UT: usanp roads

[mapcat]

I'd like to request the addition of Delicate Arch Rd to usanp. Delicate Arch is the most significant attraction in the park, and looking at the main park road in the HB, it's clear that several users have turned there instead of continuing to the end of the main road. If added, there should be a waypoint at the trailhead parking lot as well.

It seems a couple of users also ventured no further than Windows Rd, and there are plenty of sights along this road that may make it worth including also. Like Delicate Arch Rd, it's paved.

This ought to be helpful: https://www.nps.gov/arch/planyourvisit/maps.htm

[yakra]

It seems a couple of users also ventured no further than Windows Rd, and there are plenty of sights along this road

So there's a vista?

[mapcat]

So there's a vista?

8 or 10. Definitely not 9.

[Duke87]

The inclusion criteria for usanp are:

1) a missing gap in an existing system (eg Mammoth Cave, California Routes, Yellowstone)
2) a specific NPS unit for the road (eg Natchez Trace, Blue Ridge, George Washington Memorial and Baltimore-Washington Parkways)
3) a through route linking roads already in (eg Painted Canyon Road)
4) an extension of an existing system into a park
5) roads that seem important enough and link with other roads - even if they dead-end

Neither Windows Road nor Delicate Arch Road meets criteria 1-4, so the question is whether either meets criteria 5.

Both are quite short dead ends (under 2 miles each) so I... really don't think they "seem important enough". But I will leave this open for further discussion before making it a hard no.

[mapcat]

Thanks for sharing the criteria. There are some spur routes in the Acadia, Big Bend, Crater Lake, Delaware Water Gap, & Scotts Bluff parks that don't seem to fit criteria 1-4, so they must qualify under 5. Could you help me understand how they differ from Delicate Arch Rd? Same for Heintooga Ridge Road, Mill Mountain Pkwy, & Roanoke River Pkwy with respect to the Blue Ridge Pkwy, two of which are less than 2.5 miles long.

[Duke87]

Wooo hey we're shaking up a can of worms and then ripping it open here okay.

As I was not the one who drafted usanp I cannot speak to the exact reasoning behind the other roads you refer to being included while these are not, and indeed this is quite the "well why did you include this but not that" problem that some of us have raised before.


But, looking through, Acadia has Cadillac Summit Road which is over 2 but under 3 miles long and is the drive up to the park's single most central feature and... okay this is perhaps an argument favor of Delicate Arch at least.

Big Bend contains a couple dead ends but they're both far longer (20 and 28 miles, respectively). Rio Grande Village Road also connects to the half-formal crossing of the river over to Bouillas del Carmen at the end, so gains significance from that.

Crater Lake's one dead end is Pinnacles Road. I... don't know why this is in there.

Delaware Water Gap doesn't contain any dead ends, though it does contain a couple roads that are not clinchable beyond the park boundaries since they're county roads. Both of these are signed with shields, however, which is why they're included (this one I know for certain, I was involved in that discussion).

Scotts Bluff has the road to the top of its eponymous bluff, which like Cadillac Summit Road is the park's central attraction.

The various spurs off the Blue Ridge Parkway I can't specifically justify on individual merits but since Blue Ridge Parkway itself is one of the primary reasons usanp exists as a system in the first place, I assume they got scooped up simply by virtue of being noticed as connecting only to it.


This is possibly pushing me (grumbly) into the conclusion that perhaps Delicate Arch Road should be added... still leaving this open before I do anything though.

[Duke87]

Expanding the subject here a little, the point from Delaware Water Gap about "not clinchable beyond the park boundary since they're county roads" is causing me some indigestion when what's currently mapped in Utah is checked against it.

Kolob Terrace Road, based on pavement changes and signage, appears to be NPS maintained only within the bounds of the park. Outside the park it's a county road. This means maintenance changes four times and there are two discontiguous segments of NPS maintenance.

Precedent established with NPS 602 and NPS615 suggests this should, at minimum, be truncated to only the NPS-maintained segments. However, given that this doesn't connect to any of Zion's prime attractions, I am inclined to simply 86 the whole thing. That said, if the whole thing is kept, it needs to be updated to reflect a realignment at the south end.

Needles Scenic Drive as mapped has substantial mileage outside of Canyonlands National Park. According to this official map of San Juan County, the entire thing even within the park is San Juan County route 1291. However... NPS-spec signage is present along the road inside the park.

