HI: differences between DOT data and what is in the HB for Oahu

[Duke87]

In prep for a trip in March I am looking at this: https://hidot.hawaii.gov/highways/home/oahu/oahu-state-roads-and-highways

Here I am making an info dump of everything and whether it matches what's in the HB. I intend to provide a full report on what is or isn't signed after I return from said trip.

Matches:
I-H1, I-H2, I-H3, I-H201, HI 61, HI 64, HI 65, HI 76, HI 83, HI 92, HI 99, HI 750, HI 7012, HI 7101, HI 7110, HI 7310, HI 8930

Not in HB (signage status ?):
HI 901, HI 7401, HI 7141, HI 7239, HI 7241, HI 7345, HI 7350, HI 7351, HI 7413, HI 7415, HI 7601, HI 8300, HI 8940, HI 8945, HI 8955

In HB but different:
- HI 93 officially ends at Kaena Point state park boundary, slightly shy of where marked in HB currently
- HI 98 officially continues up Halona St and Olomea St to Houghtailing St
- HI 930 officially ends at Kaena Point state park boundary, past where marked in HB currently

[oscar]

A quick look:

8940, 8945, 8955 were unsigned last I was there. They are roads on the now-privatized Barbers Point naval reservation. Some milemarkers, no route numbers.

901 is barely signed, marked only by a small white number plate under the milemarker at the west end.

Many of the others "Not in HB" are short unsigned access roads to military bases. 

More comments to follow.

[SSOWorld]

93 may end at the park but it is signed at the intersection where it is marked. (Apr 2022)

[Duke87]

Scouting report: 93 and 930 both clearly end on the ground where the HB shows so I'd leave those as is.

There may not be any signs for 98 west of the H1 ramps but there also is no indication it specifically ends there. I do think it should be extended west to Houghtailing St to match what the official description shows.

Didn't find any other surprises (at least not in terms of route signage).

For the Big Island (where I was yesterday), I didn't drive everything but what I did drive looks correct. It is of note that mile markers for HI 200 still exist all the way into downtown Hilo, including a zero milemarker at the intersection of Waianuenue Ave with HI 19, but official documentation is quite clear that that has been downloaded to county jurisdiction so I'd say that's mapped correctly and the milemarkers are leftover.

The way Crater Rim Drive is mapped as intersecting HI 11 is a little awkward since that's not actually what the road does, I would recommend moving that point to the intersection with the access road. Which yes means losing the graph connection but is more correct.


Heading to Kauai tomorrow, will drop any comments about that here if I have them.

[Duke87]

Kauai Comments:

HI 560 needs to be truncated slightly, to about here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=22.220940&lon=-159.579423
OSM shows this as a gate. Ground truth is... yup, gate, and the road is no longer driveable past this point.

The stream ford at the end of HI580 has been replaced with a bailey bridge (the ford structure itself appears to have washed out at some point), so the KawiStrFord point label is no longer accurate and should be changed to something else.

HI 520, 530, 543, 552, and 581 are all pretty well signed. 520 and 530 even have state spec mile markers. I know currently what's in the HB deliberately excludes any roads that aren't state maintenance but... man, from a driver's perspective you cannot tell the difference with these. Is there any particular reason I'm missing why these roads are handled differently from county-maintained roads that are signed as state routes in other states (e.g. NY)?

[bejacob]

If I recall, Hawaii counties use the same signs for county roads that are used for state routes (when they bother to sign them at all). I remember driving several of county highways on Kauai on the off chance they might eventually be added to the HB. In most cases I was just taking a shorter path to my destination. Of course, I made sure to clinch all the routes in the HB first.

Technically these county routes shouldn't be in the HB, but you're correct in noting that there is no way for a driver to discern which road are county highways and which are state routes since the signs are the same. I seem to remember some signed county roads on Oahu as well that fall under the same situation.

It's probably best to leave these county roads out and assume the signage is wrong rather than to add them in. In some places around the USA, I've seen US shields used on state routes. Incorrect signage is just that.

[oscar]

If I recall, Hawaii counties use the same signs for county roads that are used for state routes (when they bother to sign them at all).

