frahdfdXX: Hauts-de-France Routes Départementales

[michih]

https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/4623

Any other comment before activation? I'll make data check, NMP check, remove routes from eursf....

[michih]

frahdfm59 - Métropole européenne de Lille Routes Métropolitaines will be activated with the next site update.

[si404]

D1 - N136 -> N316

D1Dun - D601_W & RueLeonDron - one point at underpass? (also D601)

D1D, D2 - fine

D3 - Signed to end at Belgian border

D3B, D4, D8, D8A, D8C, D8D - fine

D10 - N38 -> D948 (surely go with French route, not Belgian?)

D10A, D11, D11A, D11G - fine

D12 - D27/D115 -> D115? (as D27 is across the border in Ainse)

D13, D13A, D15, D16, D16A - fine

D17 - End -> ParRivAa?

D17A - fine

D18 - D948_S -> D948_E

D18A, D19, D20 - fine

D21 - add point for Ave Simone Veil (unsigned D643B) as major turning

D23, D23C, D23D, D24, D25 - fine

D25Sin - remove D35 as part of the other route

D25A, D26 - fine

D27
 - D27D is off
 - D962_E is off

D27D - D27/D962 is off

D28 - N2 -> N2/N49 (see N2/N49 comment below)

D28A, D29, D29Gou, D29B, D30, D30A, D31, D32, D33, D33B, D33C, D34, D34A, D34B, D35, D35A - fine

D37
- D948_E -> D18/D948
 - move D37A to middle of new roundabout

D37A - D37 new roundabout

D38, D39 - fine

N2/N49 - the N2 between D649_W and D28/D649 is signed as, and officially, N49, rather than N2 (long-standing omission of mine that I hadn't seen until reviewing the D28)

[si404]

D40, D40A, D40AHas, D40B, D41 - fine

D42 - add point for GSJ at Rue Jeanne III

D43, D43A, D44, D45, D46, D47, D47A, D47B, D47E, D49, D50, D50A, D50AFre, D52, D52AD, D53, D53B - fine

D54 - RueGilFacq -> Nor/PdC

D54A, D54B, D54C, D55, D55Ebb, D55B, D55D, D55E, D56, D58, D58A, D59 - fine

D60 - RueLef_E -> RueLef

D61, D61E, D62, D62Pha, D62A, D62B, D65, D66 - fine

D67 - D77 doesn't connect

D68 - fine

D69 - add a shaping point between D23_S and D946 to help distinguish route

D69A - fine

[michih]

https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/6093

D12 - D27/D115 -> D115? (as D27 is across the border in Ainse)

I'd like to keep it as-is because it is not an official TM border. I think it's also in combination with the recent discussion about departement border labels.

D17 - End -> ParRivAa?

ParRivAa --> ParcRivAa

D54 - RueGilFacq -> Nor/PdC

Yep, michih, damn!

https://travelmapping.net/devel/manual/wayptlabels.php#county
In the rare case of a highway ending at a county or other border, use the first three letters of the subdivision name for each side.

However, this raised the question if departement border waypoint should generally be best choise, see D12's wp. Should it rather be Nor/Ais than D27/D115 or D115?

[si404]

I'd suggest, based on what you've typically done, and what I've recommended where there's been exceptions to that typical practise, that we use the following guideline (not a manual rule):

When a road ends at a local boundary (ie one that doesn't change the TM region) that is co-located with a junction then:
1. if the local boundary is not the boundary of the system limits (eg a commune boundary within a department), then treat as a regular junction rather than a boundary
2. if the local boundary is the boundary of the system limits (eg a departmental boundary for a departmental system*), then either
 a) if the junction is with another TM road that is the same side of the boundary, treat as a junction**
 b) if the junction is not, treat as a boundary

The reasoning for b) is that the most relevant information here is that it's the system reaching its limits, with possibly a different system continuing the other side of the boundary, rather than a road junction.

*We'll ignore metropole/department boundaries, as the metropole (with the exception of Lille) is part of the department.
** I'd argue that this applies to regional boundaries too - cf the D10 here. The BEL N38 label should be BEL/FRA, the D10 and D938 should refer to the other Nord Route Departmentale.

