NY: LaSalle Expressway

[cl94]

Being as it's not part of Select Named Freeways, could we add the LaSalle Expressway into the system as a parkway? The road is signed with a parkway-like shield and is longer than some parkways and several other "select named freeways". With the introduction of usanyp, the LaSalle Expressway is by far the longest limited-access road in the state that is not in Travel Mapping.

[yakra]

I've been thinking of adding that into the Select Named Freeways set.
I was going to hold off until the after the parkways in that set were moved over to usanyp upon its activation, but there's really no reason I can't do this now.
Edit: https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/2140

[vdeane]

Interesting how it's routed... I always thought of it as going to I-190 rather than the NSP (actually, I tend to think of that piece as the NSP).  I wonder why the reference route was set up that way, especially given the original plans to extend it to the Rainbow Bridge.

[vdeane]

Interesting how it's routed... I always thought of it as going to I-190 rather than the NSP (actually, I tend to think of that piece as the NSP).  I wonder why the reference route was set up that way, especially given the original plans to extend it to the Rainbow Bridge.

Revisiting this since I was looking at the area in street view today, although the reference routes are set as currently entered, it's essentially signed as the LaSalle going to I-190 at exit 21A and the Niagara Scenic Parkway extending to meet the LaSalle there, with mile 0 being just south of the interchange with the I-190(21A) point.

[michih]

Is there anything still open?

[Markkos1992]

Interesting how it's routed... I always thought of it as going to I-190 rather than the NSP (actually, I tend to think of that piece as the NSP).  I wonder why the reference route was set up that way, especially given the original plans to extend it to the Rainbow Bridge.

Revisiting this since I was looking at the area in street view today, although the reference routes are set as currently entered, it's essentially signed as the LaSalle going to I-190 at exit 21A and the Niagara Scenic Parkway extending to meet the LaSalle there, with mile 0 being just south of the interchange with the I-190(21A) point.

Posting here as this is what I saw the same signage you did vdeane Friday.  I think that the LaSalle should extend west to end at I-190 at Exit 21A with the Niagara Scenic Pkwy extended northeast to the LaSalle.

[cockroachking]

Interesting how it's routed... I always thought of it as going to I-190 rather than the NSP (actually, I tend to think of that piece as the NSP).  I wonder why the reference route was set up that way, especially given the original plans to extend it to the Rainbow Bridge.

Revisiting this since I was looking at the area in street view today, although the reference routes are set as currently entered, it's essentially signed as the LaSalle going to I-190 at exit 21A and the Niagara Scenic Parkway extending to meet the LaSalle there, with mile 0 being just south of the interchange with the I-190(21A) point.

Posting here as this is what I saw the same signage you did vdeane Friday.  I think that the LaSalle should extend west to end at I-190 at Exit 21A with the Niagara Scenic Pkwy extended northeast to the LaSalle.

I agree with this assessment based on what I can see.

There is also this reassurance sign for the NiaScePkwy on the ramps that are a part of NY951A, so that further supports this.

Also, I feel as though it is worth mentioning that LaSExpy does have a shield, but I could not find an SVG on Wikipedia, which I believe to be the TM method of finding the special shields.

[rickmastfan67]

Interesting how it's routed... I always thought of it as going to I-190 rather than the NSP (actually, I tend to think of that piece as the NSP).  I wonder why the reference route was set up that way, especially given the original plans to extend it to the Rainbow Bridge.

Revisiting this since I was looking at the area in street view today, although the reference routes are set as currently entered, it's essentially signed as the LaSalle going to I-190 at exit 21A and the Niagara Scenic Parkway extending to meet the LaSalle there, with mile 0 being just south of the interchange with the I-190(21A) point.

Posting here as this is what I saw the same signage you did vdeane Friday.  I think that the LaSalle should extend west to end at I-190 at Exit 21A with the Niagara Scenic Pkwy extended northeast to the LaSalle.

Taking a look at the area myself, but I would also recommend a separate point on NY-384 for the ramps from the Niagara Scenic Pkwy just to the west of I-190.  Especially since if you're on SB I-190, you must take NY-384 to those ramps to access NiaScePkwyNia going towards the Falls.

Maybe even a separate point on NiaScePkwyNia for those ramps to NY-384 too.

We should probably also move this topic temporarily back out of the Solved area as well to allow more eyes to see this (which I just did).

[cockroachking]

Interesting how it's routed... I always thought of it as going to I-190 rather than the NSP (actually, I tend to think of that piece as the NSP).  I wonder why the reference route was set up that way, especially given the original plans to extend it to the Rainbow Bridge.

Revisiting this since I was looking at the area in street view today, although the reference routes are set as currently entered, it's essentially signed as the LaSalle going to I-190 at exit 21A and the Niagara Scenic Parkway extending to meet the LaSalle there, with mile 0 being just south of the interchange with the I-190(21A) point.

Posting here as this is what I saw the same signage you did vdeane Friday.  I think that the LaSalle should extend west to end at I-190 at Exit 21A with the Niagara Scenic Pkwy extended northeast to the LaSalle.

Taking a look at the area myself, but I would also recommend a separate point on NY-384 for the ramps from the Niagara Scenic Pkwy just to the west of I-190.  Especially since if you're on SB I-190, you must take NY-384 to those ramps to access NiaScePkwyNia going towards the Falls.

