cansf: Canada Select Named Freeways

[mapcat]

Anyone else in favour of renaming the system to "Canada Select Freeways and Connectors"?

I can't really answer without knowing what sorts of roads "connectors" would include that "freeways" would not.

[julmac]

Anyone else in favour of renaming the system to "Canada Select Freeways and Connectors"?

I can't really answer without knowing what sorts of roads "connectors" would include that "freeways" would not.

Routes that provide continuity to numbered systems (routes that might otherwise be included in the numbered systems of other jurisdictions). Could be
- Freeways with non-freeway gaps such as Crowchild Trail, Glenmore Trail, or extensions to freeways such as Whitemud Drive (west side), Idylwyld Drive
- Unofficial numbered routes such as Albert Street and Victoria Avenue in Regina (implied business routes for SK6 and TC1) or Manitoba Expressway in Moose Jaw ("TO SK2")

[mapcat]

Routes that provide continuity to numbered systems (routes that might otherwise be included in the numbered systems of other jurisdictions). Could be
- Freeways with non-freeway gaps such as Crowchild Trail, Glenmore Trail, or extensions to freeways such as Whitemud Drive (west side), Idylwyld Drive
- Unofficial numbered routes such as Albert Street and Victoria Avenue in Regina (implied business routes for SK6 and TC1) or Manitoba Expressway in Moose Jaw ("TO SK2")

I'm ok with the former but not ok with the latter.

[oscar]

Routes that provide continuity to numbered systems (routes that might otherwise be included in the numbered systems of other jurisdictions). Could be
- Freeways with non-freeway gaps such as Crowchild Trail, Glenmore Trail, or extensions to freeways such as Whitemud Drive (west side), Idylwyld Drive
- Unofficial numbered routes such as Albert Street and Victoria Avenue in Regina (implied business routes for SK6 and TC1) or Manitoba Expressway in Moose Jaw ("TO SK2")

I'm ok with the former but not ok with the latter.

I basically agree with mapcat. In the first category, Idylwild Drive is currently in the HB as part of SK 11. That will need to be revisited before we activate cansk. As I've oft-complained, numbered routes in Saskatoon and their signage are a total clusterfork.

On the second category, if the Ministry of Infrastructure thought the former Regina routes should be treated as business routes, they could've been assigned 1A and 6A, like the Ministry did in Estevan when SK 39 was moved to a new bypass and the old route became 39A. The Manitoba St. Expy. I'm meh about, but it is pretty short.

[yakra]

I'm with Mapcat & Oscar. I'd like to keep the criteria for inclusion as tight as we can. A loose/vague definition such as "Unofficial numbered routes" could open the floodgates to "Why is X included, but not Y?", and routes of questionable relevance.

[oscar]

I'd like to dust this off, to pose the question of whether cannf should be promoted to preview, from its current devel status where the routes are in the HB but aren't displayed on user maps.

I think the parts of the system in the jurisdictions I manage are reasonably complete. I took a look at the two BC routes, and just cleaned them up and synched them with numbered canbc routes. I think both are borderline for inclusion (each route has about four miles of freeway, and Golden Ears Way includes a fair amount of non-freeway mileage), but I'd leave them in for now, subject to peer review.

For SK, the Regina Bypass under construction is a candidate for addition when it's completed this year or next, if its western leg ends up unnumbered (the rest, including a short already-opened segment, seems likely to become a new TCH 1 alignment). Saskatoon's Idylwild Freeway is currently in the HB as part of SK 11, but if we end up removing that from SK 11 before cansk activation, it would be a logical candidate for cannf. In any case, I would omit the Manitoba St. Expressway in Moose Jaw as too short, with less than a mile of freeway.

EDIT: Forgot the ~1 mi. unnumbered stub of Ring Rd. on the north side of Regina, west of SK 6/11. I would omit that as too short. It will not tie in, as a freeway, to the western Regina Bypass leg, which will have its own interchange with SK 11 north of Ring Rd.

I don't think anything in QC is cannf-worthy -- mapcat, your thoughts?

