usafl: Florida State Highways

[rickmastfan67]

This post will detail a possible split that might be needed for two routes, FL-19 & FL-44 along US-441 in the Leesburg & Eustis areas.  Dealing with this now would be for the best before any possible activation to prevent any future issues with either re-combining or splitting them.

US 441: add CR437_N and CR437_S just south of SR 429, CR452 -> LakeEusDr, CR44_E -> CR44LegA, CR44_W -> CR44

All changed except 'CR44_W' do to conflict with FL-44 file, which has a 'CR44' point (but might come back to this at a later time).
"CR44_E -> CR44LegA" also fixed in FL-44's file.  However, a separate post about FL-44 will be coming at a later time.

It seems that both FL-19 & FL-44 routes might need to be split into two separate files each.  1 for above & below US-441 bases on signage.  While the GIS data from FDOT (dated 08/31/19) shows them both on US-441, signage in the field says otherwise, but can also be very confusing depending on the location.  We'll start off with FL-19's case.

FL-19:
SB:
On it's Northern end w/ US-441, we happen to have this signage on the on-ramp to NB US-441 clearly showing a SB FL-19 shield w/o a 'TO' banner (ignore the FL-44 shield, as I think it was there from when FL-44 was routed along here, as there's a 'TO FL-44 East' shield on the other side).  However, when you flip around to look at the left turn onto that ramp from NB FL-19, there is clearly a 'TO' banner there.  Now, on 'NB US-441', you have this set of shields that do have a FL-19 SB (note, no mention of FL-44, but we'll get to that later), however, the problem here is that FL-19 HAS NOT joined US-441 yet at this point, so, FL-19 traffic will NOT see this shield, which leads me to believe it was possibly suppose to be a TO FL-44 West shield instead.  However, you do have this 'set' at the offramp from NB US-441 to NB FL-19 showing each direction.

So, the first US-441 NB shield that FL-19 SB traffic does see, is this assembly, which has NO mention of FL-19, BUT does have a 'TO FL-44 West' shield instead.  The 2nd 'NB' shield of US-441, is this one, which lacks any mention of either FL-19 or FL-44.  The first mention again of FL-19, is the following BGS at it's 'southern' intersection with US-441.  Then, right before the intersection, we have this little 'confusing' shield assemblies, showing a 'TO' banner above FL-19, when there shouldn't be one, because that IS FL-19 you're turning onto.

NB:
This direction isn't much better.  No shields along US-441, just like in the SB direction.  Just US-441 shields.  Starting @ the 'southern' intersection with US-441, we have this shield assembly showing a 'TO' North FL-19 shield with a set of US-441 shields for both of it's directions.  However, on mainline SB US-441, you have this North FL-19 shield w/o a 'TO' banner right before the intersection.  This would be the only place FL-19 North gets any mention till it's interchange where it leaves US-441 SB.


So, with the way signage is, it's making me lean towards splitting the route in half.  However, could we consider this as an 'implied' multiplex, though the lack of any shields along the route itself with US-441 is worrisome, as all we're relying on is at the start/ends?  Would greatly appreciate opinions on this one, as it's been driving me nuts.

Gap would be: 3.28 miles

====

FL-44:
WB:
As with FL-19 along US-441, there are no 'normal' shields, however, in several locations, there are 'TO' shields directing travelers to the 'other half' of the route. (Examples: [1], [2])  Now, @ the 'eastern' end of the route, just as with NB FL-19, we have ourselves a 'TO' West FL-44 shield at it's intersection with US-441. However, unlike with US-441 @ FL-19 (both ends), there is NO mention of West FL-44 on US-441 at this intersection, just East FL-44 (with a curious 'TO' Bypass North FL-19 shield).  All other mentions of FL-44 WB I've found along NB US-441, have been of the 'TO' variety.

EB:
Now, at the other end, on SB US-441, we have a clear 'TO' East FL-44 shield on the US-441 mainline before it's intersection with FL-44.  Now, on EB FL-44 approaching the intersection with US-441, we have this shield assembly, again, clearly showing a 'TO' banner above the FL-44 East shield.  And as with FL-19, the first shield on US-441, is just a solo US-441 shield after that intersection.  There are a few 'TO' East FL-44 shields along US-441 SB as well (like on NB US-441) letting you know you're still heading towards the other half.

