Author Topic: frad: France Routes Départementales  (Read 34792 times)

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Offline michih

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Re: frad: France Routes Départementales
« Reply #135 on: January 05, 2020, 10:12:50 am »
My experience on drafting mainland D routes:

First, I always try to find info about the systems on wikisara but there is not an overview for most of the departements. I usually edit the url to find the article, see readme.
I think that the available wikisara articles are mostly correct but I found rare cases (2 or 3) where the route extends according to OSM, GM and GSV and there is not good reason why it should end where it's indicated on wikisara.

Due to the generally good - but not perfect - signposting in France, OSM and GM do usually have the routes quite well. However, don't rely on one source only!
I ALWAYS check the route start + end point on OSM and GM. If there are doubts, I check it on GSV. The same for intersecting routes. I always check both. If one is different, I check GSV and it's about fifty-fifty when OSM or GM is correct.

Many departements have very short routes from a route to the next village only. Especially these short routes are often extended by mistake on GM or OSM.
If there are doubts - or when I'm in a departement with this attitude, I usually check the town signs of villages. There is usually a D road sign on top. If not, it's likely no D road.
The end point is quite often in the village as you can see when you compare all town signs. I'd trust GM more than OSM on this. Again, OSM often extends it! On GSV, you often see C road signs then.

C road numbering on OSM was virtually always wrong in IDF. It's better in GES but I always check the number on GSV before I call a wp Cxx.
When the D route ends in the village, it seems that it's quite often at the church according to GM and OSM. That's why I often have
Code: [Select]
RueEgl for Rue de l'Eglise.

Most departements begin with route D1 and they have no or rare gaps. The routes with suffix are often without gaps DxA to ... but DxD is sometimes skipped. And some are only a few meters long, ramps of interchanges etc. I don't draft them even when they are signed. The criteria is: Is it one interchange or more than one interchange?
Some departements name more then one route with the suffix. The routes are usually numbered again, e.g. D123E1, D123E2. I first thought that I should ignore these but we should threat them equate to the other routes.

RueEgl as prefered wp label because church is easiest to be identify, and it's also often the end point at OSM.

Labels of short (intersecting) route are often only visible on GM with zoom level 18 or even 19.


I'm not sure whether Lucian (or our American friends) is aware of it but the trunk routes are former N routes. They are usually D9xx, D8xx, D6xx, D4xx now. xx is often (part of) the former N route number. Depending on the phase (year) of downgrading and the departement-specific dedication rule. Of course, these routes are not consistently but have gaps in-between. Sometimes the old N route has the same D numbering over departement borders now.

In detail, it's different from departement to departement.


To be defined:

1. How to deal with M routes (metropole routes) which have recently been introduced? e.g. Nancy.
They are former D routes but not yet visible on OSM, GM nor GSV. I've still drafted them as D routes but we need a way before activation. I just found the first(!) route in OSM Clermont-FD now.
Should they be part of the D route system? Own system per city? Own system per region?
Si has named two eursf route with m suffx: "fraara.d030169m.wpt". But why not fraara.m030169? And how to fill the csv files since the departement codes are in banner field?
Maybe list file entry like this: "FRA-ARA D301(M)-69 A7 A46"

2. It happens that routes with four route numbers intersect. Do we always use the lowest two wp numbers or do we use the most important route, like the former N routes?
Do we use all intersecting/concurrent routes in wp labels or just the one with lowest number or just with most important number? Concurrencies are usually not signed.

3. Do we use upper-case suffixes, e.g. D1A or D1a? Based on what I've seen on GSV so far, I think that upper-case letters are more common. Sometimes lowercase in IDF or mixed (one sign A, next a of the same route), GES virtually just uppercase so far. In total (IDF,NOR,BFC,ARA,GES), maybe 80..90% uppercase.
It doesn't matter for the software or users but it's displayed in HB. I'm gone with uppercase.

4. One system per region (13 systems in total) as I've done for FRA-IDF or one system per departement (almost 100 systems) as I did for FRA-GES?

I'm in favor of system per departement and would split fraidfd if there is no objection.

Pros:
- Easier to draft and bringing to preview
- Easier to peer-review and active (e.g. FRA-GES has the Alsace issue, two departements should be merged in 2021, road numbering unknown, not likely be be activated before 2022/23)
- Easier to clinch by travelers, better to set travel goals and achieve them

Cons:
- High number of TM systems (currently about 330 w/o France, 430 with France one day)



Just a reminder, yakra has converted available shaping files (found by Lucian) to be used for drafting routes (unfortunately just two of my departements). The files are still available but the source should be checked whether there is an update before start drafting the system:

I made a list of departement abbreviations to be used for border labels. Any objections?

