TUR: O6 opening / E route changes

[michih]

Another section of O6 was inaugurated yesterday and should have been opened today. It has a lenght of about 100km and contains the 4th bridge in Turkey (first out of Istanbul) connecting Europe and Asia - "the world's longest mid-span suspension bridge".

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/430254/post-177891335
https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/430254/post-177916248

https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=fossgis_osrm_car&route=40.87003%2C27.02892%3B40.26997%2C26.60581#map=10/40.5806/26.8159

Edit 2023-10-22: Subject + Message icon changed

[si404]

Just to bump this as the route isn't in the browser yet.

[michih]

https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/6017

[si404]

D550 and the concurrent E87 and E90 ought to have points added for O6 exits 11, 12, and 13 (E87 and D550 only).

And do the E Roads still use the ferries, rather than the bridge?

[michih]

Thanks! Marking unsolved and moving back to open ticket board.

@panda80 wrote that he wants a confirmation for the (partial) movement of E-87 first. If no one provides any evidence earlier, I'll travel O6 in early October and will report.
I fully agree that D550 needs wps for O5 exits.

Google Maps shows O-6 but E-87 still on old route.

Edit: July 2022 GSV has E-90 signs on O-6 in both directions. Not E-87! E-90 seems to leave O-6 at exit 11 according to February 2022 pics and E-84 heading northbound.

Edit2: Label "O6" must be D110.

[michih]

I drove O6 approaching on D110 from Istanbul last week. The new(!) signs at O6's north end exit indicate E84 on D110 towards Malkara and(!) onto O6. See July 2022 GSV.
E84 is signed on O6 from here.
Exit 11 is signed as exit 12*. E90 is indicated southbound and E84 northbound.
I've spotted signs on the parallel D550 to the south, E90 is still indicated there in addition to the signs on O6.

E90 (on O6) and E87 (on D200) are indicated at exit 15 on the Asian side according to July 2022 GSV E87 is 30km away and E90 is signed southbound but headed north on D200 - like we have in HB -, leaving O6 at exit 15 would be the shortest way.
However, E90 is also signed from D200 northbound onto(!) O6 and not continuing on D200, see July 2022 GSV.
And E90 is signed southbound on D200, see here.
I noticed on my drive that E90 is signed up to Çanakkale (D200/D210 interchange), E87 is only signed from there to the south. That's also confirmed by GM.
However, O6 and E90 are also signed at south end of the new D550/E87 tunnel section which is 90km south of Çanakkale It's signed southbound(!) at the exit, that you need to make a U turn

Changes to E routes:

• E84 currently ends in Kesan where it meets E87 + E90. @si404 What's indicated in the official documents about E84's west end? Should we relocate E84 onto O6 till it meets E90 (exit 12, currently 11), or inculding the exit ramp to D550 where it meets E87 and E90 (E84 is signed here according to pre-opening February 2022 GSV, or should we add a branch, or leave as-is?
• E87 should be kept as-is
• E90 is a mess and needs to be checked more detailed;  @si404 What's indicated in the official documents?

*All exit numbers are off by 1 on OSM (and thus in HB). I've reported it to OSM. Needs to be changed in HB too. Also O6 -> D110 as mentioned in the previous post.

[si404]

Changes to E routes:

• E84 currently ends in Kesan where it meets E87 + E90. @si404 What's indicated in the official documents about E84's west end? Should we relocate E84 onto O6 till it meets E90 (exit 12, currently 11), or inculding the exit ramp to D550 where it meets E87 and E90 (E84 is signed here according to pre-opening February 2022 GSV, or should we add a branch, or leave as-is?
• E87 should be kept as-is
• E90 is a mess and needs to be checked more detailed;  @si404 What's indicated in the official documents?

From the official AGR, the relevant sections are:
E84: "Kesan - Tekirdag - Silivri"
E87: "Burgas - Marinka - Zvezdec - Malko Tarnovo - Dereköy - Kirklareli - Babaeski - Havza - Keşan - Gelibolu - Eceabat … Çanakkale - Ayvalik - Izmir"
E90: "Alexandropouli - Ipsala - Kesan - Gelibolu ... Lapseki - Bursa - Eskişehir - Sivrihisar - Ankara"

Also, from an informal document (submitted over a month ago, which was still too late, apparently, to be discussed) for the meeting of the Special Committee on Road Transport taking place this week. 'Turkiye' proposes rerouting both E87 and E90 onto the bridge. E84 remains going to Kesan. The other major change proposed is the E80 via the O7. I'd suggest that the maps and listings in this document are what we take Turkish E roads to be officially. Though whether that means de facto too, I would suggest not.

As E84 is signed along the O6 all the way from the official E84 to the E90, I do not see why we cannot add a spur route along O6, like we have with, eg, the E88 (where both ways around Ankara are signed). The E90 and E87 are a mess with the new bridge. I'll have a look tomorrow and see if I can break through it.

