QC: Autoroute 19

[vdeane]

I was looking over the Québec Atlas des transports and it has A-19 ending at the BoulHenBou point; the rest of it to A-40 is labeled as reference route 61190.  Signage in the field matches this.

[oscar]

Thanks, especially for the link to Atlas des Transports, which looks like a useful resource I'll have to play with when I have more time.

Changes to A-19 made in my local files. In my queue to be pulled in along with some non-Quebec changes.

[oscar]

A-19 edited, in the HB.

I've started looking at other Autoroutes supposedly with urban at-grade intersections, to see if Transports Quebec is truncating Autoroutes to remove those intersections. It looks like that happened with A-740 in Quebec city, with its south end crossing the Laval University campus. The Atlas des Transports and GMSV show that A-740's south end is at Boul. Hochelaga, one block north of QC 175 where the HB now has the south end.

The A-740 point on QC 175 would need to be renamed, probably to AutRobBou since the street name at the QC 175 intersection seems to be Autoroute Robert-Bourassa (who, BTW, is unrelated to Henri Bourassa) even if it's not part of A-740 at QC 175.

I'll keep looking for more needed changes, before pulling in changes to A-740 and QC 175.

[vdeane]

That reminds me, I forgot to mention A-10.  The surface roads where the viaduct was removed are part of reference route 60110, with A-10 starting at Rue Wellington.

[oscar]

That reminds me, I forgot to mention A-10.  The surface roads where the viaduct was removed are part of reference route 60110, with A-10 starting at Rue Wellington.

What about the tunnels and ramps between A-720 and the removed viaduct, that seem to have once been part of A-10? Those seem to be part of an Autoroute, but I can't tell whether it is A-10 (which would mean a route split) or A-720 (which is doomed as an Autoroute, anyway).

Also, I couldn't find an I-10 Fin sign in GMSV to visually confirm the truncation, as we found for A-19 and A-740. Maybe too soon after demolition of the viaduct, for such signage to be erected or to show up in GMSV.

[vdeane]

Those show as ramps of A-720, which they might have always been.  Old signage from street view suggests that the historic end of A-10 was Rue Notre Dame instead of A-720; that's where the A-10 Fin sign was.  A-720 was signed as an unnumbered exit.

[cl94]

A-19 is a strange case. It is fully posted down to A-40, but it officially ends where the freeway ends.

Signage for A-10 disappears at the first signal. I drove that multiple times the weekend of the MTL meet.

[vdeane]

Is it really, though?  The only signs I saw in street view that were ambiguous were the ones at the A-40 "interchange" itself.  The other ones had directional arrows underneath, indicating that you're not on A-19, as otherwise they'd be reassurance shields.  Note that Québec does not use "TO" banners or an equivalent at all, so that is their method of signing a situation where literally we would (and on freeways they just sign them the same as intersecting routes, making it impossible to determine 100% where a route is from the A-40 signs alone).

[cl94]

Yes. This is south of where it ends.

[vdeane]

Inteststing... and right after the "A-19 Fin" sign on the freeway, too!  I wonder if it was signed at one time and then the province decided to truncate it, but the city didn't bother to change it's signs?  Making things even more interesting, I found another "A-19 Fin" sign nearly a whole km north of A-40!

[oscar]

I agree with Val that the signs at A-40, and on Ave. Papineau, only point you toward A-19 rather than show that A-19 extends south of Boul. Henri-Bourassa. Quebec's not using Vers (to) signs confuses things.

My first experience with the vagaries of Autoroute signage, CHM had A-640's east end at QC 138, which had signage like that on A-19 pointing toward the Autoroute. Only the FIN sign was (and still is, per May 2019 GMSV) at Ch. St-Charles (QC 344), which is the first at-grade intersection south of A-40. Tim agreed we should truncate A-640 to where the FIN sign was.

I would leave A-19 as is, after the truncation to Boul. Henri-Bourassa.

BTW, I'm still checking other Autoroute ends, to look for truncations beside the one at the south end of A-740. I looked at the north end of A-25 in St-Esprit, which in 2017 we extended northward past an at-grade intersection, to the northern junction with QC 125/158. I field-checked that change. Atlas des Transports confirms the change we made. At-grades are OK on rural Autoroutes (several routes have them), even if Transports Quebec avoids them for urban Autoroutes.

[oscar]

BTW, I'm still checking other Autoroute ends, to look for truncations beside the one at the south end of A-740. I looked at the north end of A-25 in St-Esprit, which in 2017 we extended northward past an at-grade intersection, to the northern junction with QC 125/158. I field-checked that change. Atlas des Transports confirms the change we made. At-grades are OK on rural Autoroutes (several routes have them), even if Transports Quebec avoids them for urban Autoroutes.

A few notes on my check of the remaining Autoroutes:

-- Atlas des Transports shows A-55's north end, and the ends of both A-85 segments, at non-intersection points. Our settled practice, for Quebec and Ontario freeways, is for us to end the route at the last interchange or intersection. I'm leaving those alone.

-- ADT shows the east end of A-440 (West Quebec) one intersection (Ave. St-Sacrament) beyond the signalized at-grade intersection where the HB now places the endpoint. Only all the signage, shown in very recent GMSV, says A-440 ends where we have it. Leaving that alone, except to correct the endpoint label (old label kept and hidden).

-- A-530's west end checks out. I would leave it alone, except for renaming the endpoint for intersecting road Ch. Larouque (keeping and hiding the existing label) for clarity.

-- ADT shows the west end of A-540 at QC 138, where we have it in the HB, even though there's a signalized at-grade intersection to the east at Ave. Jules-Verne. In this case, signage on the ground agrees with the ADT, and supports leaving this one alone.

-- ADT shows A-573's north end at the third at-grade intersection after the freeway ends, which is where the HB now has it. GMSV confirms that's where the FIN sign is, and also by then A-573 is a rural undivided highway. No change needed.

-- A-930 is unchanged, except a label correction for a point not in use.

-- ADT and the HB have the south end of A-955 (a rural Autoroute with lots of at-grade intersections) at RuePri. But the FIN sign is one intersection to the north, at QC 122, and there is no contrary signage to the south. I would truncate to QC 122.

-- ADT shows, and GMSV confirms, that A-973 ends at existing waypoint RueCroRou, rather than the next intersection RueDor where the HB now has the southern end.

I'll assemble a pull request for all the above Autoroute edits, and minor changes to a few provincial routes, tomorrow.

[oscar]

https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/3025

[vdeane]

I looked at the north end of A-25 in St-Esprit, which in 2017 we extended northward past an at-grade intersection, to the northern junction with QC 125/158. I field-checked that change. Atlas des Transports confirms the change we made. At-grades are OK on rural Autoroutes (several routes have them), even if Transports Quebec avoids them for urban Autoroutes.

What's interesting is that this sign makes it look like the end is at the first at-grade rather than at the QC 125/158 junction (although there are reassurance shields south of the junction on the portion this sign implies is not part of A-25).

[oscar]

I looked at the north end of A-25 in St-Esprit, which in 2017 we extended northward past an at-grade intersection, to the northern junction with QC 125/158. I field-checked that change. Atlas des Transports confirms the change we made. At-grades are OK on rural Autoroutes (several routes have them), even if Transports Quebec avoids them for urban Autoroutes.

What's interesting is that this sign makes it look like the end is at the first at-grade rather than at the QC 125/158 junction (although there are reassurance shields south of the junction on the portion this sign implies is not part of A-25).

Yeah, I saw an A-25 reassurance marker southbound, north of the traffic signals. Also, shapefiles put the north end where we have it in the HB.