Gap would be: 11.5 miles

As with FL-19, I'm also leaning towards splitting this file in half.  It honestly seems FDOT (even with the acknowledgement in the GIS data) wants both routes to have a 'gap' in them.

So, I'd appreciate any opinions you guys want to give before I make any 'major' changes to either route.  At least with the system still in 'preview', major changes like this can happen without needing to be documented on the 'updates' page, and allow me to break list files without having to worry on keeping any labels.

[rickmastfan67]

Would it be reasonable to include waypoints at Sans Souci Blvd on FL922 and US1? It seems to be a well used connector between the two routes (and, selfishly, one that I used last time I was in the area, leaving me currently unable to claim any of FL922) that Google Maps routes you on by default if making the south-to-east movement.

Seems to be a reasonable addition.  Added into my local copies of both files.

On FL50, CR439 should be CR439_S given this sign:

Note that there is no other signage anywhere for CR 439 north (which is Bluford Avenue). A BluAve point should be added anyway, since it's a former state road.

Normally, I wouldn't add the '_S' if there's no posted counterpart for the other direction.  However, I've done it in this case and added the other part as the label you suggested.  However, with the gap of only 0.25 between the two points, it's pushing it on being added since it doesn't directly connect to an interchange.

Changed in my local copy.

From user skatcher by email:

I noticed a “confusing” waypoint on the .list name FL FL616. Waypoint 1 (CR587/N West Shore Blvd) is labeled as ShoBlvd. I noticed when West Shore Blvd crosses FL US92 and FL FL60 both those pages label the waypoint as CR587. I think from a consistency standpoint the Waypoint should be changed to CR587. If not, then at least change the waypoint to WShoBlvd as N West Shore Blvd becomes S West Shore Blvd south of FL60.

FL-616: No shields for CR-587 posted at the intersection, hence used the road name.  Label however changed to WShoBlvd due to the N/S changing part.
FL-60: Posted there. Label stays as-is.  But I'm open to changing to 'WShoBlvd' too, as that does look like a pretty old shield that 'might' have been left behind.
US-92: Not posted here.  CR587 -> WShoBlvd

FL 590 (Clearwater) east end (waypoint is listed as SunPoiRd, for Sunset Point Rd. But Sunset Point Rd becomes Main Street once it gets into Safety Harbor, which it does at McMullen Booth Rd (CR 611). Wondering if the waypoint should be redesignated MainSt, even if it would break the 7 of us (including myself) who have clinched the segment.

Was going originally off of what the road was listed as in OSM.  Anyways, I could break it even more for you guys by shortening it to down one intersection to the south @ Delaware Street because of this "Begin/End of State Maintenance" set of signs there, even though there's a West FL-590 shield before the 'Begin' sign mentioned before.   Delaware Street is where the GIS data agrees that segment ends/begins.  Opinions?

FL 243 now is listed on the BGS at the Pecan Park exit on I-95 (Exit 364). As the weather was bad, I couldn't see if there was a sign on Pecan Park Road itself (and there's still construction going on at the interchange; it may not be signed on Pecan Park yet anyway).

Thank you for the heads up.  However GIS data doesn't show it going along Pecan Park yet.  And with StreetView being from December '18 with it being still under-construction, I don't feel confindent to extend the route to I-95 at this time yet.  However, StreetView on I-95 from March '19, does show the shield on the BGS for the exit, so, something I do need to keep an eye on for the future to update.

===

Ok, this should bring this thread up-to-date to just before the conversation on FL-886.

[rickmastfan67]

FL 886 is not signed.

Source: personally field verified this morning.

Did you go northbound and southbound on US 1 at 886?

I've never seen a reassurance marker either, but there have been 886 shields on US 1 for a while; this photo is from mid-2013:

Maybe we can consider FL-886 as a red-headed cousin of FL-102?  102 only had one shield for AGES until recently when a 2nd showed up along FL-243.

