Australia

[Duke87]

I don't see it as any sort of formal integration so much as just that all of ACT's numbers match the NSW number that ends at the border. This isn't in and of itself anything special: in most cases in Australia where a route crosses any state line it has the same number on both sides (though it may switch between N/A/B/C). WA achieves 100% match with neighboring states as well.
Furthermore, the name of the system is "New South Wales B Roads"... someone looking for a B road in ACT isn't necessarily going to think to look there with that name.

Personally, I see two reasonable paths here. One is for ausb to be left as all one nationwide system the same as was done with ausm, ausa, and ausn. But if it's going to be split up by state, ACT needs to be split into its own system too for the sake of consistency.


AUS-QLD N42:
- OK

AUS-QLD N46:
- OK

AUS-QLD N79:
- OK

AUS-QLD N83:
- QLD84_W -> WilDevRd_N (since QLD 84 is not signed north of A6)
- QLD84_E -> WilDevRd_S (since QLD 84 is not signed north of A6)
- UruSouRd -> UraSouRd

AUS-TAS N1:
- C316 needs a recenter
- C29 -> C529
- RosRd -> C305_S
- C305 -> C305_N
- C132/189 -> C132/C189 (per labeling guidelines)
- DiaRd -> DialRd

AUS-TAS N1Lau:
- OK

AUS-WA N1:
- 171.31 mile gap between EucTelRd and CocRawRd. Consider adding a couple visible points to shorten, e.g. at Mundrabilla.
- HarRd -> HarRd_S
- RavHeaHauRte_E -> RavHHRte_E or HeaHauRte_E
- HopRavRd -> ColSt
- RavHeaHauRte_W -> RavHHRte_W or HeaHauRte_W
- WA107 -> WA40
- BorBreBayRd -> BBBayRd or BorBreRd
- WA30 -> NorRd
- add point for WA30 junction at wye just north of the roundabout where the old point is (note that per signage WA 30 appears to end at N1, does not extend south of it into town)
- DenMtBarRd -> DenMBRd or MtBarRd
- ManBayRd -> ManBeaRd
- WheCoaRd -> T259_S
- add point for T259_N at Eastbourne Rd
- WigRd -> WilRd
- BroHwy -> T251_S
- GreBoyBroRd -> GreBBRd
- BlaRivDr -> T251_N
- GrimRd -> GriRd
- DonBoyBroRd -> DonBBRd
- BunOutRingRd -> BunORRd or OutRingRd or BunRingRd
- OldCoaRd_N -> T260 (and therefore OldCoaRd_S -> OldCoaRd)
- JohRd needs a recenter
- ForHwy -> WA2_S
- SawRd -> DawRd
- ManRd -> ManRd_W
- EnnAv -> ManRd_E
- SafBayRd -> WA18
- DixRd -> WA22
- PatRd -> PatRd_S
- KwiBeaRd -> T202
- CocRd -> WA12
- SpeAve -> WA14
- WA2 -> WA2/6
- BelSt -> WA55
- WA41 -> KalRd (WA41 ends at WA3 per signage, doesn't extend this far north)
- ChiRd -> T359
- point WA86 needs to be moved north to new junction
- CatRoa -> CatRd
- EneBooRd -> EneCooRd
- TriRd -> TriSt
- AjaKalRd -> T354
- 113.61 mile gap between that point and DenhamRd. Consider adding visible points to shorten.
- WA129 -> WA142
- RoePtSamRd -> PSRoeRd or PtSamRd
- 353.56 mile visible distance between WA138 and BrooHwy. Can definitely add some points in here.
- 136.88 mile visible distance between DerHwy and ForRd_Fit. Could use additional points to shorten gap.
- 106.08 mile visible distance between ForRd_Fit and YiyComRd. There are opportunities to add points.
- WA5 -> TanRd (this road becomes NT5 but does not have a number in WA)
- 193.79 mile visible distance between N96 and VicHwy. There are opportunities to add points.

[si404]

Saying ACT should be lumped into NSW is like saying DC 295 is part of MD 295.

It would be saying such if:

• MD didn't have any other state roads that end at the border / DC had any roads that did extend to a natural terminus
• MD and DC 295 were signed identically
• MD and DC planned their road numbering as one unit and maps for a recentish renumbering of MD's included DC with even a special map of just the capital city hosted on MD's website

So, in other words, I'm saying absolutely nothing like that!

I don't see it as any sort of formal integration so much as just that all of ACT's numbers match the NSW number that ends at the border. This isn't in and of itself anything special: in most cases in Australia where a route crosses any state line it has the same number on both sides (though it may switch between N/A/B/C).

That's special enough that NSW mentioned where it happens in their documents: see attached below, and note that the border where it happens most consistently isn't mentioned. And almost all of these are where former national roads cross the border and they just didn't change the number (there's a few places where one state wanted to, but changed their mind so that the number didn't change at the state line - but this isn't that.

There's actually a fair few places where the state networks of B roads/whatever don't join up at the border. Even the VIC A79/NSW B79 one that gets pretty close.

WA achieves 100% match with neighboring states as well.

