canqc: Quebec Provincial Highways

[Jim]

The site update running right now will promote canqc to preview status.  Thanks to mapcat for getting the first complete draft together.  I believe it's ready for review.  Even if you do not plan on contributing to a comprehensive review, please report any problems you find as you peruse the routes or add them to your list file.

[mapcat]

Oscar put in a lot of work too and was very helpful when I had questions. After discussing a things with him, I still have a few questions and would appreciate input from everyone else.

First off, I did not use Ave or Blvd as abbreviations in waypoints because they don't appear on signs that way. When it's abbreviated, Av is used for Avenue ( 1 2 3 ) and Boul for Boulevard ( 1 2 ). This is consistent with Canada Post addressing guidelines for French addresses. Unfortunately, those guidelines don't have an abbreviation for Montée, so I went with Mtée (well, Mtee), which is how it appears on signs ( 1 2 3 ).  Oscar prefers Mon, which I've never been able to find on a sign. Does anyone else have an opinion? If we're ok with these, I'll make the few changes needed for the Autoroute and TCH files so they match the abbreviations in the canqc set.

Also, I didn't draft QC136, even though it's signed from A-73, mainly because it's not signed anywhere else, making the opposite end difficult to determine. Anyone see a need for it?

Lastly, I think this is how Québec signs truck routes. Since I'm unsure, I left QC112TrkShe out but can easily add it. That's the only instance I've found so far, but am interested in knowing about others.

[mapcat]

One other question: what should the A-15 spur to QC117 in St-Jérôme be called? The QC117 waypoint for it is currently "A-15Spur" but we should probably use something else.

[Jim]

A minor point I noticed is that QC138Mon's point at A-55 is labeled "A-55(181)", but since it's the only place it meets A-55, it can simply be "A-55".

[mapcat]

A minor point I noticed is that QC138Mon's point at A-55 is labeled "A-55(181)", but since it's the only place it meets A-55, it can simply be "A-55".

Thanks for catching that. Fixed in my file.

[oscar]

First off, I did not use Ave or Blvd as abbreviations in waypoints because they don't appear on signs that way. When it's abbreviated, Av is used for Avenue ( 1 2 3 ) and Boul for Boulevard ( 1 2 ). This is consistent with Canada Post addressing guidelines for French addresses. Unfortunately, those guidelines don't have an abbreviation for Montée, so I went with Mtée (well, Mtee), which is how it appears on signs ( 1 2 3 ).  Oscar prefers Mon, which I've never been able to find on a sign. Does anyone else have an opinion?

If I can briefly explain mine -- my initial reaction to seeing Mtee in a waypoint label was "WTF?", not what you like to see from an abbreviation. Av  and Boul, as well as Prom and Ch, are familiar abbreviations outside QC, in bilingual signage in neighboring provinces. But Montée seems to be a road type unique to Quebec, so you don't recall seeing an abbreviation for that in ON and NB road signs, for example. I suspect Mtee is an unfamiliar and confusing abbreviation outside QC. Even in QC, I don't recall seeing Mtee on its road signs, except in tiny type on some street blades (on the BGSes I've seen so far, it's spelled out without abbreviation). Our default is to abbreviate by truncating to the first three letters (with some exceptions for standard and familiar abbreviations like Blvd or Pkwy), which in this case yields the somewhat more intuitive Mon.

Also, I didn't draft QC136, even though it's signed from A-73, mainly because it's not signed anywhere else, making the opposite end difficult to determine. Anyone see a need for it?

It is signed, even if only at one end. Not as good as typical Quebec signage, but travelers can see the route number somewhere on the route, and people who've seen that route number might wonder if they don't see it in the HB. In some of my jurisdictions, some routes are signed only at one end, and they're included in the HB anyway. So I would add QC 136.

[mapcat]

It is signed, even if only at one end. Not as good as typical Quebec signage, but travelers can see the route number somewhere on the route, and people who've seen that route number might wonder if they don't see it in the HB. In some of my jurisdictions, some routes are signed only at one end, and they're included in the HB anyway. So I would add QC 136.

