OH: I-75 BLs

[Jim]

Drove all of Ohio's I-75 south of Perrysburg today and didn't notice any mainline signs for any of the 3 I-75 BLs we have in TM.  It's definitely possible I just missed them since I wasn't specifically looking for them, but I think I'd have noticed.  How confident are we that they exist?

[mapmikey]

Findlay OH has signage, though it requires taking 2 exits before reaching it from the south:  https://goo.gl/maps/nPmUHbTkBD72; https://goo.gl/maps/q6Z7eW6aUDG2;
Its turns are mostly signed: https://goo.gl/maps/RqTFjK8yRPQ2; https://goo.gl/maps/6aUG3zsrmyL2
It is also posted at OH 568 and OH 12.  it does not appear to be posted anywhere at its northern I-75 jct

In Sidney, there is signage leaving I-75's south jct - https://goo.gl/maps/z4vGbVj2rAT2
GMSV downtown is older but it shows the turn at OH 29 - https://goo.gl/maps/Jkm1RTw4NcT2 and  https://goo.gl/maps/mZngekC39i22
This appears to be the northernmost posting: https://goo.gl/maps/r5ESyp2AU4C2)

In Troy, it is posted at the OH 55 split - https://goo.gl/maps/9mMU1iLsHs92 and the OH 41 split: https://goo.gl/maps/X7MXRjkjpjr
It is not posted where it moves from OH 55 to OH 41
Did not see any postings further north than OH 41 split

[mapcat]

IIRC these have never been signed very well from I-75, but since they're signed in the cities they serve, I think they should remain.

[Jim]

Fair enough.  Odd that they wouldn't sign them from I-75 (Southbound, at least).  Seems to me that telling interstate highway travelers that there's a business loop is the whole point of the business loop.

[oscar]

The policy I'm following in California is that, since the whole point of a business route (per the statute authorizing Caltrans to designate them) it to direct freeway travelers to businesses on the old route it bypassed, once BL signage completely disappears from the mainline, the route is effectively decommissioned, even if there is some -- or a lot -- of residual signage on the locally-maintained business route. In New Mexico, we offed I-40BL Abuquerque, even though there was one stray old BL marker left along that fairly long former route.

Maybe in Ohio the state maintains those BLs, and/or has a current official list of business routes, so the state hasn't officially de-designated them, and since they have some route signage we can't treat them as unsigned routes.

[bejacob]

IIRC these have never been signed very well from I-75, but since they're signed in the cities they serve, I think they should remain.

I'll second that. I've driven all three. As others have noted the actual routes are signed. I suppose one could argue that the routes have been decommissioned and the route signage should be removed. I'd like to see something official stating that before removing signed routes from the HB.

I know if I were driving one of these routes and noticed the green Interstate shield along the way, I'd expect it to be in the database.

[mapcat]

"The whole point of a business route" is lost on ODOT. I don't think the state has a way of classifying any of them as "official", and maybe never did. Part of the reason must be that, for the most part, the cities served by these routes are also served by well-signed state routes, so these seem to be an afterthought.

[bejacob]

"The whole point of a business route" is lost on ODOT. I don't think the state has a way of classifying any of them as "official", and maybe never did. Part of the reason must be that, for the most part, the cities served by these routes are also served by well-signed state routes, so these seem to be an afterthought.

True. No other Interstate in Ohio has any Business Loops/Spurs.

ODOT does have official guidance on how such business routes should be signed. It even defines when it should be a BL versus a BS and what size shield should go on the route as well as on the parent Interstate. From what Jim noted, that last part is not being done according to the guidance.
 https://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Engineering/Roadway/DesignStandards/traffic/OhioMUTCD/Documents/file%2003e_Part2_Route%20Markings_files1-3.pdf.
I find it amusing that example in the document is for I-70Bus which doesn't exist in the state. 

[mapcat]

ODOT does have official guidance on how such business routes should be signed. It even defines when it should be a BL versus a BS and what size shield should go on the route as well as on the parent Interstate. From what Jim noted, that last part is not being done according to the guidance.
 https://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Engineering/Roadway/DesignStandards/traffic/OhioMUTCD/Documents/file%2003e_Part2_Route%20Markings_files1-3.pdf.
I find it amusing that example in the document is for I-70Bus which doesn't exist in the state. 

Good find! I immediately thought it must have been copied from some generic MUTCD documentation, but couldn't find the language anywhere else, so it probably was produced in-house. Maybe in the distant past the DOT anticipated more demand for business loops and spurs.

[mapmikey]

"The whole point of a business route" is lost on ODOT. I don't think the state has a way of classifying any of them as "official", and maybe never did. Part of the reason must be that, for the most part, the cities served by these routes are also served by well-signed state routes, so these seem to be an afterthought.

True. No other Interstate in Ohio has any Business Loops/Spurs.

ODOT does have official guidance on how such business routes should be signed. It even defines when it should be a BL versus a BS and what size shield should go on the route as well as on the parent Interstate. From what Jim noted, that last part is not being done according to the guidance.
 https://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Engineering/Roadway/DesignStandards/traffic/OhioMUTCD/Documents/file%2003e_Part2_Route%20Markings_files1-3.pdf.
I find it amusing that example in the document is for I-70Bus which doesn't exist in the state. 

I-70 Bus used to exist in Springfield and there is still leftover signage on US 40...