[neroute2]

I was thinking about 19, and could go either way on it. 44 should definitely get split.

[neroute2]

50: CR587 is a more major road than CR493. Recommend adding the former and possibly deleting the latter.
50: KetRd -> CroRitRd, the more important road at the intersection?
50: DeerIslRd should be moved east and renamed OakAve, the more important road there (renamed from Old SR 50).
51: I can't verify the CanRd name on signs or GIS. GIS labels LongTreRd as Turkey Road.
52: ShaRidRd should move west to ColRd, a more important road.
52: StaDr is a private driveway. Move just east to OldSanAnnRd?
14: add HarGreDr south of Madison to match the point on 53?
54: BlaLakeRd -> AstPkwy since Black Lake Road is a loop that returns to 54?
54zep: DorSt -> GeiEstDr?
56: MarBlvd -> ManBlvd
56: extend east to US 301
59: BethPageRd -> BetRd? (it's one word on sign, though it's two at the other end, and two words on property appraiser GIS)
60: move BayDr east to the overpass
60: why HowAve and not ArmAve?
60: FL45 -> FL45_N (it's unsigned to the south)
60: MainSt_BarE -> FlaDr
60: 91MileRd -> 91MineRd
60: LakeWalRd -> WLakeWalRd (it goes to West Lake Wales)
60: CenAve needs to move east
60: interchange with HesRd in Lake Wales
61: CR260 -> CR2204
61: FL371 -> CR1555? (SR 371 is no longer state maintained or signed on SR 61, but there is reassurance after you turn)
62: JohnGriRd -> JohnGillRd, but why is there a point here?
64: move 15thSt east to 14thSt?
64: WMainSt -> MainSt
64: SteRSRd -> SteRobSpec (per street blades)
65: NorSt -> NorRd
65: LChipPRd doesn't exist; move just south to WOShuRd (name from property appraiser GIS)?
66: WinCrkRd -> WooCrkTr and move it east
69: CR278 -> BirRd

[formulanone]

29: JanSceDr -> CR837_W, CR837 -> CR837_E

There's CR 837 signs on FL 29, but there's no reassurance markers on that route. I think it's much more well-known as Janes Scenic Drive (or Janes Memorial Scenic Drive); however, I'm not sure what the standards are for TM.

[rickmastfan67]

I'm not sure what the standards are for TM.

If there's shields @ the intersection, it's fair game, even if there's a lack of them on the road when it comes to County Routes, since we aren't adding the route itself to the site.  Now, if it was a state route, and the only mention of it was at a single intersection, that might be a different story (ala FL-886 above).  Those are case-by-case ones.

[rickmastfan67]

2: it may have been signed in the past, but I can't find any current signage for the 81 overlap. Truncate west end to 81.
2: StMarkSt would make more sense to the west at MainSt.
2: CR2A is not signed. Recommend changing to OldHwy2 (name from Jackson County Property Appraiser GIS).
2: OceAve should be OscAve.
2oke: CR250 is a dirt road that is not useful for shaping and has no shields or street signs. If you want to keep it, Baker County PA shows it's EddyRd.
4: HutLn might be better just to the east at BooLn.
4: ForRd should be 3NotTrl (the former is not signed at 4).
4: Key Mill Road - move west to CR4B?

2: GIS no longer shows the overlap (confirmed w/ StreetView), so, removed from FL-81 & appropriate changed made to it's file too.  All other issues mentioned fixed as well.
2oke: That point is there for distance reasons. Otherwise, it would be 15.6 miles between usable points. Still, renamed to suggested as it's shown in OSM too.
4: All suggestions made.

5: 6thAve -> 6thAveS, since there's a 6th Ave North on the other side of town.
5: 10thAve -> 10thAveN for the same reason.
5: the north end as maintained and signed is now at the C-51 Canal bridge.
5aday: WilTraRun is such a minor road. Move just east to MilDr?
5aday: move AlcSt south to FloSt?