OK, where do I put the eastern end? The Boul Champlain route seems to be accepted by all sources, but the government doesn't specify what happens to it past the ferry. OSM and Google wrap it around Vieux-Québec, but disagree past that. Bing maps don't show the route at all.

[7/8]

I personally think Mon is easier to understand than Mtee, though I think both are reasonable.

I just wanted to say thank you to mapcat and oscar for working on this, since this was one of the few systems I was really looking forward to! I was worried this one wouldn't be done for another year or so, but this news just made my day

[yakra]

Also, I didn't draft QC136, even though it's signed from A-73, mainly because it's not signed anywhere else, making the opposite end difficult to determine. Anyone see a need for it?

According to the GeoBase 7.0 shapefiles, Rue Notre-Dame.
I haven't checked any other sources.

[mapcat]

According to the GeoBase 7.0 shapefiles, Rue Notre-Dame.
I haven't checked any other sources.

That source is enough. Thanks. It's in.

[oscar]

To follow up on my earlier post on abbreviations: I drove today, in addition to part of A-40 yesterday, substantial parts of A-30, A-10, A-55, A-73, and A-20. Several of the BGSes, and smaller signs on overpasses, said Montee _____. None abbreviated that as Mtee, only one might've used Mon (not sure whether that was an abbreviation for Montee, or something else entirely). The signs along those Autoroutes used familiar abbreviations like Av, Boul, Ch, and Prom. But no abbrevs for Montee.

[mapcat]

That isn't a strong argument for using "Mon" over any other abbreviation. Yes, like they do for Avenue and Chemin, they write out Montée on signs (most street blades, too). No surprises there. But we have to abbreviate. Which is why I went with the abbreviation preferred by the people who make the signs, and seen by people who use the signs. If you see a sign that says Mon, please take a picture.

[Jim]

For QC138Mon, I think the visible point BoulStMau_W might be a candidate to be replaced with one at Boul. des Chenaux, which is accessible from A-40 (and which is what I took on my short loop through Trois-Rivieres a few years back).

[mapcat]

For QC138Mon, I think the visible point BoulStMau_W might be a candidate to be replaced with one at Boul. des Chenaux, which is accessible from A-40 (and which is what I took on my short loop through Trois-Rivieres a few years back).

No reason we can't have both points. It's added.

[oscar]

That isn't a strong argument for using "Mon" over any other abbreviation. Yes, like they do for Avenue and Chemin, they write out Montée on signs (most street blades, too). No surprises there. But we have to abbreviate. Which is why I went with the abbreviation preferred by the people who make the signs, and seen by people who use the signs. If you see a sign that says Mon, please take a picture.

As I see it, Transports Quebec seems not to have an established abbreviation, else I would've seen it on the Autoroutes I drove. The street blades seem to be a local matter, as you say there is no consistently-used abbreviation, and are hard for travelers to read at highway speeds (thus my focus on the more visible signage on the Autoroutes). The lack of a province-level official abbreviation for Montee, ISTM, leaves us free to go with the shorter and more intuitive default abbreviation Mon.

I'll be leaving Quebec tomorrow morning to get to my next stop in NB, so will not be in a position to look at street blades on my way out.

EDIT: Only one other instance of Montee spotted, no abbreviation.

It occurred to me that maybe the reason neither Transport Canada nor (as mentioned above) Canada Post don't have abbreviations for Montee, but do for other road types, is that they couldn't come up with a good abbrev and/or neither mtee nor any other abbreviation out there was widely accepted enough or understood well enough by the general public. Normally, we abbreviate words longer than four letters by truncating to the first three letters, unless there is a widely known and well-accepted alternative like Hwy or Pkwy. (For example, when did the Hawaii routes, I was told to abbreviate Wharf as "Wha", even though probably nobody uses else that abbreviation.) There may be no such alternative abbreviation of Montee, and unless there is something wrong with the default abbrev Mon, we might as well go with that.