Maui County has some county routes, on Maui island (not on Lanai or Molokai), which have different sign styles from the state routes. Lately that county used a fugly mutant variant of the state markers, though fortunately they seem to be disappearing and replaced with state-spec markers. See http://www.hawaiihighways.com/photos-intro.htm, at the bottom of the page, for some of the variants currently or formerly in use.

Historically, upon statehood Hawaii had a unified route system including both state- and county-maintained roads. In 1968, the state decided to split the system into separate state and county networks, with some route swaps (especially to fob off on the counties unpaved routes the state wasn't planning to pave). About the same time, the state changed from cutout to non-cutout markers. For some reason, the counties choosing to maintain numbered county routes (except on Maui island) decided to mimic the new state markers.

The routes on Kauai you and Duke87 mention were all removed in their entirety from the state system in 1968, except 543 which appears to have never been part of the former combined state/county route system. No reason to expect the state to take them back, especially since Kauai has the best signage in Hawaii for both state and county routes.

HI 520, 530, 543, 552, and 581 are all pretty well signed. 520 and 530 even have state spec mile markers. I know currently what's in the HB deliberately excludes any roads that aren't state maintenance but... man, from a driver's perspective you cannot tell the difference with these. Is there any particular reason I'm missing why these roads are handled differently from county-maintained roads that are signed as state routes in other states (e.g. NY)?

There are some state route segments on the Big Island that remain county-maintained (some day, the state might build bypasses), but HDOT treats them as part of the state system, and so does the HB. Quebec is that way too, with transfers to local maintenance (sometimes with provincial subsidies to help pay for the local maintenance). But unlike Caltrans, MTQ has no problem keeping them in the "national" (provincial) route system, which is one reason why it took much less time to activate canqc than usaca.

This is definitely confusing to local motorists, who aren't sure who to complain to about deficient design or maintenance (most out-of-state motorists don't care about the state/county distinction). My hunch is that the state and county DOTs kind of like it that way, especially since that allows lots of finger-pointing when a problem results in a fatality.

[Duke87]

For some reason, the counties choosing to maintain numbered county routes (except on Maui island) decided to mimic the new state markers.

Okay so we're arguing this is kind of like signage for NJ 24 west of Morristown: very definitely not part of a state route, but the county defiantly signs it as one. That's valid I suppose.

My only thing here is this... the principle I always apply is that signage is the final arbiter if signage is consistent, and what is official on paper only matters if signage is missing or inconsistent. The routes I mentioned are all signed fairly consistently (except perhaps 543, which only has signs at the 50 junction and nothing else). So, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

(former NJ 24 on the other hand is not signed consistently, signage is missing at junctions and it doesn't connect to the official part of 24)

I'd include them but I'll also concede it's impossible to please everyone here so do as you will.


Any thoughts on my other comments?

[oscar]

My only thing here is this... the principle I always apply is that signage is the final arbiter if signage is consistent, and what is official on paper only matters if signage is missing or inconsistent. The routes I mentioned are all signed fairly consistently (except perhaps 543, which only has signs at the 50 junction and nothing else). So, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

I don't agree with that principle. I always thought that the state DOT or similar body, and/or the legislature if it's involved like in California (but not in Hawaii), is the "final arbiter". Ultimately, a state highway system is what the state says it is, though signage can be a tie-breaker where the state is silent or unclear.

Any thoughts on my other comments?

Later, once I'm back home from Kentucky and can re-connect with my info resources.

[oscar]

I agree with most of the changes I haven't addressed above, including the HI 98 extension, the HI 560 truncation, and renaming HI 580's west end. I'll take care of these later when time permits, once I've taken care of my tax returns (Federal return deadline coming up fast).

[oscar]

Changes pulled in yesterday.

[formulanone]

I noticed that Hawaii Route 560 has a mile marker 10 at its end. That's right about where one could turn around, but they really seem to discourage going into Ha'ena State Park without a parking permit which would also grant access to the park. I didn't see a locked gate when I arrived but walked from the parking lot drop-off area to the mile marker with the 560 tag underneath it.

Some of the mile markers past the entrance to Kōke'e State Park remained but they were quite faded and the little SR "dog tags" were missing below the mileage paddle. So that is definitely correct (though the potholes all the way up to the viewpoints for the Nā Pali Coast might swallow half a car).


End of Hawaii Route 550 in Ha'ena State Park by formulanone, on Flickr