Maybe even a separate point on NiaScePkwyNia for those ramps to NY-384 too.

We should probably also move this topic temporarily back out of the Solved area as well to allow more eyes to see this (which I just did).

I agree 100% with everything you just said, though I am definitely in favor of having too many points over not enough points.

[webny99]

Newbie question: how difficult is it to add new points?

Edit: I guess this is not the place for newbie questions.. carry on..

[cl94]

Time to address some recent comments,

Interesting how it's routed... I always thought of it as going to I-190 rather than the NSP (actually, I tend to think of that piece as the NSP).  I wonder why the reference route was set up that way, especially given the original plans to extend it to the Rainbow Bridge.

Revisiting this since I was looking at the area in street view today, although the reference routes are set as currently entered, it's essentially signed as the LaSalle going to I-190 at exit 21A and the Niagara Scenic Parkway extending to meet the LaSalle there, with mile 0 being just south of the interchange with the I-190(21A) point.

Posting here as this is what I saw the same signage you did vdeane Friday.  I think that the LaSalle should extend west to end at I-190 at Exit 21A with the Niagara Scenic Pkwy extended northeast to the LaSalle.

Taking a look at the area myself, but I would also recommend a separate point on NY-384 for the ramps from the Niagara Scenic Pkwy just to the west of I-190.  Especially since if you're on SB I-190, you must take NY-384 to those ramps to access NiaScePkwyNia going towards the Falls.

Maybe even a separate point on NiaScePkwyNia for those ramps to NY-384 too.

We should probably also move this topic temporarily back out of the Solved area as well to allow more eyes to see this (which I just did).

If we want to go by designations, the parkway and expressway route designations end at each other under I-190, with the spur to the 190 trumpet interchange. But in reality, the LaSalle Expressway ends at the trumpet and the Parkway ends at the LaSalle. Despite the connector "technically" being part of the LaSalle's route designation, the named expressway need not follow the underlying route. Name != route number and, in this case, it probably made more sense to inventory the trumpet as Interstate ramps for funding purposes. If you want, you could consider the S-curve to be a ramp, but the LaSalle Expressway ends at 190.

Agree for a separate set of points for the NY 384 exit from the Parkway, but mainly because of what we currently have for 190. If we're already treating 384 and the Parkway as separate interchanges on 190, it only makes sense to treat that half interchange as its own thing.

[neroute2]

Off topic but what butt nugget OSM editor decided the LaSalle is no longer a freeway?
edit: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/115397860

[yakra]

it's essentially signed as the LaSalle going to I-190 at exit 21A

A nitpick, but there's just a lack of signage. Nothing one way or the other.
Not that this will affect things all that much...

Some interesting stuff going on here.

and the Niagara Scenic Parkway extending to meet the LaSalle there, with mile 0 being just south of the interchange with the I-190(21A) point.

That mile 0 is no longer there if you look at the most recent imagery. Nearby, there are some reference markers (a few examples) that'd contradict that, that were also there in June 2012 when the photo in vdeane's link was taken.
Although, the reassurance shield -- updated for the new pkwy name no less -- looks pretty definitive.
And O Hay Look, there' still a mile 0 posted in the opposite direction, which doesn't correspond to mile 0 of either reference route.

There are cases of reference routes not matching Tour-- (Uhm. Does "Touring Route" just refer to the usual numbered routes with the usual shield, usany in TM-speak? What do I use for a more general term? Ah screw it, I'll just go full-on Krl Rgrz and say "Operational Routes") not corresponding 1:1 to ref routes...
• 1 ref rte = >1 routes (908M = Southern State & Heckscher)
• 1 route = >1 ref rtes (The Hutch = 908A & 907W)
• Hm. This'd be the first case I know of of both put together. This'd make NiaScePkwy be all of 957A & part of 951A, with the rest of the latter being the LaSalle.
• WRT numbers, Isn't there an Interstate out there somewhere with some unique number because there's a touring route with the same number?
• 1 or more Interstates with old state or US route numbers?

And FWIW, talk of extension to the west, albeit as a parkway (skip to 1:37):

I think I've seen enough. Everyone here has posted in favor of the relocation/extension, none opposed.
I'll hold off on making the changes right away though, and see what other comments roll in as I make my way thru the backlog of topics in my regions during my absence, older-to-newer, and get back to this thread.


I will veto the separate NiaScePkwy/NY384 points though, on 1PPI grounds.

Agree for a separate set of points for the NY 384 exit from the Parkway, but mainly because of what we currently have for 190. If we're already treating 384 and the Parkway as separate interchanges on 190, it only makes sense to treat that half interchange as its own thing.

Not the same animal. I-190 originally had 1 point here; later "21B" was added (same pull request that added LaSExpy no less) for graph connection purposes.

Double half interchanges: Usually use one central point and treat both halves as a single, full interchange. Exceptions: a clear gap of at least 0.5 mi/0.8 km separates the two halves, or each half connects to a different highway that we are also mapping.

[yakra]

https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/6872

[Markkos1992]

Is there a reason that only the LaSalle Expressway got an updates entry and not the Niagara Scenic Pkwy?