5: All changes made, including appropriate label changes to US-98/FL-80 for the old route.
5aday: #1 changed. #2 AlcSt -> GolfAve as it kept mileage a little better.

6: add a point at CR751?
7: maintenance has been extended north to 60thSt.
9bjac: 1 is now open: "Marconi will be the first neighborhood to open in eTown in May 2019. It will be a gated community with homes starting in the mid $300,000s."

6: Added.
7: However, signage doesn't.  Can you provide proof it is indeed signed now?  I mean, sure, there's the overhead signage @ FL-704, but that's been there for ages, from the time that StreetView last traveled up the road itself, and showed that it had no signage along it.  If I can get that proof, I'd be more that happy to extend it.
9bjac: Unhiden.

10alak: S7thSt -> LakAve
12: GOEdenRd -> GarEdenRd (omit 'of')
12: FL269 is a bad name for a waypoint given the overlap; how about KingSt?

10alak: Fixed.
12: #1 fixed. #2 To be honest, I'm not even sure the overlap exists.  StreetView was last there back in '17, before the reroute of FL-12 in that area onto FL-269.  Now, FL-269 is still shown in the GIS data, but not sure if it's become hidden under FL-12 there.  As for changing the label to 'KingSt', as far as I can tell, the name continues in both directions from that intersection still.  So, 'FL269_N' to signify the end of the overlap maybe?

13: is ToFL16 necessary? It's just a pair of ramps in a large intersection.
15orl: FL408(12A) -> BumRd?
16: are ToFL230 and ToFL13 necessary?

13: Since the 'intersection' was pretty big, I thought it would be a wise idea to allow accurate mapping for people.  It's about 0.3 miles distance between the 'parent' point.  Plus, some people are already using it, so it seems to be a reasonable point to keep as it.  As for the name, that's honestly the best I could come up with.
15orl: Ramps are super close to/from FL-408 there, so I'll just leave that one as-is.
16: Same deal as with 13 above.

17: HarRd -> CodyVilRd
17: ToCR640 ditto
19: NF77 -> NF74? Street sign blades say NFR 77 though.

17: #1, fixed.  #2, re-centered CR640, and deleted the 'To' one, even thought it looks like this was bypassed once before.  But this was a smaller one unlike the other 2, thus making it easier to do this with since it's with a road we don't map.
19: Street blades, Google, both say 77.  Could OSM be in the wrong here?  Doubt FDOT would post the wrong street blade, but you never know.  Leaving as-is for now.


All the changes have been made in my local files and will be submitting in a bit.

[rickmastfan67]

All talked about changes have been submitted.
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/3107

[yakra]

FL19 on US441 is a pretty clear implied multiplex.

WShoBlvd, if we strictly apply the manual, would be WestShoBlvd. Necessary directional identifiers are abbreviated "normally": Nor/Sou/East/West. Though, how much do we really care about that rule these days? Not sue how wide it ever came into use in practive; I'm fine with WShoBlvd.

I'm not sure about the FL44 split; the TO shields would be enough to kick it up to implied multiplex level. My canonical example is NS2 via NS102.


Does usafl have its own standards on when there's an implied multiplex, as some systems do?

[neroute2]

7: maintenance has been extended north to 60thSt.

7: However, signage doesn't.  Can you provide proof it is indeed signed now?  I mean, sure, there's the overhead signage @ FL-704, but that's been there for ages, from the time that StreetView last traveled up the road itself, and showed that it had no signage along it.  If I can get that proof, I'd be more that happy to extend it.

If we had just come across this in a vacuum, we'd see the signage on SR 704 and conclude that it continues north. The only reason this is a debate is that we're looking at the history of the situation.

19: NF77 -> NF74? Street sign blades say NFR 77 though.

19: Street blades, Google, both say 77.  Could OSM be in the wrong here?  Doubt FDOT would post the wrong street blade, but you never know.  Leaving as-is for now.

I linked to street view that shows a 74 shield. Do we go by shields or street signs?
The Ocala NF map (last page) also shows 74. Looks like a renumbering.