[michih]

The informal document - table + map - only indicates E87 on the bridge (not signed though) and keep E90 as-is (but it's signed on the bridge). E84 should also stay as-was and it is not intended to be moved onto O6 - but it's also signed on O6. E80 is also not yet signed on O7 but there are "E_ " signs only - just like on O7Cob. It's a mess.... I would not jump the gun!

edit: Did I miss anyting? Why do I read the document differently? Did I have too much red wine tonight? Odd......

[si404]

The informal document - table + map - only indicates E87 on the bridge (not signed though) and keep E90 as-is (but it's signed on the bridge).

AGR now: "Ipsala - Kesan - Gelibolu ... Lapseki - Bursa - Eskişehir - Sivrihisar - Ankara"
proposal: "Ipsala - Kesan - Gelibolu - Lapseki - Bursa - Eskişehir - Sivrihisar - Ankara"

It's subtle, but the E90 is changed, removing the ... for a ferry.

I hadn't noticed that the explicitly put the bridge in the E87 description.

The maps, however, are somewhat ambiguous. I don't think you can say either way on the E90 for them.

The bigger issue with the E90 is the odd spur where the O6 south of the logical end point is signed as E90. I said I was going to look at it today, but didn't. Will do soon.

As for don't jump the gun, I said as much in my earlier post.

[panda80]

Added the WPs for D550 and E-87. Would wait for the E-routes.

[michih]

Added the WPs for D550 and E-87. Would wait for the E-routes.

Thanks! You forgot adding the wps to concurrent E90 though.

You also didn't change the O6 route:

Edit2: Label "O6" must be D110.

Exit 11 is signed as exit 12*.
[...]
*All exit numbers are off by 1 on OSM (and thus in HB). I've reported it to OSM. Needs to be changed in HB too. Also O6 -> D110 as mentioned in the previous post.

[si404]

Related E roads

Signage evidence from Streetview:
E84
 - clearly both ways along D110 from new motorway. But also signed both ways along O6 at K10 (where eastbound doesn't exist). The westbound O6 signage makes it not just prempting the section of O6 northeast of there.
 - also signed along O6 to exit 11 where it meets the other E roads

E87 European side
- not signed from mainline at K11 at all s/b) (n/b)
 - nor signed from D550 at K11, but not signed north along it either
 - not signed heading south at bridge D550 s/b, O6 s/b
 - doesn't appear on signs on D550

E87 Asian side
 - Signed at O6/D200's northern junction, but then not
- signed northbound at Canakkale, but not at the D200/D210 junction

E90 European side:
-not signed as coming off O6 at K11, nor signed northbound along D550 from south of K11, though signed along D550 north of K11 (cf E87 not being signed).

E90 Asian side:
- ferry seems to have stopped: signs whited out
- E90 both ways at K14, but not from D200 itself (n/b), (s/b
- this sign going the other way is a mess (it's also something that they updated)
- signed southbound along D200 south of O6
- signed northbound at D200/D210 junction


Actions:
E84 spur
 - add "Kavakkoy" spur along O6 between exits 10 and 11 as signed away from mainline as E84 (and thus not 'to' signs)

E87 option 1
 - remove the sections where only E90 is signed (or nothing is)
 > truncate Europe section to Kesan (the signs become exclusively E90 to the south of the town. That said there are no E90 signs in the town - including heading towards Greece!)
 > truncate Asia section to the D200/D210 cloverleaf (or, if going with E90 spur option 2, where it diverges from the E90)

E87 option 2
 - treat as an unsigned concurrency with E90 as they seemingly cannot sign both routes and went with E90
 > reroute over bridge between K11 and end of O6

E90
 - reroute over bridge

E90 spur option 1
 - add "Cannakale" spur as its signed, including away from main E90

E90 spur option 2
 - treat E90 signs from bridge to Cannakale as errors that should read E87 and have that as E87 (either ending at E90, or extending along the whole concurrency, per signage)

The signage related to this road is a mess (though I believe that is typical for Turkey) - it almost makes Italian signage of road numbers look good!

PS: the junction numbers seem a mess - do OSM/us have them correct?

[michih]

E87 option 2
 - treat as an unsigned concurrency with E90 as they seemingly cannot sign both routes and went with E90

Yep, I saw that concurrent E routes are NOT signed in Turkey. Thus, I'd go with that option.

E90 spur option 1
 - add "Cannakale" spur as its signed, including away from main E90

I prefer this option.

PS: the junction numbers seem a mess - do OSM/us have them correct?

Yep, they are off by 1 on OSM like I've mentioned upthread

[michih]

E90Kes missed the two O6 wps causing a broken concurrency. Added: https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/6119

[si404]

Turkey has submitted a formal proposal to tweak E roads onto motorways, though it doesn't say anything different to the informal proposal (other than adding 'border gate' to various places in the descriptions). The UNECE meeting to discuss this will be in October: https://unece.org/sites/default/files/2023-08/ECE-TRANS-SC1-2023-1e_0.pdf