Err. No. The two major border crossings, where NT and SA have renumbered the nationally-numbered N1 as A1 (and WA not changed a thing) work, but NT has 3 roads (B96 that was formerly N96, C5 and C4) that end at the border with no numbering from WA.

Furthermore, the name of the system is "New South Wales B Roads"... someone looking for a B road in ACT isn't necessarily going to think to look there with that name.

Should cheh be renamed as it includes a route in Liechtenstein? armm which has two routes in Azerbaijan (Artsakh)? What about those state/provincial highways that cross borders into another state should New York State Highways be 'Connecticut, New York and Pennsylvania State Highways'?

And, going back to Australia - should this route be its own system 'ausnsw'?

[si404]

AUS-ACT B52:- not signed, delete

September 2020 GSV shows it signed. Plus the B23 as A23 (which is a recent development in ACT, with the A designation continuing south) - though looking, it seems like pretty much every other sign have N23 (and nothing for the B52).

[yakra]

a small quantity of isolated route pieces != a system's worth of route designations

[Duke87]

The extension of QLD2 into NSW is indigestiony and echoes an outstanding argument about how to handle similar situations in the US (see: NY PA44 et. al.). I certainly do not think it belongs in its own system, but whether it counts as part of QLD2 and should be mapped at all is... bears some research. We'll revisit that when we get to it.

Anyway, meantime, here's the rest of ausn and ausnb, ready for activation once all addressed:

AUS-WA N94:
- HinHillNRd -> HHNorRd or HinHillRd
- WA120 -> WA50
- CalSt -> ClaSt

AUS-WA N95:
- WA50_S -> WA50
- TD359 -> TD359_S
- add point for TD359_N at second Chittering Rd intersection (bit south of Bindoon)
- WA120 -> DPBinRd or DewPoolRd
- WA50_N -> BBTooRd
- need to realign around Milling onto new bypass
- WarEastRd -> WanEastRd
- YanNinRd -> YalNinRd
- WA49 -> GolHwy

AUS-WA N96:
- does not appear to have a signed number in WA, delete (this also means renaming the N96 point on N1)

AUS-VIC N1AltMel:
- GipHwy -> MR180

AUS-WA N94AltKal:
- WA49 -> GolHwy_N


But wait, there's more! Have ausqldmr:

AUS-QLD MR2:
- OK

AUS-QLD MR5:
- need to add point for T7 near the beginning
- are the ramps to M7 part of MR5? I can't find anything particularly suggesting they are. I would truncate to A3.

And a general comment... should ausqldmr be tier 5? ausvicmr is.

[Duke87]

Full review of ausntb. Note that I am deferring entirely to the quoted Reddit post on page 8 for what designations are appropriate and not paying mind to what is shown signed in GMSV, per prior discussion. This effectively exempts NT from the rule that routes need to be signed to be included but it wouldn't be the first remote territory we just brushed that rule aside for (one of the others, coincidentally enough, is Canada's NT).

AUS-NT B1:
- RyaBendRd -> RyaBendRd_W
- NT11 -> B11
- SavWay -> RyaBendRd_E

AUS-NT B4:
- OK

AUS-NT B6:
- OK

AUS-NT B11:
- OK

AUS-NT B20:
- OK

AUS-NT B21:
- A36 -> B36

AUS-NT B30:
- OK

AUS-NT B34:
- FinRd -> FinnRd
- ChaPntRd_W -> ChaPtRd_W
- ChaPntRd_E -> ChaPtRd_E

AUS-NT B36:
- OK

AUS-NT B96:
- CamSta looks like it might need to be moved north a bit to where the main turnoff is.
- N80 -> C80

[si404]

- WA120 -> WA50

That seems to be a signage mistake, with all the signs at WA50 and WA30 (I can't read the crappy GSV at WA40) calling that road WA120.

AUS-VIC N1AltMel:
- GipHwy -> MR180

MR180 has been downgraded according to not being on paper, and patched signs elsewhere on its route. I did the reverse of the requested change when doing Melbourne's Metropolitan Route system. I can re-add it, but that seems to be a ausqldmr issue, rather than an ausnb issue.

And a general comment... should ausqldmr be tier 5? ausvicmr is.

Different systems doing different things.

Brisbane's MetRoads (like the former Sydney system) are designated through routes in the city - if anything, they are higher status than the state routes nearby (and much more like the tier 3 A/N roads) rather than the same level.

Melbourne's Metropolitan Routes are somewhat like the state highway system (though it's more that they stole the blue shields because there wasn't a pre-alphanumeric state system) - arguably they could be tier 4, but where they have become Alphanumeric routes, it has mostly been C Roads rather than B Roads. OK, some did become A and M roads, and some B roads, but mostly they have become C roads. I'd expect this system to slowly disappear as they take out more of the important routes and give them alphanumeric numbers (wikipedia recently changed some, but there's zero sources even when I go looking for them).

[Duke87]

- WA120 -> WA50

That seems to be a signage mistake, with all the signs at WA50 and WA30 (I can't read the crappy GSV at WA40) calling that road WA120.

