usaca: California State Highways

[oscar]

260 is not signed

Your thoughts on what to do with this and somewhat similar situations?

260 - signed as, but officially isn't, part of CA 61; in the HB, concurrent with HB's CA 61 (Posey/Webster Tubes) segment
112 - co-signed with part of CA 61 (even though original plan was to extend 61 south to 238), but there is a little CA 112 signage; now concurrent with part of CA 61 in the HB; could remove the concurrence by truncating CA 61
164 - probably signed as, but officially isn't, part of CA 19, but no CA 164 signage; not in HB except as part of CA 19
51 - signed only as I-80BL (Sacramento); not in HB

[neroute2]

All four of these are listed as being signed as other routes in a 1998(?) document from Caltrans. Since nothing seems to have changed, except for the posting of one 112 sign (still outnumbered by 61 signs on that segment), we should probably follow that document.

On the other hand, I'd have no problem including unsigned routes like 260, 114, and 275

[neroute2]

Here's the document (from 1995): http://web.archive.org/web/20190602233803/http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/tsip/HSEB/products/state_highway_routes_selected_information_1995_revised.pdf

[neroute2]

271: ComRd -> RedMtnRd
271: 442BRd -> CR442C
271: US101 -> US101_N
271leg: move WilDr south to MarLn
271leg: Rd442 -> CR442A
271leg: move UndLn north to the right place
273: DesRd -> FacOutDr
273: CHA16 -> CRA16
273 needs a point for CA44_E; CA44/299 -> CA299_W
273: CA299/A18 -> CA299_E? I can't find any A18 shields here
299: OldHwy200_W doesn't exist
299: OldHwy200_E -> LordEllSum or OldHwy299??
299: AngLn -> DelLomaRV
299: CouLineRd -> BucSum?
299: SouShoDr -> CarrPowRd
299: CA273/A18 -> CA273_N? I can't find any A18 shields here
299: CHA* -> CRA*
299: RivSt -> MainSt
299: FallRivAir -> AirWay
299: SusRd -> CRA2
299: HuntRd -> CR411
371: ElConRd doesn't exist
371: LakBlvd -> BraRd
905: 3 -> 4

[Bickendan]

Is CA 259 and 710 still unsigned?
710 I can reluctantly see omitting, but I still want 259.

[neroute2]

1buscam: StaRosaCreRd -> SanRosaRd?
1buscam: CamRd -> CamDr
1buscay: 13thSt -> 13thSt_W
1busmon: FreSt -> FreSt_W
14trknew is I-5 Truck
17bussco: ScoValDr -> MtHerRd_N
17bussco: GraCrkRd -> ScoValDr_N
18busbig: PineKnotAve -> PineKnotAve_S
20buswil: HusRd -> HusRd_S
There's a 20B/49B in Nevada City. I can only find signs between exits 185B and 186, and northbound only at that, but the turns are well signed.
29buslak: MainSt_S -> SodaBayRd
29buslak: CleAve -> CleAve_E or MainSt_N
29buslak: HighSt -> HighSt_S or CleAve_W
29buslak: NiceLucRd -> NiceLucCut
41buseas: ElmAve -> ElmAve_S or AdaAve_W
41buseas: AmeAve -> ElmAve_N or AmeAve_W
41busrol: LanBriDr -> ChiBlvd_W
41busrol: Ave10 -> Ave10_W
41busrol: Ave12 -> Ave12_W
49hissan: CemAve -> NeiSt
49hissan: HowRd is a private driveway
58busbor: the west end is at exit 196, so CA58(193) and GepRd get deleted and BorRd -> 20MuleRd_W
58busmoj/14: GSJ at MonoSt http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=35.057411&lon=-118.175243
58busteh: MtViewAve -> MtnViewAve?
60busmor: HanSt -> HeaSt
60busmor: PerBlvd -> PerBlvd_S
60busriv: RedDr -> RedDr_N or MisInnAve_W
60busriv: UniAve -> UniAve_W or RedDr_S
60busriv: CorAve -> ComAve

[neroute2]

