frad/fram: France Routes Départementales / Routes Métropolitaines

[michih]

Three letter abbreviations so Yvl/HdS for 78/92?

For IDF:
Paris = Par = FRA-75
Seine-et-Marne = SeM = FRA-77
Yvelines =Yvl = FRA-78
Essonne = Ess = FRA-91
Hauts-de-Seine = HdS = FRA-92
Seine-Saint-Denis = SSD = FRA-93
Val-de-Marne = VdM = FRA-94
Val-d'Oise = VdO = FRA-95

I don't know whether we would have a duplicate name anywhere. It doesn't matter as long as they are not neighboring departments ending up with Abc/Abc labels
Let's have a try!

[yakra]

Ah ok, departments not regions. A smaller entity. In the US there are some routes ending at county lines; those are just truncated to 3 letters.
http://travelmapping.net/hb/index.php?units=miles&u=yakra&r=ny.norstapkwy
http://travelmapping.net/hb/?units=miles&u=yakra&r=ny.gracenpkwy

[si404]

There are 18 regions but almost 100 departments.

Currently exactly 100.

[michih]

In the US there are some routes ending at county lines; those are just truncated to 3 letters.

yep, that's the way we should go - and hope that there are no duplicates.

[yakra]

yep, that's the way we should go - and hope that there are no duplicates.

If there are, we can borrow the "either add a 4th letter to a 3-letter part of one of the labels, or choose 3 different letters for that label" rule.

[si404]

There can be duplicates, just as long as they don't both share a bordering department. I think there might be one in NAQ that could have a slight issue, but other than that, we're fine.

[michih]

The first system, Île-de-France Routes Départementales (fraidf) will be "in devel" with the next site update. 109 routes of Département Yvelines (ISO-3166-2 code: FR-78) and 1 route of Département Val-d’Oise (FR-95). The department numbers are used as banner.

[yakra]

I see fraidfd.csv lines like
fraidfd;FRA-IDF;D115;Yvelines;Hou;Houdan;fraidf.d011578hou;
This would result in .list lines like FRA-IDF D115YvelinesHou D61 IDF/CVL
Additionally, The DB field for Banner only allows 6 characters.
Was this needed for some kind of disambiguaton?

Are route numbers ever duplicated in different departments in the same region? If not...
• Department names could be moved to the city field, getting more detailed (E.G. "Houdan, Yvelines") as needed.
• Department numbers as a "banner" within the filename could be nixed. IMO these are less user friendly, being smushed right up against the route number, and counterintuitive for those of us who like to access a route in the HB by typing its URL (and r= argument) directly into the browser address bar.

Somehow I forgot the answer was Yes long enough to type all that out.
fraidfd;FRA-IDF;D142;Yvelines;;;fraidf.d014278;
fraidfd;FRA-IDF;D142;Val-d’Oise;;;fraidf.d014295;
These two can be concatenated into a single route.

I should rephrase:
Are route numbers ever duplicated in different departments in the same region, other than as a single route crossing department boundaries?

[michih]

I see fraidfd.csv lines like
fraidfd;FRA-IDF;D115;Yvelines;Hou;Houdan;fraidf.d011578hou;
This would result in .list lines like FRA-IDF D115YvelinesHou D61 IDF/CVL

No, it's crap. I forgot to think first 

It should be read:

fraidfd;FRA-IDF;D115;78;Hou;Houdan;fraidf.d011578hou;
And have .list lines like FRA-IDF D11578Hou D61 IDF/CVL

I don't like it though.

Would this work?

fraidfd;FRA-IDF;D115;-78;Hou;Houdan;fraidf.d011578hou;
And have .list lines like FRA-IDF D115-78Hou D61 IDF/CVL

Thoughts?

Somehow I forgot the answer was Yes long enough to type all that out.
fraidfd;FRA-IDF;D142;Yvelines;;;fraidf.d014278;
fraidfd;FRA-IDF;D142;Val-d’Oise;;;fraidf.d014295;
These two can be concatenated into a single route.

I thought that I should spilt it because it's a dep. border but from a region point of view... I could merge it but I think it would not work with our wpt file names where the last 2 digits refer to the dep. number.
@Si, what do you think?

I should rephrase:
Are route numbers ever duplicated in different departments in the same region, other than as a single route crossing department boundaries?

Not sure what you mean, but I think YES. Numbers are only unique within each department.

[Jim]

If I am understanding correctly, this is significantly different from anything we've done before, since the routes are being divided up by region but broken up within a region by department, even if they're the same route.  It sounds like this might be analogous to trying to get a set of country routes within New York State without treating counties as the region subdivisions.  Since numbers can be repeated in different counties, all routes would be required to have the county name specified.  And if there's a county road that crosses department borders but retains its number, it would still be broken into multiple wpts (but I assume treated as a continuous route in the _con.csv).

Assuming what I state above is correct, I don't see why the frad system is not a single system much like how we treat usai and usaus, where we still break routes across regions.  Maybe the regions play a more significant role here that means this should be 14 different systems.  If they're more like the equivalent of our U.S. state routes, but at the department region, shouldn't the departments become the regions?

[michih]

Jim, you're right and I fully agree. I also thought that we should
a) split France into 100 departments (awful) or
b) have just one frad system

In addition, I like the idea of splitting France into regions because we did the very same for other European countries with similar size: UK, Germany and Spain. Italy might be another candidate.

However, France is Si's region and he decides.


I agree that it would be nice to threat routes as a continuous route in the _con.csv if the route number is not changing at dep. borders. Any objections?

[si404]

Splitting mainland France in 94 is excessive. A single system would be huge. There's going to be very few that cross the department lines. Where it's something that just dips over the boundary, treat as if one route?

Dashes work well.

As for being something new - somewhat, I guess. We split off places like GLP, MTQ, PYF rather than did one integrated system (ditto NIR and all that). But nods is several different numbering systems and we just merged them together into one system.

[michih]

nods?

I agree that 94 regions would be awful and that a single system for mainland France only would be odd since GLP, MTQ do also have their own systems. Regions are a good compromise.
Is a compromise really best-of-both-worlds though? Maybe I mean "second-best-of-both-worlds approach." Bleah. Semantics.

[michih]

There's going to be very few that cross the department lines.

I had a quick look at Yvelines. There are 15 situations where the number is not changing at the dep. border. It's more than "very few".

Where it's something that just dips over the boundary, treat as if one route?

If you talk about "simple" dep. borders - not region borders - and we'll have one D system per region, I'm in favor of threating them as one route in _con.csv.

[si404]

Yvelines is an exception as it is half a department that split in the 60s. Therefore it forms a coherent system with the other half. This and one other are the only places where this happens.