[neroute2]

70: PineLevRd -> PineLevSt
70: move LigRanRd east to PlaLakBlvd?
70: OldFL8 -> OldSR8_N; maybe add OldSR8_S
70: should McCRd be MccRd or McCarRd?
70: FL713 -> FLTpk?
71: DynDockRd -> OldDynDockRd
71: HarNealLp -> HarNeelLp
71: LewBailRd -> LewBaiRd
72: BeeRidRdExt -> LorRd ("Fka Bee Ridge Rd Ext")
72: MyaSParkRd -> MyaRivSP
73: FinkBCRd -> FriBCRd
77: HoaSeaRd -> HouSeaDr or MarBayDr
77: CryLakeRd -> CryLakeDr
77: JohRd -> JohnEricRd
79: SugDollRd -> SugRd (one word on sign)
80: US27_N needs to move
80/US27: OldFL80 -> OldUS27, CorBlvd -> CorBlvd_N, OldUS27 -> CorBlvd_S
80: SemWhiRd -> SemPraWhiRd
80: FolRd -> ForHillBlvd or CreBlvd
80: PreRd -> PikeRd
80: move MilAve west to the underpass? or at least west to line up with the road to the south, since it's a gated private driveway to the north
80: FL5 -> OliAve
81: SubStaRd -> SubRd (one word per street sign)
81: CR2_W -> CR2/2A?
82: MicLinkAve -> MicAveLink
84: HatRd -> HiaRd
84: I-595(7) -> DavRd? Why is this one I-595(*) but the others aren't?
84: I-595(8X) doesn't exist on the SR 84 C/D roads
85: GRMBondBlvd -> GenBondBlvd
85: NWFLRegAir -> DesFWBAir
85: McWAve -> 77thSpeForWay, needs to be moved south a bit
85: CR85A_W -> CR85A_S, CR85A_E -> CR85A_N? CR 85A is signed north at the 'west' end
87: OlfChoRd -> OLFChoRd? OLF stands for Outlying Field
89: RWitRd -> RWhiRd

[yakra]

http://travelmapping.net/devel/manual/wayptlabels.php (search for MLKingBlvd):
OldDynDockRd would instead be OldDynRd, OldDockRd, DynDockRd, OldDDRd, ODynDRd or ODDockRd.
SemPraWhiRd would instead be SemPraRd, SemWhiRd, PraWhiRd, SemPWRd, SPraWRd or SPWhiRd.
Et cetera...

[neroute2]

100: CR231A -> CR100A
100: CR18 -> CR18_W, SE9thAve -> CR18_E
100: CR201 -> JohnAndHwy
101: MayNavSta -> NavStaMay
104: US1 -> US1/23
105: 105 south is signed to turn left on the connector (named Zoo Parkway, not Heckscher Drive) to end at US 17, with reassurance after the turn. There is also reassurance northbound on the connector. I can't find any reassurance on the road to I-95. Recommend ending 105 at US 17 south of the interchange, with the HecDr point renamed ToI-95.
105: DaveRawBlvd -> BloIslTer? I can't find any signs with the name.
121: SandHillRd is a dirt track with no street signs; convert to shaping point?
122: BouSt -> Blvd
126: the logical east end is where Emerson Street becomes Emerson Street Expressway
145: PawPawSt -> PawSt (one word on sign)
145fwb: FerAve_S -> FerRd_S, FerAve_N -> FerRd_N
189fwb: GRMBondBlvd -> GenBondBlvd (as on 85)

[neroute2]

200fer: US1/301 -> US1/23?
200fer: PinPl -> PineGroPl
200fer: MagSt -> MagLn
202: move SanBlvd east to the overpass and rename BeaPkwy?
211: McDufAve -> McDAve or McDuffAve
228: move I-10(362) west to the bridges?
230: LynLn -> ToFL16
231lak: CR231 should be a bit to the south
235: per GIS, the south end is one block to the north at CR 2054 *west*; signage at the end we currently have is ambiguous, but looks county-installed
263: TalRegAir -> TalIntAir
267qui: GouRd -> HopLanRd
295: PenNAS -> NASPen
298: SanSebDr -> SanSebCir