum (http://clinched.s2.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?p=14768&mforum=clinched#14768). For completeness, while I'm on the old forum, this thread (http://clinched.s2.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?t=739&mforum=clinched), and this one (http://clinched.s2.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?t=598&mforum=clinched) ought to be linked in as early discussion on this topic.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar January 07, 2019, 07:53:41 PM
Topic moved to Completed Highway Systems Threads, since usanp was activated over the weekend.

I'd like to request/suggest a few points on Utah's Needles Scenic Drive in Canyonland National Park. The point I'm requesting is for the Wooden Shoe Overlook, west of existing waypoint ResRd. I have a photo confirming that I went to that overlook (and also that I traveled part of the scenic drive, as well as all of UT 211). But I don't remember if I went any farther west on the scenic drive. My visit to the park was about two decades ago, when I was not as good at recording my travels or trying to clinch roads. Satellite imagery in the Waypoint Editor pinpoints the location of that overlook.

My suggested point is to replace shaping point +X764588 with visible point EleHillRd. Elephant Hill Rd. leads to Squaw Flat Campground. OSM shows the road and intersection.

I'll submit a pull request tomorrow for my proposed changes to NeeSceDr, pinging si404 and Duke87 in case either wants to look at the changes.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar February 26, 2019, 08:09:28 PM
While going through my photo archives for more trip reports to post on the AARoads forum, it occurred to me that there are two more Alaska roads that could be belatedly added to usanp. These would be the ~ 50 mile-long McCarthy Road from AK 10 in Chitina to near McCarthy, and the ~40 mile-long Nabesna Road from the Tok Cut-Off segment of AK 1 east to near the old Nabesna mine. Both roads provide access to the Wrangell-St. Elias National Park and Preserve. Almost all of the McCarthy Road is within park/preserve boundaries, as is most of the Nabesna Road. The McCarthy Road offers access to the historic copper mining towns of McCarthy and Kennicott. The Nabesna Road provides access to the historic Nabesna gold mine, and other Park Service recreational sites.

The one potential rub is that both roads are unnumbered state highways. The roads were there before the national park was established in 1980, and remain under state maintenance.

I have route files ready for both. For the McCarthy Road, I scavenged its file from an old AK 10 route file, back when we thought AK 10 reached McCarthy rather than ending in Chitina.

Any comments on whether one or both roads are appropriate additions to usanp?
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: froggie February 26, 2019, 11:00:26 PM
^ If they were under NPS maintenance, I'd say yes they'd be appropriate.  But since you mention they're unsigned state routes (and DOT&PF maintained) and given precedent elsewhere, I'll say no.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 February 27, 2019, 04:13:14 AM
I don't believe maintenance matters (the Vermont issue) unless it affects numbering.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: bejacob February 27, 2019, 08:50:14 AM
The one potential rub is that both roads are unnumbered state highways. The roads were there before the national park was established in 1980, and remain under state maintenance.


Any comments on whether one or both roads are appropriate additions to usanp?

What sort of signage exists? That might help make a determination whether to include them.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar February 27, 2019, 09:55:34 AM
The one potential rub is that both roads are unnumbered state highways. The roads were there before the national park was established in 1980, and remain under state maintenance.


Any comments on whether one or both roads are appropriate additions to usanp?

What sort of signage exists? That might help make a determination whether to include them.

Neither road has an assigned route number, other than a six-digit Alaska DOT&PF inventory number, so there is no route number signage. Alaska has many long and significant routes, most of which are outside national parks, that don't have route numbers. The three roads that are the spokes of the Nome highway network, the unnumbered part of the Taylor Highway to Eagle, and Chena Hot Springs Road east of Fairbanks, each are unnumbered roads longer than the McCarthy and Nabesna roads.

The only distinctive signs on the McCarthy Road are various brown National Park Service signs (http://www.alaskaroads.com/McCarthyRd-NP-boundary-sign-WB-590px_DSC3491.jpg), and also some nonstandard milemarkers in a different number sequence than for connecting AK 10. 

I haven't driven the Nabesna Road, and there's no GMSV coverage. But the Milepost travel guide log for that road reports there are signs indicating you're entering/leaving/are within Park Service land, as well as an "end state maintenance" sign just before its east end.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: yakra February 28, 2019, 11:43:02 PM
I don't believe maintenance matters (the Vermont issue) unless it affects numbering.
Maintenance is a one-size-does-not-fit-all thing. Maintenance does not matter in VT, NH, or ME. Nor in RI from what I gather? In CT, it affects route numbering.
So yeah, I'd say this is true for numbered state systems, though it breaks down once we're doing unnumbered, named roads. For instance, maintenance was a big factor on what got included in usanyp. (Well, more accurately I guess, the answer to "Does it have a NYSDOT reference route number?", but I digress...)
I comes down to how much Si chose to consider maintenance when planning/drafting this system.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: si404 March 01, 2019, 02:48:50 PM
I comes down to how much Si chose to consider maintenance when planning/drafting this system.
Didn't consider it much at all.

With a grab-bag-esque system like this, I'd argue that when it comes to those sort of issues, the local maintainer can choose.

Are the OSM boundaries, or the Google boundaries more correct (presumably OSM is just the NP, Google the Preserve too?) - if Googles, then I concur, if OSM then there's a lot outside the national parks.
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar March 01, 2019, 04:48:31 PM
Are the OSM boundaries, or the Google boundaries more correct (presumably OSM is just the NP, Google the Preserve too?) - if Googles, then I concur, if OSM then there's a lot outside the national parks.

The National Park Service's map (http://National Park Service's map) for Wrangell-St. Elias differentiates between the park and the preserve. OSM's boundaries more or less follow the "park" boundaries, while Google's lump together the "park" and "preserve" parts.  NPS boundary signs along the McCarthy Road also distinguish between the park and the preserve, indicating whether the park is on both sides of the highway, or the preserve is, or in some places the park is on one side of the road and the preserve is on the other side. (I don't know about the Nabesna Road, since neither I nor GMSV have been there, though the Milepost travel guide suggests that its NPS signage is similar.) Those signs are most relevant to hunters/fishermen/trappers, since they are under looser restrictions in the preserve than in the park.

But on either side of the line, the land is protected by the NPS, and there's not much difference between park and preserve protections (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_preserve). And the major tourist destinations within Wrangell-St. Elias, especially the historic Kennecott copper mine and the nearby small town of McCarthy, are within preserve rather than park boundaries. So I would lump together the park and the preserve.

The park/preserve distinction doesn't come up that often. There are only 21 national preserves in the U.S., 10 of which are in Alaska. Of the 21 national preserves in the U.S., 11 are combination national park (or monument)/national preserves. Seven of them are in Alaska, and of those only two (Wrangell-St. Elias, Denali) have roads in their park areas, and two (Wrangell-St. Elias, and the isolated Katmai in southwestern Alaska) have roads in their preserve areas.

FWIW, the Generals Highway, in California and usanp, starts in Kings Canyon NP and ends in Sequoia NP, and is a key shortcut between the two parks. But the middle of the highway is in Forest Service lands (under the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture), rather than NPS (Dept. of the Interior).   
: Re: usanp (U.S. National Park Highways)
: oscar March 04, 2019, 08:25:15 AM
Pull request submitted to add McCarthy Rd. and Nabesna Rd. to usanp:

https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/2633