Oh it's absolutely WA 120 south of WA115/Northam. West/north of there... yeah I see the contradicting signs at the junction south of Toodyay.

WA 120 definitely does not go anywhere past there at least.

AUS-VIC N1AltMel:
- GipHwy -> MR180

MR180 has been downgraded according to not being on paper, and patched signs elsewhere on its route. I did the reverse of the requested change when doing Melbourne's Metropolitan Route system. I can re-add it, but that seems to be a ausqldmr issue, rather than an ausnb issue.

I'm going purely by having seen a sign on GMSV. Am okay with leaving as is if it no longer officially exists. What is your paper source for this? Victoria's GIS doesn't show any of the MR designations.

[vdeane]

And a general comment... should ausqldmr be tier 5? ausvicmr is.

I would think so, for consistency.  The hierarchy is country -> state -> city, after all.

Speaking of route tiers, wouldn't it make sense for A Routes and National Routes to be Tier 2 with their Auxiliaries at Tier 3?  That's how it works with US Routes and the Trans-Canada, which they are arguably most similar to as there is no multi-national system involving Australia like there is for Europe, Asia, and Central America.

[michih]

Thanks for the mega update which brings us to 303 active systems

I wonder about system names:
- ausnb is called "Australia N Roads (Bannered)" in the update entry but is called "Australia N Roads (Alt)" in HB
- ausqldmr is called "Brisbane MetRoads". Should it be Metroads instead? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metroad

[si404]

I would think so, for consistency.  The hierarchy is country -> state -> city, after all.

These are State Routes, that happen to be city-related and were numbered and given different shields because they were more important and used as through roads (url=http://www.expressway.online/gallery/roads/qld/numbered/metroads/images/opener.jpg]sign marking them out[/url]. In fact, most of them were part of the National Network before (which, like in the US, is managed by the states but given money by the national government) and became M roads after. I'm treating them like R1 in Adelaide and the bannered national routes - because that's effectively what they were.

Speaking of route tiers, wouldn't it make sense for A Routes and National Routes to be Tier 2 with their Auxiliaries at Tier 3?  That's how it works with US Routes and the Trans-Canada, which they are arguably most similar to as there is no multi-national system involving Australia like there is for Europe, Asia, and Central America.

I've treated ausa and ausn as continental systems, putting them on the same tier as eure and asiah.

Am okay with leaving as is if it no longer officially exists. What is your paper source for this? Victoria's GIS doesn't show any of the MR designations.

Several secondary sources not having it listed as an active route, with some calling it decommissioned. Nothing definitive (as all unofficial), but with the patches over shields at the other end of the route, pretty clear that the sign on the Princes Highway is just out of date. The GIS is annoying with not having the Melbourne routes on, but it did help me confirm that the guy editing wikipedia and OSM with lots of fishy information was talking nonsense.

[si404]

Anyway, thanks to Duke87 for the reviews. We've got (over 5 systems) 25747.96 miles activated in just a few months.

And, obviously, it couldn't have been done without Bickendan's hard work making route 1. A truly annoying route to make - from big empty bits where no one lives (including dirt tracks) to routes in dense cities, it's very varied route - but above all it's long. The 3330.17 miles of N1 in Western Australia is the longest chopped routes on TM by a nearly 700 miles (and there's only 11 routes over 1500 miles, which this is twice as long as). At 52kB it's the second largest .wpt file (thankfully the empty desert has some nice long straights). By my reckoning the 8600-odd miles of Highway 1 makes up just over a third (33.7%) of the active systems in Australia (and I've taken out B1 in SA as its not active) and, while its tweaked, most of it is still pretty much unchanged.

[michih]

There are currently eleven systems in preview (dunno how large compared to the active systems and their 25,000 miles). Are there more systems to come or are more or less all TM relevant routes already covered now?

[si404]

Are there more systems to come or are more or less all TM relevant routes already covered now?

The only other potential systems are a couple of tourist ones, C roads in Victoria and D roads in South Australia (the D stands for 'dirt'). Unless I do a select freeway system that covers some of the missing routes in Sydney and Brisbane, as well as overlaying the Perth network. But certainly, with Western Australia's State Highways, all the major routes are at least preview.

[Bickendan]

Anyway, thanks to Duke87 for the reviews. We've got (over 5 systems) 25747.96 miles activated in just a few months.

And, obviously, it couldn't have been done without Bickendan's hard work making route 1. A truly annoying route to make - from big empty bits where no one lives (including dirt tracks) to routes in dense cities, it's very varied route - but above all it's long. The 3330.17 miles of N1 in Western Australia is the longest chopped routes on TM by a nearly 700 miles (and there's only 11 routes over 1500 miles, which this is twice as long as). At 52kB it's the second largest .wpt file (thankfully the empty desert has some nice long straights). By my reckoning the 8600-odd miles of Highway 1 makes up just over a third (33.7%) of the active systems in Australia (and I've taken out B1 in SA as its not active) and, while its tweaked, most of it is still pretty much unchanged.

Honestly, the biggest nightmare were the A/M switches in NSW and the educated guesses as to routing and exit placement in Sydney and Melbourne.