Travel Mapping

Highway Data Discussion => Updates to Highway Data => Topic started by: mariethefoxy on July 23, 2017, 11:20:11 pm

Title: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: mariethefoxy on July 23, 2017, 11:20:11 pm
The database is missing NY 25 Truck which is a truck route on the North Fork of Long Island to get around a low railroad overpass in Mattituck. It is well signed out there in the field.

Going West to East

40.9673 -72.5627 NY25_W (Western Terminus)
40.9864 -72.5759 SoundAve_W
40.9881 -72.5519 SoundAve_E (begin multiplex with Suffolk CR48)
41.0457,-72.4659 HenrysLn
41.07530,-72.42534 BosAve
41.1104,-72.3765 MooresLn
41.113997, -72.368059 NY25_E

Also there is the short NY 25C, technically a hidden route but signs were placed on it.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7525241,-73.7014251,3a,75y,80.18h,76.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szJiij8pA864sLcW1ZUJnPg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7547785,-73.6885756,3a,75y,255.82h,89.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srbJ-xQ43geW9rejOe6TzcQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I leave that up to the judges if that counts as a NY state highway for the logs or not

here is waypoints for it anyway.

40.75254,-73.70164 LakeVilleRd
40.75480,-73.68780 NHPRd
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: vdeane on July 24, 2017, 05:55:11 pm
I've heard about this one before, though I've never seen signs posted in street view (and I don't remember any specific to this one when I drove there in 2015, though I may have been going the wrong direction).  Is it new?

There's also another Truck NY 25 in Greenport, using Moores Lane and North Road.

Some others we're missing:
-Truck NY 14 (Elmira): Clemens Center Parkway, Grand Central Avenue, McCanns Boulevard
-Truck NY 17C (Waverly): Broad Street Extension, William Donnelly Indus Parkway (not sure if this one counts; Bing streetside only shows "Truck Route" signs, not "Truck NY 17C" or "Truck Route NY 17C", but I've heard Region 9 refer to it as Truck NY 17C before)
-Truck NY 27 (Brooklyn): 10th Street, McDonald Avenue, Church Avenue
-Truck NY 32 (Glens Falls): Oakland Avenue
-Truck NY 340: William Street, Main Street

I believe there is a Bypass NY 125 in Scarsdale not in the system as well.

Regarding NY 25C, it was decommissioned a while ago and the signs seem to be erroneous.  If it were to be added, it would bring up the question of why the signed reference routes (most notably NY 990V) aren't in the system.

There's been an issue on this in GitHub for a while.  Ultimately, it comes down to the question of if the truck routes should be in the system.  NYSDOT Main Office doesn't consider them official and has no inventory of them.  They're signed by a mix of municipalities and the Regions and I'm not aware of an inventory at the regional level either.  Signage isn't consistent either; while some are the traditional bannered "Truck NY (or US) XX", others are "Truck Route NY XX" (often the route number only appears on the first sign directing trucks on the route and the other turns and reassurance shields are simply "Truck Route") or simply "Truck Route".
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: yakra on July 24, 2017, 06:00:50 pm
There's been discussion of NY Truck Routes (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/issues/505) before, going back to the CHM days.
I kinda wanna read up on the earlier discussion in those threads before taking action; GMSV around & see what I can see, how things may differ among the truck routes already in the HB... oh dear... Mission Creep... :)
Right now though, I am leaning more towards including it than not. (FWIW, NY29TrkSar (http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?r=ny.ny029trksar) and NY9PTrkSar (http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?r=ny.ny009ptrksar) were added at my recommendation back in 2011/2012.)
In the meantime, I've put together a draft route file from the coords and labels you posted, and can start GMSVing around there.

As for NY25C, I'll have a look through the Traffic Data Report, TDV, etc.
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: yakra on July 24, 2017, 06:41:00 pm
I only found one sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.1140502,-72.3678057,3a,41y,252.23h,88.7t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1sMy3yrGsXrn7pBYe9IlREgg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!9m2!1b1!2i41) for NY25Trk. Dunno if that's really enough to lobby for including it...

Quote
I believe there is a Bypass NY 125 in Scarsdale not in the system as well.
Similarly, I opted to leave this out due to incomplete / not fully convincing signage.
There's some discussion in this thread (http://tm.teresco.org/forum/index.php?topic=245).

Bypass NY 125 is not considered part of the state system by Main Office, making it similar to the bannered Truck routes (which are either Truck NY X or Truck Route NY X, the usage of which appears to vary by region) in NY, so it should probably be handled the same way as whatever we decide to do for the truck routes.

