frad/fram: France Routes Départementales / Routes Métropolitaines

[yakra]

I don't like the numeric codes. Just looks too much like part of a route number, even with a dash.
A three-letter abbreviation would be a better mnemonic, for people who'd want to look up a route, or remember what exactly a specific .list file refers to. I doubt people would want to memorize the numeric codes. I think it'd be more in line with people's expectations based on the way Route+Abbrev or Route+Banner+Abbrev have been working so far.
It just looks better!

[si404]

Eric, I think you are underestimating the French love of their two digit codes - they appear on licence plates prominently (everyone stays away from 75, and to a lesser extent the 9xs as they are Parisians who drive like maniacs), they appear as the beginning of postal codes, many are part of the culture. But other than that, your points are good.

[michih]

I'm also not happy with the numeric codes but think that Si is right. And I like these numbers more than 3-letter abbreviations made by us.

I just need to add another 30 routes and Yvelines will be done. The first out of 94 mainland departements. I think it is a good test. There is something in the HB now and we can discuss how they other departement routes should be drafted.


The "threat routes as a continuous route in the _con.csv if number does not change at departement borders" thing does not work since there can be still additional routes in different departements of the same region which are not continuously. We need an unique route name within the region and anything must be indicated as banner.

[michih]

I made a list of departement abbreviations to be used for border labels. Any objections?

We found some shp files and @yakra converted them using GISplunge.
I've added source and wpt file (output directory):

• FRA-ARA
• FRA-BFC
• FRA-BRE
• FRA-CVL
• FRA-GES
• FRA-HDF
• FRA-IDF
• FRA-NAQ
• FRA-NOR
• FRA-OCC
• FRA-PAC
• FRA-PDL

We could comment it when we find more sources. We can also copy the list(s) to a forum post and add colors.

[michih]

Yvelines is completed and I've started with Seine-Saint-Denis (departement 93) now.


N410 was downgraded to D941 in 2006. The remaining segment starts at D24 and ends at A1, see wikisara. D941 is indicated on OSM and it's confirmed by the official map. Signs do still show N410 (2018 GSV). However, there are more former N routes in Paris region which are still signed. Since we draft D routes now, I'd like to truncate N410.

Edit: Same for N301, only the ramp to A1 is still N route, rest is D901, see wikisara.

Any objections?

@Si: If nobody has objections, do you wanna deal with N410 truncation or should I do it?

[michih]

N515 was downgraded in 2006. I cannot find any sign on GSV, GM does not indicate any number, OSM just indicates it being on/off ramps of A15. wikisara indicates it being unsigned D515: 'La D515 (95) à Saint-Ouen-l'Aumône, non-signalée sur le terrain.'

I've not (yet) added it to fraidld system. No TM user has traveled it yet. @Si: Your decision.

[si404]

My next pull will have the following updates:

2019-0x-xx;France;N301;fra.n301;Route truncated at north end from D29 to D901
2019-0x-xx;France;N410;fra.n410;Route truncated at west end from A86 to D24
2019-0x-xx;France;N515;;Route deleted

[michih]

I've also checked the status of the other N routes in IDF on wikisara:

N1: will be replaced by A16 in late 2019 (leave as-is for now)
N4: extends to the next roundabout at west end
N7: Segment from A106 to AirOrly should be D7 (91 - Essone) according to wikisara
N13 (N13neu in fra folder): Only segment BlvdPer to A14 (wp no. 4) should be N13 according to wikisara. Current wp no. 4 to no. 12 should be D993
N19: will be relocated onto bypass later this year (leave as-is for now)
N188: Only A10 ramps seem to be dedicated as N188, rest should be D188, I'd fully removed N188 since there is no junction at the end of route
N192: Should still exist according to wikisara but wikipedia and OSM indicate it being downgraded to D992.
N314: Last segments have been downgraded in 2017 according to wikisara
N330: Should be extended at south end to the first A140 interchange. A140 should be truncated. Please refer to wikisara
N1013: Still exists according to wikisara but it's not on the wikipedia list. OSM indicates N1013 and D913

[bhemphill]

The N13neu point A14 does not line up with the A14 point 1.

[michih]

Thanks. It already didn't match before the latest updates by Si and me. I think that A14 wp location (@D7) is correct. @Si, let me know if I should fix it.

The problem is that the one-way D993 (former N13 which was truncated now) has two branches here. The D993 wp won't line up with A14/N113. I've not yet added D993 route at all since there are many routes in that area and their routing is quite challenging.

