Author Topic: HI: Lots missing  (Read 10910 times)

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Offline bejacob

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Re: HI: Lots missing
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2023, 09:23:55 pm »
Since it seems that this is a unique situation among state highway systems, what it comes down to for me is what makes the most sense for TM's users.  Putting aside that adding the routes in question means someone has to draft them and maintain them, would TM users rather have them available for mapping?

Despite the signage, the Hawaii state and county roads are different systems. The idea of mapping the county roads could set a precedent we don't want. I've driven most of the county roads on the Big Island and Kauai, as well as some on Maui out of curiosity of where they went. Even though it would increase my overall HI mileage, I would not advocate for their inclusion.

For me the bottom line is this. The State of Hawaii has a defined list of state highways and they are signed reasonably well. That's should be all that are included in usahi. Since the state doesn't include them in their official inventory, neither should we.

Offline neroute2

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Re: HI: Lots missing
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2023, 10:39:17 pm »
The State of Hawaii has a defined list of state highways and they are signed reasonably well.
Where is this list? Or are you talking about the list of state-maintained state highways?

Since the state doesn't include them in their official inventory, neither should we.
By some indications, the state does include them. For example, they are all in the GIS data (click the traffic volume tab).

Offline oscar

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Re: HI: Lots missing
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2023, 12:43:42 am »
Since the state doesn't include them in their official inventory, neither should we.
By some indications, the state does include them. For example, they are all in the GIS data (click the traffic volume tab).

That doesn't mean the county routes are "state highways". Only that HDOT gathers info on significant non-HDOT roads that feed traffic to the state highway system. Like Virginia DOT collects traffic volumes on Federally-maintained parkways, etc. that feed into and affect the volumes of VDOT's highways (and even assigns those roads five-digit inventory numbers to plug their data into VDOT's database, even though they belong to the Federales).

This in any case takes us into a rabbit hole. We were talking about county routes with route markers similar to those on state-maintained routes. Many county routes are unsigned or have dissimilar route markers, including at least one (county 31 in southeastern Maui) cited by the OP.

Offline bejacob

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Re: HI: Lots missing
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2023, 11:03:31 am »
For the record, I am of the mind that "signage is the final arbiter if signage is consistent" and I would thus include any "county" Hawaii routes that are consistently signed. The casual traveler is not going to recognize any difference because it's exactly the same shield design, and if these routes are omitted this is only going to keep coming up as one by one people go to Hawaii, see a route signed, then wonder why it isn't in the HB and report it as missing.

Incorrect signage is a common theme. I recall the discussion of I-30Bus in St Helens OR when the sign should have clearly been US30Bus. I can remember a fair number of state routes that used the US numbered route shield. Clearly just the wrong shield being used. Hawaii doesn't have a separate shield used on county routes when they are signed at all.

Parts of county road 180 on the Big Island are signed, but the signage is sporadic at best. It's easy enough to pick out the proper route, but reassurance signage is almost non-existent between HI11 and HI190. 520 and 530 on Kauai are generally easy to clinch, mainly due to signs with the intersections with HI50 and with each other, but still doesn't make them state highways no matter what the signs say.

I'll admit the confusing signage led me to drive a couple county roads I might not have otherwise taken simply because I didn't want to return home to find out I'd missed clinching something. Since HDOT does distinguish between state and county roads (even if the signage does not), that's the distinction TM should take as well. When it comes up in future discussion (as it likely will), @oscar can post quick reply about the state vs. county roads in HI to explain why TM includes one set but not the other.


Offline Duke87

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Re: HI: Lots missing
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2023, 11:19:40 am »
This in any case takes us into a rabbit hole. We were talking about county routes with route markers similar to those on state-maintained routes. Many county routes are unsigned or have dissimilar route markers, including at least one (county 31 in southeastern Maui) cited by the OP.

What sort of dissimilar route markers?

Since we don't include unsigned routes as SOP, anything that isn't signed is out regardless.

Offline oscar

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Re: HI: Lots missing
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2023, 12:03:18 pm »
This in any case takes us into a rabbit hole. We were talking about county routes with route markers similar to those on state-maintained routes. Many county routes are unsigned or have dissimilar route markers, including at least one (county 31 in southeastern Maui) cited by the OP.

What sort of dissimilar route markers?

http://www.hawaiihighways.com/begin-county-31-narrow.jpg

http://www.hawaiihighways.com/route-39-jct-marker.jpg

Offline Duke87

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Re: HI: Lots missing
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2023, 11:09:27 pm »
http://www.hawaiihighways.com/begin-county-31-narrow.jpg

http://www.hawaiihighways.com/route-39-jct-marker.jpg

Okay yeah I don't think either of those count. Gotta be the guitar pick.

The 31 sign in your photo does not appear to still be around per GMSV, though a similar newer sign (green instead of white) is at the east end. There are state spec mile markers with "31" in a little tab on the bottom, but.... no guitar picks on the county section. So yeah it doesn't go in regardless.