Quote
Regarding NY 25C, it was decommissioned a while ago and the signs seem to be erroneous.  If it were to be added, it would bring up the question of why the signed reference routes (most notably NY 990V) aren't in the system.
Shown as Reference Route 900F in the Traffic Data Viewer. (https://gis3.dot.ny.gov/html5viewer/?viewer=tdv) Looks like it was decommed, and should be left out.

As for the rest of the truck routes, I'm going to kick that can down the road. I'll copy @vdeane's list over to the GitHub issue (https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/issues/505) (it's on my watchlist) to keep track of the info, and then mark this topic as solved for housekeeping purposes.
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: Jim on July 24, 2017, 06:50:01 pm
I remain in favor of dropping them entirely, as more trouble than they're worth.
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: vdeane on July 24, 2017, 07:17:57 pm
I only found one sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.1140502,-72.3678057,3a,41y,252.23h,88.7t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1sMy3yrGsXrn7pBYe9IlREgg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!9m2!1b1!2i41) for NY25Trk. Dunno if that's really enough to lobby for including it...
And I think that sign is part of the Greenport one too... interesting how both Truck NY 25 routes end at the same spot.

Other end (Greenport) (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0998236,-72.3722891,3a,52y,25.18h,84.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skFHsBRvd10zNPdC7JsEFKg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: yakra on July 24, 2017, 07:37:20 pm
I remain in favor of dropping them entirely, as more trouble than they're worth.
I won't necessarily take this option off the table just yet either.
But I am content to just kick the can down the road for now.
I have some other things to take care of in the near term, but my plans -- especially when it comes to NY -- are to focus more on getting usanyp ready.
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: mariethefoxy on July 24, 2017, 08:41:17 pm
I only found one sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.1140502,-72.3678057,3a,41y,252.23h,88.7t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1sMy3yrGsXrn7pBYe9IlREgg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!9m2!1b1!2i41) for NY25Trk. Dunno if that's really enough to lobby for including it...


The google street view is out of date, there are decent amount of signage for it in the field nowadays. I was planning an eastern long island trip later this summer, I can provide photos of more assemblies on NY 25 Truck if you want. The County route pentagon is on top of it, for what its worth.
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: yakra on July 25, 2017, 01:05:07 am
I'd be interested in seeing what there is, especially at the Moores Lane / North Road intersection.
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: mariethefoxy on July 25, 2017, 02:09:46 am
Heres a screenshot from Bing Maps' street view which shows the intersection of Moores Lane and North Road, theres a Truck NY 25 shield here, but no sign to turn down Moores lane to continue to regular 25.
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: froggie on July 25, 2017, 01:23:34 pm
Quote from: Jim
I remain in favor of dropping them entirely, as more trouble than they're worth.

My first question before going this route is this:  do these truck routes have independent segments or are they completely concurrent with other routes?  If the answer is they have independent segments, my second question would be if these truck routes are state-maintained, or at least maintenance-contracted in a manner similar to state touring routes).  If that second question is also a yes, then I would include them.  If either or both question are a "no", then I'm with Jim.
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: yakra on July 25, 2017, 05:10:34 pm
Quote
do these truck routes have independent segments or are they completely concurrent with other routes?
Some of each.     Of the ones already in the HB...
At least some independent:
NY5TrkSch NY14TrkGen NY19TrkBro NY29TrkSar NY298TrkSyr
completely concurrent:
NY9PTrkSar NY30TrkSch

The NY25Trk routes upthread have some independent segments. I haven't looked into the other examples in this thread, the GitHub issue, or wherever else.

Quote
would be if these truck routes are state-maintained,
There are some segments that are not state-maintained, AFAIK.

Quote
or at least maintenance-contracted in a manner similar to state touring routes
I don't know enough about the specifics of how NY operates to be able to answer this.
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: mariethefoxy on July 25, 2017, 11:21:21 pm
There is a segment independant from Suffolk County 48 where it turns back to meet NY 25, Suffolk County 48 continues along North Road to the Riverhead Town line where it becomes a town maintained road.

Once agian im planning a day trip out to eastern Long Island and Shelter Island. I can drive along Truck 25 to find any sort of signage to help it get included into the NY state system.
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: vdeane on July 29, 2017, 07:06:47 pm
Quote
or at least maintenance-contracted in a manner similar to state touring routes
I don't know enough about the specifics of how NY operates to be able to answer this.
However it's done, it's different from the local-maintained section of touring routes because Main Office does know about and maintain data on those (such as the pavement rating) but does not for the truck routes.
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: Duke87 on July 30, 2017, 10:52:03 pm
I remain in favor of dropping them entirely, as more trouble than they're worth.

