OR 39 south end, and CA 139 and 161

[oscar]

I drove the three routes yesterday, crossing briefly into south central Oregon.

How sure are we that the state line is at the CA 139/161 junction (where we've placed the OR 39 south endpoint)? The Welcome to California sign is a few hundred feet north of the junction (Oregon's welcome sign is a little farther north), and the California welcome sign is next to a pavement change visible in satellite views. It also seems to be closer to, but still a little south of, the 42nd parallel.

Moreover, driving CA 161 west of the junction with 139, there are no signs indicating that any part of that highway crosses into Oregon. Such signs would be helpful, for example, for people under court order or other legal requirements not to leave California.

So I'm convinced that the online mapping mis-maps the California/Oregon border. This means adjusting the endpoints of OR 39 and CA 161, and also that CA 161 can be mapped in a single route file rather than split into a western segment in California and an eastern segment in Oregon.

Any thoughts?

[Bickendan]

I may have to reach out to ODOT and see what they have to say about where OR 39 and CA 139 terminate.
Real quickly, I threw together a mockup route with two points, one at the CA 139/161/OR 39 point as marked in OSM, and one at 42 North.
The junction, and the OR/CA border, is at 41.998268 North, and 42.000000 North is .12 miles north of that... which, if that is the correct location of the border, places CA 161 firmly in California.
On the other hand, CA 161 is on State Line Road, and the CA/OR (and NV/OR) border is not a straight affair in the best case to begin with...

[mapmikey]

FWIW, 1940 and 1950 County maps on both sides show CA 161 on the state line...

[oscar]

On the other hand, CA 161 is on State Line Road, and the CA/OR (and NV/OR) border is not a straight affair in the best case to begin with...

Of course, at least the west end of State Line Rd. clearly is not on the state line, bending south away from the line.

I might hold off on this until I'm back home, and can look at Caltrans' 2002 paper logs (no more recent or online versions available) for CA 139 and CA 161.

[Bickendan]

One thing I noticed as I was driving down to Corvallis from Portland today: County line signs are offset from where the county lines actually are. For example, I-205 crosses the Washington/Clackamas County line at SW 65th Ave, but instead of placing the sign dirctly under the overpass, it's before/after the overpass, depending on the direction.
Similarly, the Marion/Linn County line is in the center of the Santiam River, but the sign isn't midspan; the Linn/Benton line is in the Willamette River on ORH 210 (the bridge between US 20 and OR 34 in Corvallis), but the sign is on the eastern bridgehead.

I'm thinking that ODOT and CalTrans placing the stateline signs north of the interchange is a similar idea, and to simplify signage at the CA 161 junction, the signed stateline is north of State Line Rd while the actual state line is on State Line Rd (and CA 161).

And like you noted, this doesn't apply to the western end of CA 161/State Line Rd.

[oscar]

I've noticed the offsets of signs from their actual locations. But ISTM that Oregon would not let California post its welcome sign on the Oregon side of CA 161, even if the state line ran through the intersection so there had to be an offset. Rather, it would insist that the sign be placed on the California (south) side of the intersection. There is room on that side of the intersection.

[Bickendan]

Email sent to ODOT.

I should ask them what the intended signage will be when ODOT finalizes the OR 99/ORH 1W and Delta Highway swap within Eugene in 2019.

[Bickendan]

Short answer is ODOT isn't sure where the border is without doing any official survey...

[Bickendan]

Long answer:

To Whom this May Concern:
 
I am a volunteer with the mapping hobby site Travel Mapping (http://tm.teresco.org/?u=null&), formally Clinched Highways Mapping (http://c-map.mplex.com), and I gather, map, and maintain the data for the Oregon data sets (Interstates, US Highways, Oregon Routes, and soon the internal Oregon Highways).

One of my colleagues brought up that the lat/long coordinates we use for the southern terminus of OR 39, currently shared with California SR 139 and 161, might be incorrect. We would like clarification and where to find this information.