I don't think keeping the whole thing is right here either, but question then is is it consistent with criteria 5 to keep only the portion within the park when that would leave it orphaned. Depends on how you interpret "link with other roads" (note it does not say link directly with other roads, so this may still be okay).

Islands In The Sky Scenic Drive has a significant length outside the park boundary but has NPS-spec signs from the beginning and no pavement change at the park boundary so this is probably okay.

Everything else is fully within park boundaries and therefore should be good, though I do need to fix Cub Creek Road so it matches the end of UT 149...

[US 89]

Kolob Terrace Road, based on pavement changes and signage, appears to be NPS maintained only within the bounds of the park. Outside the park it's a county road. This means maintenance changes four times and there are two discontiguous segments of NPS maintenance.

Precedent established with NPS 602 and NPS615 suggests this should, at minimum, be truncated to only the NPS-maintained segments. However, given that this doesn't connect to any of Zion's prime attractions, I am inclined to simply 86 the whole thing. That said, if the whole thing is kept, it needs to be updated to reflect a realignment at the south end.

As someone who has clinched this road, it is my opinion that it does not belong in TM. As mentioned above, the vast majority of it is a county road, and the only reason Washington County doesn't maintain all of it is because it happens to pass through Zion park boundaries. It connects to nothing else within the park (unless your idea of "connect" includes a long backpacking trip), and the only real park-related things accessible from it are a couple of distant overlooks. The north end of the "route" is also silly - once you leave the park, it becomes a narrow winding road that isn't maintained all that well that goes by some ranches, cabins, and a small reservoir or two. I don't think there is any paved through road to the north.

In short: this is a county road whose main purpose is to serve a few random cabins, ranches, and small lakes that just happens to weave through the park boundary.

Islands In The Sky Scenic Drive has a significant length outside the park boundary but has NPS-spec signs from the beginning and no pavement change at the park boundary so this is probably okay.

I believe all of this road is NPS maintained south of the point where it splits from 313. The Grand County map marks it as "state route" ... and while this is not technically true, a lot of maps like this use the same color for both state and federal roads (I know nearby Uintah County does this explicitly).

The San Juan County map above shows the entire road as class B, including the portion within the park, which is interesting... and on second thought, I am not sure how reliable that map is. Both Island in the Sky and the part of Needles Road within their respective parks are most definitely NPS maintained, but they both show on the map as class B roads. Meanwhile, other routes within the county that we know are NPS maintained (the part of Utah 276 inside Glen Canyon NRA, Natural Bridges) do show as "state highways". The Grand County map I mentioned above does not show anything within Arches as county maintained.

By the way, "class B roads" are basically a Utah law designation for county roads:

(1) County roads comprise all public highways, roads, and streets within the state that:
   (a) are situated outside of incorporated municipalities and not designated as state highways;
   (b) have been designated as county roads; or
   (c) are located on property under the control of a federal agency and constructed or maintained by the county under agreement with the appropriate federal agency.
(2) County roads are class B roads.
(3) The state and county have joint undivided interest in the title to all rights-of-way for all county roads.
(4) The county governing body exercises sole jurisdiction and control of county roads within the county.
(5) The county shall construct and maintain each county road using funds made available for that purpose.
(6) The county legislative body may expend funds allocated to each county from the Transportation Fund under rules made by the department.
(7) A county legislative body may use any portion of the class B road funds provided by this chapter for the construction and maintenance of class state roads by cooperative agreement with the department.
( A county may enter into agreements with the appropriate federal agency for the use of federal funds, county road funds, and donations to county road funds to construct, improve, or maintain county roads within or partly within national forests.

[Duke87]

Delicate Arch Road is being added in https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/5114

Kolob Terrace Road, I intend to remove if no objections are raised but will give people a little more time to do so before I pull the trigger.

Leaving Needles Scenic Drive alone for now since no solution seems clearly unquestionably correct, but still considering it an unresolved question.

[Duke87]

https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/5280 removes Kolob Terrace Road

Settling for no build on Needles Scenic Drive. 15 users have clinched it, so it's worth something to a nontrivial number of people regardless of all else.

[yakra]

Precedent established with NPS 602 and NPS615 suggests this should, at minimum, be truncated to only the NPS-maintained segments. However, given that this doesn't connect to any of Zion's prime attractions, I am inclined to simply 86 the whole thing. That said, if the whole thing is kept, it needs to be updated to reflect a realignment at the south end.

FWIW Schoodic Loop Road was truncated to just the section under reservation jurisdiction.