70busoro: MonSt -> MonSt_W
70busoro: NelAve -> TabMtnBlvd_N or CheRd
76busoce: FouS4 -> FouRd
I see the signs for 76busoce on the I-5 ramps, but are there any others? If not, do we really have enough information to map the east end?
99busbak: CA58/204 -> CA58, since 204 begins along 99B
99busfow: GolStaBlvd -> GolStaBlvd_S or ManAve_E
99busfow: AdaAve -> GolStaBlvd_N or AdaAve_E
99busmad: CA145_W -> CA145_S, CA145_E -> CA145_N
99busmod: CA108/132_E and CA108/132_W are one intersection
99busmod: BeeSt -> KanAve
99busmod: CarRd -> CarRd_S
99bussel: GolStaBlvd -> GolStaBlvd_S or MtnViewAve_E
99bussel: FloAve -> WhiSt_N or FloAve_E
99bustur: GSJ at 1stSt
99bustur: add points at OliAve and GeerRd (unsigned county routes)
99bustur: TayRd -> TayRd_E
99B is still signed in Chico, for example here. According to Caltrans it runs from 383 to Esp.
108busson: MonoWay -> WasSt_S
108busson: TuoRd -> CRE17
108bustwa: ThuDr doesn't exist
111buspal: SPalmCanDr -> PalmCanDr_S
128busclo/101B: FraSt -> FraAve
128busclo/101B: CloBlvd -> CloBlvd_S
156bushol: CA156_S -> CA156_W, CA156_N -> CA156_E
156bushol: SanBenSt -> SanBenSt_S
174buscol: GraSt -> AubAve_N
174buscol: MainSt -> MainSt_S or GraValSt_W
174buscol: GeaSt -> GeaLn

[neroute2]

US 50: I-80 -> 1A
US 50: move 3 to the Jefferson Boulevard overpass?
US 50: move 5B to halfway between 5th and 10th Streets?
US 50: add 6A at 26th Street; 6 -> 6B
US 50: add 22 (Aerojet Road)
US 50: add 31
US 50: onramp from RayLawDr between 44B and 46
US 50: GolChaDr -> SieBlaRd
US 50: WriLakeRd -> WriRd
US 50: StrCrkRd -> 42MilAcc
US 50: SayCanTr -> SayTra
US 50: EchoDr -> EchoSumTra
US 50: OldMyeRd[sic] is closed; move north to JohPassRd_E (and JohPassRd -> JohPassRd_W)
US 50: US50Alt/89 -> CA89_S
US 95/I-10: add 242
US 95: I-10BL -> I-10BL_W? (according to its file, though I can't find any signs)
US 95: VilShoDr is farther north; I don't know if Google's name of BoatClubDr is correct
US 95: AquRd -> CopCanRd
US 95: HerTr -> MopTr
US 95: NatOldRd -> OldTraRd?
US 97: JunValDr -> JunValRd
US 97: 1stCrkRd -> TenRd
US 97: LitShaRd -> BallMtnRd
US 97: MerRd no longer exists (the railroad crossing has been removed); replace with 4thSt_E?
US 97: MainSt_Dor -> MainSt_DorN

[neroute2]

Can someone explain how this makes sense? http://travelmapping.net/hb/?r=or.ca161&lat=41.999&lon=-121.6&zoom=17

[oscar]

76busoce: FouS4 -> FouRd
I see the signs for 76busoce on the I-5 ramps, but are there any others? If not, do we really have enough information to map the east end?

I grew up there, and often went back to visit family, so I have some familiarity with the situation.

The signs you spotted are the only ones, and probably never were any others. This went quickly to phase 2 of the life-cycle for California business routes, where the locality (city of Oceanside) taking over the old CA 76 alignment loses interest in signing the business route. Usually Caltrans takes the hint and (phase 3) removes its own business route signage. I don't know why that hasn't happened here.

I know the old alignment followed Mission Avenue all the way to its end, so that's how I mapped it. It does not connect back to CA 76 on its east end, since Mission got truncated at Frazee Rd. by a new shopping center. There is no signage telling travelers whether to turn left or right to connect with CA 76. I decided not to infer a connection, but rather left the east end at Mission@Frazee.

This is one of the flakier California business routes, though not necessarily the worst. I decided to leave them all in except the ones that lost all their Caltrans-maintained signage, in which case our normal practice regarding unsigned routes means I don't have to pester Caltrans about whether the route is still "official". Several business routes that once were official were omitted or removed from the HB for that reason.