We found some shp files and @yakra converted them using GISplunge.
I've added source and wpt file (output directory):

We could comment it when we find more sources. We can also copy the list(s) to a forum post and add colors.



To avoid facing the same issue we have right now with tons of preview systems for a very long time, I suggest starting with reviewing one of my departement systems before starting to draft a new system. This would also help that we draft the D routes as similar as possible all over the country!


@Si, let me know if (or when) your (pretty small) French oversea preview systems are ready for preview so that I can peer-review them after roudj and gbnb.

Offline si404

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Re: frad: France Routes Départementales
« Reply #136 on: January 05, 2020, 11:42:50 am »
Si has named two eursf route with m suffx: "fraara.d030169m.wpt". But why not fraara.m030169? And how to fill the csv files since the departement codes are in banner field?
Maybe list file entry like this: "FRA-ARA D301(M)-69 A7 A46"
That's because the Metropole de Lyon is (unlike the other Metropoles) functionally a department in its own right (69M), and the route is D301 as they haven't (yet?) renumbered them.

The list file entry would surely be D301-69M A7 A46.

Offline michih

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Re: frad: France Routes Départementales
« Reply #137 on: January 11, 2020, 04:11:54 pm »
4. One system per region (13 systems in total) as I've done for FRA-IDF or one system per departement (almost 100 systems) as I did for FRA-GES?

I'm in favor of system per departement and would split fraidfd if there is no objection.

Pros:
- Easier to draft and bringing to preview
- Easier to peer-review and active (e.g. FRA-GES has the Alsace issue, two departements should be merged in 2021, road numbering unknown, not likely be be activated before 2022/23)
- Easier to clinch by travelers, better to set travel goals and achieve them

Cons:
- High number of TM systems (currently about 330 w/o France, 430 with France one day)

fraidfd is split now. I've added my departement systems to the overview.

Offline michih

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Re: frad: France Routes Départementales
« Reply #138 on: February 29, 2020, 09:20:45 am »
The first system in Normandy is in preview now: franord76 - Normandy Routes Départementales (Seine-Maritime)

Offline michih

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Re: frad: France Routes Départementales
« Reply #139 on: March 28, 2020, 12:35:27 pm »
The first system in Hauts-de-France will be in preview with the next site update: frahdfd80 - Hauts-de-France Routes Départementales (Somme)

Offline si404

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Re: frad: France Routes Départementales
« Reply #140 on: March 30, 2020, 10:21:13 am »
Split off an IDF thread here for peer reviewing it.

Offline yakra

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Re: frad: France Routes Départementales
« Reply #141 on: April 04, 2020, 12:04:12 am »
I had a look at the system names, and many of them seem a bit dubious, overly long:
yakra@BiggaTomato:~/TravelMapping/HighwayData$ cat systems.csv | cut -f3 -d';' | grep 'Routes Départementales' | grep '(.*)$'
Grand-Est Routes Départementales (Aube)
Grand-Est Routes Départementales (Haute-Marne)
Grand-Est Routes Départementales (Meurthe-et-Moselle)
Grand-Est Routes Départementales (Meuse)
Grand-Est Routes Départementales (Moselle)
Grand-Est Routes Départementales (Vosges)
Hauts-de-France Routes Départementales (Somme)
Île-de-France Routes Départementales (Seine-et-Marne)
Île-de-France Routes Départementales (Yvelines)
Île-de-France Routes Départementales (Essonne)
Île-de-France Routes Départementales (Hauts-de-Seine)
Île-de-France Routes Départementales (Seine-Saint-Denis)
Île-de-France Routes Départementales (Val-de-Marne)
Île-de-France Routes Départementales (Val-d'Oise)
Normandy Routes Départementales (Seine-Maritime)
Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes Routes Départementales (Allier)
Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes Routes Départementales (Ardèche)
Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes Routes Départementales (Cantal)
Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes Routes Départementales (Drôme)
Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes Routes Départementales (Isère)
Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes Routes Départementales (Loire)
Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes Routes Départementales (Haute-Loire)
Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes Routes Départementales (Puy-de-Dôme)
Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes Routes Départementales (Rhône)
Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes Routes Départementales (Savoie)
Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes Routes Départementales (Haute-Savoie)
Bourgogne-Franche-Comté Routes Départementales (Côte-d’Or)
Bourgogne-Franche-Comté Routes Départementales (Doubs)
Bourgogne-Franche-Comté Routes Départementales (Jura)
Bourgogne-Franche-Comté Routes Départementales (Nièvre)
Bourgogne-Franche-Comté Routes Départementales (Haute-Saône)
Bourgogne-Franche-Comté Routes Départementales (Saône-et-Loire)
Bourgogne-Franche-Comté Routes Départementales (Yonne)
Bourgogne-Franche-Comté Routes Départementales (Territoire de Belfort)
Grand-Est Routes Départementales (Ardennes)
Grand-Est Routes Départementales (Marne)
Grand-Est Routes Départementales (Alsace)
Hauts-de-France Routes Départementales (Aisne)
Hauts-de-France Routes Départementales (Nord)
Hauts-de-France Routes Départementales (Oise)
Hauts-de-France Routes Départementales (Pas-de-Calais)
Normandy Routes Départementales (Calvados)
Normandy Routes Départementales (Eure)
Normandy Routes Départementales (Manche)
Normandy Routes Départementales (Orne)

