New unranked users: beltway and toll_roads

[si404]

Ought to be self explanatory. Both massively incomplete.

https://travelmapping.net/user/?u=beltway
https://travelmapping.net/user/?u=toll_roads

[neroute2]

Interesting. For toll_roads are we including toll-funded free segments? In other words, which is correct:
MD I-95 50 DE I-95 5C / DE I-295 I-95 NJ I-295 1 (one continuous route from Baltimore to New Jersey maintained as parts of the Fort McHenry Tunnel, JFK Highway, Delaware Turnpike, and Delaware Memorial Bridge and their approaches)
or just the pieces where a toll is charged:
MD I-95 55 56 (Fort McHenry Tunnel proper)
MD I-95 89 93 (tolled portion of the JFK Highway)
MD I-95 109 DE I-95 1 (tolled portion of the Delaware Turnpike)
DE I-295 DE9 NJ I-295 1 (Delaware Memorial Bridge proper)

[Jim]

I'd be more interested in including only where I actually have to pay a toll to travel.  So the NY Thruway and Mass Pike would not be fully clinched by the toll_roads user.

For the beltways, are we thinking beltways named as such or any that functionally behave as beltways?  I don't have a preference other than for some consistency.

[si404]

I'd be more interested in including only where I actually have to pay a toll to travel.  So the NY Thruway and Mass Pike would not be fully clinched by the toll_roads user.

I agree.

For the beltways, are we thinking beltways named as such or any that functionally behave as beltways?  I don't have a preference other than for some consistency.

I've only considered ones that might be considered such from the road (ie signs saying 'ring', 'loop'*, 'belt', directions of inner/outer, etc) rather than a map. But I'd be open to a different definition (mine, for instance, doesn't require a full loop) - consistency is, I agree, what matters here.

The latter ends up rather vague whereby any loop of roads might count. Paris' Grand Contournement is (I believe) a somewhat deliberate loop of tangential roads rather . But if I do a C-shape a similar distance to London (A27-M27-M3-A34-A43-A45-A14), because some roadgeeks consider it to be a similar concept, then we're clutching at straws here. And if I invented the same sort of thing for Chicago with I-74-I-39-I-43 then the user would be pointless.

*This one, obviously, needs to be a bit subjective, to avoid business loop type roads.

[cenlaroads]

This is a good idea.  Do you want people to submit additions and edits to you here?

[si404]

This is a good idea.  Do you want people to submit additions and edits to you here?

Do it via github if you can, but here wouldn't be a problem.

[neroute2]

An edge case for toll_roads:
NJ GarStaPkwy charges a toll if you get on at 0 and exit at 4. But if you stay on until 9, there is no toll. GSP has some even weirder cases due to one-way tolls farther north, but this one applies both ways.

[vdeane]

An edge case for toll_roads:
NJ GarStaPkwy charges a toll if you get on at 0 and exit at 4. But if you stay on until 9, there is no toll. GSP has some even weirder cases due to one-way tolls farther north, but this one applies both ways.

I-90 has this problem on the Thruway as well.  24-25 is not free.  24-25A is.  So are 25-25A and 25A-26.  24-26 and 25-26 are not.  25A to/from any interchange not mentioned here isn't free either.

Really it's even worse than the GSP example, because at least the GSP one is only an issue due to 1PPI (if the toll is considered to be for the ramp only and not the road, the problem goes away).  The Thruway issue cannot be rationalized away the same way - all the non-free movements have tolls that include the portion that 25A traffic can ride for free (very explicitly in the era of AET, where E-ZPass statements will have a toll line for 25-25A even though actually travling between those interchanges is free).

[rickmastfan67]

For the beltways, are we thinking beltways named as such or any that functionally behave as beltways?  I don't have a preference other than for some consistency.

I've only considered ones that might be considered such from the road (ie signs saying 'ring', 'loop'*, 'belt', directions of inner/outer, etc) rather than a map. But I'd be open to a different definition (mine, for instance, doesn't require a full loop) - consistency is, I agree, what matters here.

Here's at least 1 more for the USA you can add.

FL I-295
https://maps.app.goo.gl/QsnUVZXNrjR6cqzg9

[neroute2]

Here's at least 1 more for the USA you can add.

FL I-295
https://maps.app.goo.gl/QsnUVZXNrjR6cqzg9

As well as FL 417/429.

[neroute2]

I-90 has this problem on the Thruway as well.  24-25 is not free.  24-25A is.  So are 25-25A and 25A-26.  24-26 and 25-26 are not.  25A to/from any interchange not mentioned here isn't free either.

Really it's even worse than the GSP example, because at least the GSP one is only an issue due to 1PPI (if the toll is considered to be for the ramp only and not the road, the problem goes away).  The Thruway issue cannot be rationalized away the same way - all the non-free movements have tolls that include the portion that 25A traffic can ride for free (very explicitly in the era of AET, where E-ZPass statements will have a toll line for 25-25A even though actually travling between those interchanges is free).

When I mapped it for OSM, I put toll=no on the mainline between 24 and 26, except between the exit and entrance ramps at 25A, where it was toll=yes. Ramps at 24, 25, and 26 got toll=yes or toll=no depending on direction (all four at 25A were toll=no). Inelegant but accurately represented the reality.

[cenlaroads]

I updated Louisiana for the toll_roads user.  I-910/US 90 Bus is no longer tolled.  I added the LA 1 bridge in Leeville.  Louisiana should be accurate now.  The LA 23 bridge in Belle Chasse will be tolled soon.

[neroute2]

toll_roads brings up another longstanding issue: TX TXLp8 is not a toll road, but the frontage roads of the Sam Houston Tollway. There is no separate file for the SHT. This also happens elsewhere in Texas, such as with TX121 and the Sam Rayburn Tollway.

[si404]

I updated Louisiana for the toll_roads user.  I-910/US 90 Bus is no longer tolled.

I was using a 2012 Atlas as it clearly shows toll roads, but also free bits of toll roads. Of course, it's 13 years out of date.

toll_roads brings up another longstanding issue: TX TXLp8 is not a toll road, but the frontage roads of the Sam Houston Tollway. There is no separate file for the SHT. This also happens elsewhere in Texas, such as with TX121 and the Sam Rayburn Tollway.

Yes - and there's also HOT lanes and tolled express carriageways on free roads.

I would say that these - likewise the scenarios where shorter distances are tolled, but longer ones are free, probably should be marked as you are potentially liable for a toll, and loopholes give you a freebee. But if there's no toll between two adjacent interchanges, then that doesn't get marked.

[Nagamasa]

Is this intended to be US-only? Most of China and Japan's expressways are tolled.