Can someone explain how this makes sense? http://travelmapping.net/hb/?r=or.ca161&lat=41.999&lon=-121.6&zoom=17

Part of CA 161 is clearly in California, and part follows the state line more or less (with perhaps a slight dive or two into California). The latter is treated as a California route in Oregon, for simplicity and to avoid wasting time on where the border is (unsafe to assume it's where it's supposed to be, in this case at the 42nd parallel, as we've found in other jurisdictions) and whether the road is exactly on top of the border or is merely really close.

[neroute2]

Part of CA 161 is clearly in California, and part follows the state line more or less (with perhaps a slight dive or two into California). The latter is treated as a California route in Oregon, for simplicity and to avoid wasting time on where the border is (unsafe to assume it's where it's supposed to be, in this case at the 42nd parallel, as we've found in other jurisdictions) and whether the road is exactly on top of the border or is merely really close.

If we're not sure about the exact location of the border, why not assume it's on the road and put all of 161 in CA?

[neroute2]

US 101: mileage is measured from a south end at the bridge that carries I-10 west over US 101. If we're not going to start the file there, we should probably do it where the freeways actually merge near Lorena Street. Then we get the following interchanges:
I-5 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=34.025406&lon=-118.205638 (note: I-5 needs a point here)
EucAve http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=34.026977&lon=-118.209661
CA60 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=34.029474&lon=-118.215294
SotoSt http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=34.030818&lon=-118.217898
1A http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=34.034066&lon=-118.221227 (note: shouldn't line up with any other freeways)
In any case, there is no access between US 101 and I-10, so we shouldn't have a waypoint that includes I-10.
Then 1A -> 1B, 1B -> 1C. The separate northbound 1C (not currently included) is arguably part of 1E.

US 101: 2A needs to move south to the centerline, and probably east to the underpass
US 101: move 2B to halfway between Alameda and LA Streets?
US 101: move 9C south to line up with Highland Avenue?
US 101: add 12B
US 101: 13 -> 13B, add 13A at Tujunga Avenue
US 101: 43 -> 43B, add 43A at Rancho Road
US 101: add a point at southbound exit 95
US 101: 96B -> 96C
US 101: move 113 to the underpass
US 101: move 116 to the underpass
US 101: ArrHonPre is a gated driveway
US 101: OldCoaHwy -> OldCoaHwy_S, add OldCoaHwy_N at the other end of the loop (a full intersection signed for a county park)
US 101: add 161
US 101: 168 -> 169
US 101: add 190A; 190 -> 190B
US 101: move 191A to the overpass?
US 101: delete 203B; it's part of the same cloverleaf as 203A
US 101: VisCiu is a gated driveway
US 101: US101BusSal_S -> 323
US 101: GSJ at BlaRd between 333 and 336
US 101: 400B -> 400C (since 400B is used for ramps at two different interchanges)
US 101: move 419B to the new overpass
US 101: move 430B to the overpass
US 101: GeaSt -> GeaBlvd?
US 101: remove 441, since it is not an exit number and you cannot turn around there
US 101: unnumbered southbound exit between 446 and 447; name it RedHwyFR?
US 101: add southbound entrance from MeaValRd between 447 and 449
US 101: 449 -> 449A, 449A -> 449B
US 101: move 458 to the overpass
US 101: move *SanAntRd_N west to the new centerline
US 101: add southbound entrance from PepRd between 476 and 479
US 101: move 485 to the overpass
US 101: delete 495A; 495B -> 495 and move to the new overpass
US 101: add 525
US 101: EasRd -> OldRivRd
US 101: OldUS101_S is a private driveway; move OldUS101_N just north to BlaBartDr
US 101: TwinPineRd is a private driveway; move north to SteLn
US 101: FisRd -> CR307
US 101: HarRd is a private driveway
US 101: CA1/271 -> CA1_N
US 101: OldRedHwy_S -> ConHill, OldRedHwy_N -> RosRd
US 101: add BenDr http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.033776&lon=-123.784882
US 101: MainSt_Sco -> SScoRd
US 101: move 696 to the overpass
US 101: move 698 to the underpass
US 101: BroSt_N -> Bro_N
US 101: IndCutRd -> IndCut, BayCutRd -> BayCut
US 101: RedCrkPark -> KucVisCen
US 101: BaldHillRd -> BaldHilRd
US 101: LostManTr -> LostManCrk
US 101: CHD* -> CRD*
US 101: CHD7 -> ReqRd (I can't find any D7 signs)
US 101: add NorDr (unsigned? CR D3) south of 791
US 101: add ElkCroRd (unsigned? CR D2) north of 794
US 101: add CRD3_N south of CA197
US 101: add FredHaiDr_S (unsigned? CR D4) north of CA197
US 101: CHD4_N -> FredHaiDr_N (I can't find any D4 signs)
US 101: add CRD5_S north of CHD4_N
US 101: CHD5_N -> OceViewDr_N (I can't find any D5 signs at this end)