Currently, our data has the Oregon/California border running along State Line Road, which is CA 161, putting the terminal points where the three routes appear to meet. According to the in-field signage my colleague saw doing field checks on the California highway dataset, it appears the border is little further north of this intersection, suggesting that OR 39 does not meet CA 161 at all, and that CA 161 is firmly and wholly within California, instead of straddling the border for a few miles.

Online maps also disagree where the border is located: Google shows the border just south of State Line Road, putting CA 161 completely within Oregon for its eastern end. Yahoo, Mapquest, Bing, and OpenStreetMap all show the border within State Line Rd (only Bing does not show State Line Rd signed as CA 161).
 
To futher complicate the issue, another colleague says that 1940s and 1950s county maps (he did not specify if it was Klamath County or Siskiyou County) shows CA 161 on the border, not to the north or south of it, on the approach to CA 139 and OR 39.

Thank you for your time and assistance,

Sincerely,

Christopher Steig

Mr. Thomas,
We received an Ask ODOT question concerning the location of State Line Rd. in relation to the Oregon/California border.  I am hoping that your group will have the data needed to answer this.
Our data shows Hwy 426 (OR39) ends at the Oregon/California border, however we do not have the detailed information needed to determine if State Line Rd. (CA-161) is north, south, or coincident with the State border.  I’ve attached a visual of the area in question which includes road line work and state boundary as currently depicted by the GIS layers.
 
Would someone in your group be able to look into this Ask ODOT request and reply to Christopher?
 
If there is another contact for this information please let me know.
Thank you,
Diana E Mann
TransInfo Program Coordinator
Road Inventory and Classification Services (RICS) Unit
Transportation Data Section

(attached .png and .pdf uploaded to my server:
http://bickenland.lonaf.com/Maps/ODOT/StateLineRd.png
http://bickenland.lonaf.com/Maps/ODOT/5B-2-13-Design-000.pdf

Christopher,
 
As you can see from the email chain, we have been searching for the answer to your questions.
 
First, the placement of a sign does not determine where the Oregon / California border is located.  Signs are often placed in the general area where needed, but they should never be used for any kind of accurate measurement.  Example, it may be impractical to place border signage exactly on the state border if it falls within a paved cross street.
 
Second,  we do know the that OR 39 terminates at the Oregon / California border, and not necessarily where the 3 routes meet. 
 
The one question remains as to where is State Line Road (CA 161) in relation to the Oregon / California border.  We have researched this question with all our the available data. The attached 1935 ODOT Right of Way map 5B-2-13 shows the centerline of State Line Rd to be approximately 10 feet North of the State Line.   But, the attachment also shows 1930 railroad map shows the centerline of the State Line Road to be approximately 6.2 feet South of the State Line.  The only true way to know the location of State Line Road in relation to the Oregon / California border is to have a land survey performed in this area.  We have been unable to find a land survey in this area to help answer this question.
 
Please call me if you would like to discuss this further.
 
Sincerely,
 
 
Joseph R. Thomas, PLS
Oregon Department of Transportation
Geometronics Manager / Chief of Surveys /
Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) Program Manager

[yakra]

as currently depicted by the GIS layers

Wonder what we can find for shapefiles for both OR and CA...

[Bickendan]

I talked to someone from CalTrans on three phone today. They have the border on the centerline of CA 161.
Our data is correct as is.

[Bickendan]

Oscar, any other thoughts before I mark this as solved?

[oscar]

Go ahead. I checked Caltrans' 2002 paper route logs, and its latest online bridge logs. Both have CA 139 ending at CA 161, at a point coinciding with the Oregon state line. So at least the OR 39 and CA 139 files are good.

I'm unsure about splitting CA 161's route file into separate California and Oregon sections, given that the entire route appears to be at least partially in California. But un-splitting that route is probably more trouble than its worth, especially since I'll be having eye surgery tomorrow morning.

[Bickendan]

It's a splitting-hairs issue of having those ~three miles of westbound CA 161 technically being in Oregon. I'm happy with the OR CA161 myself.