Seconded, and I support this by pointing out that as far as NYSDOT is concerned, truck routes do not officially exist as part of the touring route system. Where they are signed, they are signed because a county or municipality decided to put signs up for one.
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: Jim on July 30, 2017, 10:58:46 pm
At the least, I'd like to move these out of the long-active and otherwise well-documented usany system and into a devel system (usanyb for "bannered"?) where they can live until we decide to dump them or find a way to definitively complete them.
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: yakra on July 31, 2017, 03:31:09 am
I'd downvote that; I don't like the clutter of creating unnecessary (or questionably necessary) new systems. If these routes are going to be moribund or have an uncertain future or status, let's let them be moribund in usany.
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: vdeane on November 26, 2017, 08:56:40 pm
Some others we're missing:
-Truck NY 14 (Elmira): Clemens Center Parkway, Grand Central Avenue, McCanns Boulevard
-Truck NY 17C (Waverly): Broad Street Extension, William Donnelly Indus Parkway (not sure if this one counts; Bing streetside only shows "Truck Route" signs, not "Truck NY 17C" or "Truck Route NY 17C", but I've heard Region 9 refer to it as Truck NY 17C before)
-Truck NY 27 (Brooklyn): 10th Street, McDonald Avenue, Church Avenue
-Truck NY 32 (Glens Falls): Oakland Avenue
-Truck NY 340: William Street, Main Street
To update: I did not see any Truck NY 14 signs in Elmira when I was there, just the generic "truck route" signs.  The designation may have been manufactured by Google.  I also saw many "Alt NY 17" signs still up - in many cases, better signed than NY 427.  The Lowman Crossover also has these signs.
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: vdeane on January 14, 2018, 07:51:08 pm
Another update: "Truck NY 17C" has the same story as Truck NY 14.  I did, however, find a Truck NY 96 in Candor along Mill Street and NY 96B.  There are also "Truck To NY 23" signs on NY 12 NB approaching Norwich directing trucks to CR 32B and CR 32; I am unsure if this is something that counts, as I did not see any evidence on NY 12 that this is any different from the "Truck US 9/NY 50 south" situation in Saratoga Springs, but I didn't poke around too much either (downside of finding it at the end of a trip), and there isn't current street view there.
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: rickmastfan67 on January 20, 2018, 10:37:13 pm
Another update: "Truck NY 17C" has the same story as Truck NY 14.  I did, however, find a Truck NY 96 in Candor along Mill Street and NY 96B.  There are also "Truck To NY 23" signs on NY 12 NB approaching Norwich directing trucks to CR 32B and CR 32; I am unsure if this is something that counts, as I did not see any evidence on NY 12 that this is any different from the "Truck US 9/NY 50 south" situation in Saratoga Springs, but I didn't poke around too much either (downside of finding it at the end of a trip), and there isn't current street view there.

Ones posted with 'TO' text don't count.  Otherwise, we'd have 2 different random 'TO PA-51' truck routes in the Downtown Pittsburgh area, as one is posted on the Parkway North @ the I-279/579 interchange, and there's one posted thru Downtown itself.  All because of the Liberty Bridge.
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: vdeane on January 27, 2018, 03:55:22 pm
I'm debating whether it's worth a detour on my next clinching trip to verify that all the signage indeed has TO banners or not.  Right now I'm leaning no, since I saw no additional signage for it (and nothing of any kind on SB NY 12), which one would think there would be if it was actually a truck route of the kind that are included here.
Title: Re: NY 25 Truck missing
Post by: vdeane on August 23, 2020, 11:29:51 am
The database is missing NY 25 Truck which is a truck route on the North Fork of Long Island to get around a low railroad overpass in Mattituck. It is well signed out there in the field.

Going West to East

40.9673 -72.5627 NY25_W (Western Terminus)
40.9864 -72.5759 SoundAve_W
40.9881 -72.5519 SoundAve_E (begin multiplex with Suffolk CR48)
41.0457,-72.4659 HenrysLn
41.07530,-72.42534 BosAve
41.1104,-72.3765 MooresLn
41.113997, -72.368059 NY25_E
I wanted to follow up on this since I was poking around in street view in the area.  There are plenty of signs on CR 48 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9877816,-72.5544453,3a,75y,84.08h,79.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seb7R1E5aoQnURdlijLPnoA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), but I couldn't see any for the portion of the route further west.