[michih]

I agree on all* but one:

The BEL N38 label should be BEL/FRA, the D10 and D938 should refer to the other Nord Route Departmentale.

D10 intersects the French D938 and the Belgian N38 at the junction. Border labels should only exist at the end or beginning of a chopped route. I drafted chopped routes differently in my early day - border labels also on a route - but fully agree for a long time now. D938 and N38 end at the junction and it is also a TM border - even an international border - and thus both labels should be FRA/BEL.

*you will face quite some labels which are not according to your best practise. Please report them

[si404]

D10 intersects the French D938 and the Belgian N38 at the junction. Border labels should only exist at the end or beginning of a chopped route. I drafted chopped routes differently in my early day - border labels also on a route - but fully agree for a long time now. D938 and N38 end at the junction and it is also a TM border - even an international border - and thus both labels should be FRA/BEL.

That sounds fine. Though that means that one in IDF needs changing as its a region border...

[michih]

D10 intersects the French D938 and the Belgian N38 at the junction. Border labels should only exist at the end or beginning of a chopped route. I drafted chopped routes differently in my early day - border labels also on a route - but fully agree for a long time now. D938 and N38 end at the junction and it is also a TM border - even an international border - and thus both labels should be FRA/BEL.

That sounds fine. Though that means that one in IDF needs changing as its a region border...

You mean this:

I did say this one, but it's not the route over the border:

D924
 - HDF/IDF -> D929

but that's as it meets D929 in that system and region. In fact it also meets D4 from that system, but not in that region.

I changed the label back in 2020 without any comment.... Was I craven? Or was it blind trust?

There is another wp at the BEL/LUX border (discussed on internal thread) which is even more difficult as LUX N31 has an additional border wp just 0.01mi next to it - in-between of the interchange. And BEL N872 ends 0.02mi next to it.

[michih]

When a road ends at a local boundary (ie one that doesn't change the TM region) that is co-located with a junction then:

How to deal "when a road ends at a junction beyond the local boundary"? D19-40, D343-40 and D48-64 intersect here. It is located in departement 64:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5093987,-1.1117324,3a,81.4y,304.19h,76.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8a8zQhp2bewktlmdBnI7TQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=franaq.d004864&lat=43.510106&lon=-1.110424&zoom=16

[si404]

^^ How you've done it makes the most sense.

[michih]

^^ How you've done it makes the most sense.

Can we agree on:

When a road ends at or beyond a local boundary (ie one that doesn't change the TM region) that is co-located with a junction, treat it as a regular junction rather than a boundary.

Nevertheless, I need to change the junction labels at the HDF/IDF border:

Though that means that one in IDF needs changing as its a region border...

You mean this:

I did say this one, but it's not the route over the border:

D924
 - HDF/IDF -> D929

but that's as it meets D929 in that system and region. In fact it also meets D4 from that system, but not in that region.

I changed the label back in 2020 without any comment.... Was I craven? Or was it blind trust?

[michih]

^^ How you've done it makes the most sense.

Can we agree on:

When a road ends at or beyond a local boundary (ie one that doesn't change the TM region) that is co-located with a junction, treat it as a regular junction rather than a boundary.

Did I get it wrong? Should I interpret the silence as consent or refusal?

[si404]

Did I get it wrong? Should I interpret the silence as consent or refusal?

Consent

[si404]

D70 - add point for RuePoi_N to disambiguate route between RueJulFra and RueTFD?

D71, D72, D73, D74, D74A, D75, D75A, D75E, D76, D76A, D77, D79, D80 - fine

D81 - add point for RueGeoDhe (D343A) as there's a point on D343 at the other end

D81A, D82 - fine

D83 - RouBal -> RouBai

D84, D85, D86, D86A, D86B, D87 - fine

D88 - add point for Rue Jean Moulin in Avesnes-le-Sec?

D89, D90, D92, D93, D93A, D93B, D94, D94A, D95, D95A, D95D - fine

D96 - D917 -> D917_E?

D96A, D97, D97A, D97B, D97C, D98, D98B, D98C, D99 - fine