[michih]

The wpt files are named:

region name + ".d" + 4-digit route number + 2-digit departement index + ".wpt", e.g.:
fraidf.d001094.wpt
Île-de-France + D10 + Val-de-Marne (94)

If there are more than one route in the departement, we add the 3-digit "city" abbreviation, e.g.:
fraidf.d001094vil.wpt
Île-de-France + D10 + Val-de-Marne (94) + Villers-sur-Marne

If a route name has a prefix, it could be added at two position, e.g. for D10 (93):
fraidf.d0010e93.wpt or
fraidf.d001093e.wpt

If there are more than one route, it's like:
fraidf.d0010e93pav.wpt or
fraidf.d001093epav.wpt


Github sorts option 1 well but Windows shows all routes with route prefix first and routes without prefix below.
With option 2, all routes would be sorted subsequently on Windows. I think that Github would also keep it this way.

I'd like to have it identical for all French regions.

Should I use the first or the second option?


btw: I sort the region csv files by departements not just by route numbering for the whole region.

[yakra]

Not sure I fully understand this.
Are both of these options turning a prefix into a suffix, or...?
What does the e mean? How are these cases signed?

[michih]

Are both of these options turning a prefix into a suffix, or...?

Suffix? No suffix at all...

What does the e mean? How are these cases signed?

https://www.google.com/maps/@48.2257981,2.7083772,3a,75y,22.91h,93.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sq4rDyBwrKjo3x2Z6YR9qUg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://routes.fandom.com/wiki/Liste_des_routes_d%C3%A9partementales_du_Val-d%27Oise_(95)#Pr.C3.A9sentation

Exposant    Désignation    Exemple(s)
A    Annexe    D47A, D55A
B    Barreau de liaison    D84B
B3    Bretelle numérotée selon un numéro d'ordre    D915B3
D    Déviation    D4D
E    Embranchement    D151E, D193E
E1    Embranchement suivi d'un numéro d'ordre    D4E1, D4E3
P    Prolongement    D109P, D192P
Y    A déterminer    D922Y
Z    Ancien tracé dévié    D922Z, D927Z

I've generally skipped the "numéro d'ordre", for instance, D4E1 is just D4E.

[si404]

nods?

autocorrected nlds - it's a system that is really several systems smoothed together.

The D123E thing - the E is sort of a banner, but that's awkward. Treat it as part of the number rather than dumping it at the end. I know it mucks up the file sorting a little on certain platforms.

PS: change the A14/N13 point.

[michih]

I have a little issue in departement Essonne (91): N20 is indicated on all maps but it was "downgraded" to D route in 2006, please refer to wikisara:

La route nationale 20, ou RN20, est une route nationale française qui reliait historiquement Paris à l'Espagne via les villes suivantes          [...].
Seul le parcours entre Pamiers et Bourg-Madame est actuellement classé dans la voirie nationale, le reste de l'itinéraire étant absorbé ou dédoublé par des autoroutes.

Google translated:

National Route 20, or RN20, is a French national road that historically linked Paris to Spain via the following cities: [...].
Only the route between Pamiers and Bourg-Madame is currently classified in the national road network, the rest of the route being absorbed or divided by highways

And wikipedia:

Le décret du 5 décembre 20051 ne prévoit le maintien — en tant que route nationale — que de la partie la plus méridionale de la route, entre le débouché de l'A66 et l'Espagne (départements de l'Ariège et des Pyrénées-Orientales).
Le reste de l'ex-RN 20 est déclassé et remis à chaque département respectif pour devenir une route départementale (renommée RD 2020, RD 920, RD 820, RD 420, RD 320, RD 220 ou RD 120 selon les cas).

Google translated:

The decree of 5 December 20051 provides for the maintenance - as a national road - only of the southernmost part of the road, between the outlet of the A66 and Spain (departments of Ariège and Pyrénées-Orientales ).
The rest of the former RN 20 is decommissioned and given to each department to become a departmental road (renamed RD 2020, RD 920, RD 820, RD 420, RD 320, RD 220 or RD 120 as appropriate).

Former N route are also quite often still signed in the field in other departements (of IDF region), see GSV, but I could always find a D number. But I cannot find anything for N20 in Essonne. Even wikisara still indicates 'N20' where they usually indicate the actual numbering, e.g. D920 in Hauts-de-Seine and Val-de-Marne, D2020 in Eure-et-Loir, Loiret, Loir-et-Cher and Cher.

wikisara has it as a "yellow N20" in their voie express list 

We don't have the route in HB yet - which is fine since it doesn't belong to fran system - and I tend to draft it as 'N20' but put it to fraidfd system.

Thoughts?