[oscar]

US 101: ArrHonPre is a gated driveway

To a nature preserve open to the public (with reservations), not a personal residence. Seems to me a perfectly fine waypoint.

[si404]

Can someone explain how this makes sense? http://travelmapping.net/hb/?r=or.ca161&lat=41.999&lon=-121.6&zoom=17

Part of CA 161 is clearly in California, and part follows the state line more or less (with perhaps a slight dive or two into California). The latter is treated as a California route in Oregon, for simplicity and to avoid wasting time on where the border is (unsafe to assume it's where it's supposed to be, in this case at the 42nd parallel, as we've found in other jurisdictions) and whether the road is exactly on top of the border or is merely really close.

So the road is along the state line (more or less), perhaps dipping fully into California, and so is put in Oregon?

I would suggest it's much more logical to not break the route, and ignore any possible slight dips into Oregon that might exist. And given that you think that perhaps the road slightly dips into California (not Oregon), I can't see why it would be put in Oregon.

Going along it in GMSV, it's very close to the 42nd parallel, but almost always slightly south of it. Driving west (so on the northern side of the road), it crosses the 42nd by MM12, and again at the obvious bend when you've cut the route.

So you could have it as ~1.5 miles as an Oregon section. But it doesn't get more than about 220ft north of the 42nd, so perhaps it could be all treated as California, like how the ~350ft south of the 42nd on this route is currently treated as Oregon.

[oscar]

Can someone explain how this makes sense? http://travelmapping.net/hb/?r=or.ca161&lat=41.999&lon=-121.6&zoom=17

Part of CA 161 is clearly in California, and part follows the state line more or less (with perhaps a slight dive or two into California). The latter is treated as a California route in Oregon, for simplicity and to avoid wasting time on where the border is (unsafe to assume it's where it's supposed to be, in this case at the 42nd parallel, as we've found in other jurisdictions) and whether the road is exactly on top of the border or is merely really close.

So the road is along the state line (more or less), perhaps dipping fully into California, and so is put in Oregon?

I would suggest it's much more logical to not break the route, and ignore any possible slight dips into Oregon that might exist. And given that you think that perhaps the road slightly dips into California (not Oregon), I can't see why it would be put in Oregon.

Going along it in GMSV, it's very close to the 42nd parallel, but almost always slightly south of it. Driving west (so on the northern side of the road), it crosses the 42nd by MM12, and again at the obvious bend when you've cut the route.

So you could have it as ~1.5 miles as an Oregon section. But it doesn't get more than about 220ft north of the 42nd, so perhaps it could be all treated as California, like how the ~350ft south of the 42nd on this route is currently treated as Oregon.

I'm now inclined to unsplit CA 161, and treat it all as being within California even if parts of at least the westbound lane might be in Oregon.

This all might be a leftover from when we were using Google Maps for our base maps. GM still puts much of the eastern part of CA 161 in Oregon, even if not by much. But then, I am particularly distrustful of how GM handles borders, based on its misplacement of the Alberta/Northwest Territories border, which differed from the handheld GPS measurements I took on several intersections of NT 5 with the border.

@Bickendan, your thoughts? Your conversations with Oregon DOT had CA 139 turning into OR 139 exactly at State Line Rd., despite a "Welcome to California" sign north of State Line Rd.