There's one database-buster in there already, and to fit "Bourgogne-Franche-Comté Routes Départementales (Territoire de Belfort)", we'd need to expand the width of the systemName field by a full 20%.
Shorter names would be better, I'd think, and the administrative region's name isn't important with several departmental systems in the same one; it gets in the way. Wouldn't it make more sense to simplify the names & just name them after the department, E.G. Territoire de Belfort Routes Départementales?

Offline si404

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Re: frad: France Routes Départementales
« Reply #142 on: April 04, 2020, 04:26:03 am »
Shorter names would be better, I'd think, and the administrative region's name isn't important with several departmental systems in the same one; it gets in the way. Wouldn't it make more sense to simplify the names & just name them after the department, E.G. Territoire de Belfort Routes Départementales?
Concur.

Offline michih

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Re: frad: France Routes Départementales
« Reply #143 on: April 04, 2020, 11:22:20 am »
To be defined:
4. One system per region (13 systems in total) as I've done for FRA-IDF or one system per departement (almost 100 systems) as I did for FRA-GES?

I'm in favor of system per departement and would split fraidfd if there is no objection.

Pros:
- Easier to draft and bringing to preview
- Easier to peer-review and active (e.g. FRA-GES has the Alsace issue, two departements should be merged in 2021, road numbering unknown, not likely be be activated before 2022/23)
- Easier to clinch by travelers, better to set travel goals and achieve them

Cons:
- High number of TM systems (currently about 330 w/o France, 430 with France one day)

There's one database-buster in there already, and to fit "Bourgogne-Franche-Comté Routes Départementales (Territoire de Belfort)", we'd need to expand the width of the systemName field by a full 20%.

Bourgogne-Franche-Comté Routes Départementales (Territoire de Belfort) [71 characters]

A) "Bourgogne-Franche-Comté Routes Départementales" [47 characters]
B) "Territoire de Belfort Routes Départementales" [44 characters]

It was planned to change the names when we agreed on the system definition.
I prefer option B.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 11:24:55 am by michih »

Offline Jim

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Re: frad: France Routes Départementales
« Reply #144 on: April 04, 2020, 04:11:31 pm »
I don't have much concern about the length as far as the DB tables.  Those are small tables and if we made them 100 or 128 characters, it's nothing in the big picture.  I think our concern here is what is useful to TM users and looks reasonable in the places this information is displayed on the web front end.

Offline michih

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Re: frad: France Routes Départementales
« Reply #145 on: April 08, 2020, 01:49:02 pm »

Offline michih

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Re: frad: France Routes Départementales
« Reply #146 on: April 21, 2020, 02:52:05 pm »
The first system will be activated with the next site update: Seine-et-Marne Routes Départementales (fraidfd77): http://travelmapping.net/hb/?u=sys=fraidfd77

It's located east of Paris and covers 471 routes with a total length of 2,642 miles.

Offline si404

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Re: frad: France Routes Départementales
« Reply #147 on: April 21, 2020, 03:55:27 pm »
Do the system names need the region in them as we're going for a system for each department?

Offline michih

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Re: frad: France Routes Départementales
« Reply #148 on: April 21, 2020, 04:26:57 pm »
No, I've removed the region names from the system names, see previous post from April 8.

Or do you mean changing the system code - as we call it here? Changing from fraidfd77 to frad77?

It has no relevance to users but since we maintain per region, I'd like to leave it as-is.

Offline michih

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Re: frad: France Routes Départementales
« Reply #149 on: April 23, 2020, 02:07:12 pm »
Yvelines Routes Départementales (fraidfd78) will be activated with the next site update.