For AB, mapcat suggested addition of Whoop-Up Dr. in Lethbridge -- yakra, your thoughts? It's about two miles long. Also, anything we've missed in Calgary or Edmonton?

ON has quite a few cannf routes. Are they ready for preview, and is there anything else worth adding?

NS has one cannf route. Anything to add from that province, or in NL, NB, PE, MB (I don't think so)? The Arctic territories don't have any freeways.

[mapcat]

I don't recall seeing anything in Quebec that seemed worthy of discussion; if I had I likely would have brought it up to you at the time I was drafting canqc.

Let's put this in preview and let users weigh in after they've noticed the routes.

[froggie]

^^ PEI lacks freeways period at the present, although plans are in the works for a freeway bypass of Cornwall for TCH 1.

[yakra]

I took a look at the two BC routes, and just cleaned them up and synched them with numbered canbc routes. I think both are borderline for inclusion (each route has about four miles of freeway, and Golden Ears Way includes a fair amount of non-freeway mileage), but I'd leave them in for now, subject to peer review.

Personally, I'm not so hot on these.

For AB, mapcat suggested addition of Whoop-Up Dr. in Lethbridge -- yakra, your thoughts? It's about two miles long.

Not so hot on this either. It's short and doesn't connect to anything else in the system. A glorified bridge that happens to have an interchange at each end.
For comparison purposes, there's the Veterans Memorial Bridge in Lewiston-Auburn, Maine. It's shorter, but does connect to a mapped route at each end. This is not included in usasf.

Also, anything we've missed in Calgary or Edmonton?

• We need Glenmore Trail, the bits that got removed when AB8 was truncated before canab activation at least. The eastern end of the freeway is at Barlow Trail.
  Do we extend east of there along the short non-freeway segment, to fill in the gap to AB201(88)/AB560? IIRC there are long-range plans to convert this segment to freeway; there have been semi-recent upgrades at the Ogden Rd and Barlow Trail junctions.
  Do we extend west, concurrent with AB8, along the non-freeway portion of so-named Glenmore Trail within Calgary limits?
  
• Sherwood Park Freeway: I remember the west end being a bit of a sticking point. I'll have to find & review my post where I outlined my thinking, and see if the information available now would still lead me to the same conclusion.
  
• Crowchild Trail looks good to go.
  

NS has one cannf route.

The Bedford Bypass. The shaping point is a bit ugly & could use a rework, but that's nothing to hold us back from promotion to preview.

Anything to add from that province,

The MacKay Bridge is comparable to...
on the one hand, the Betsy Ross Bridge,
and OTOH, the aforementioned Veterans Memorial Bridge.
Thoughts?

or in NL, NB, PE, MB (I don't think so)?

Nothing to add.

[michih]

What's about Memorial Drive NE in Calgary?

[yakra]

What's about Memorial Drive NE in Calgary?

Not so wild about it. Short, doesn't go much of anywhere, strikes me as a bit of a glorified boulevard. The interchange with AB2 has traffic signals.

[Duke87]

What's about Memorial Drive NE in Calgary?

Not so wild about it. Short, doesn't go much of anywhere, strikes me as a bit of a glorified boulevard. The interchange with AB2 has traffic signals.

I would not want to arbitrarily map some of Memorial Drive without mapping the entire length of the roadway that carries that name.

I also lean towards not wanting to include it on the ground of subjective appearance of significance... but the way I see this, if someone is willing to put in the effort to map it, whatever, throw it in.

[julmac]

May need to throw in the existing portions of TC 1 and SK 11 that will be bypassed with the Regina Bypass. According to the guide sign plan (available here: https://tinyurl.com/y47dwnbn ) the west leg of the bypass will be SK11 and the south leg will be TC 1, leaving the existing "bypassed" sections unnumbered, at least in the "inbound" directions. Presumably, no changes will be made to the "outbound" directions (existing signs for TC 1 and SK 11 will remain), which will be odd... two Highway 11s ?.

[neroute2]

May need to throw in the existing portions of TC 1 and SK 11 that will be bypassed with the Regina Bypass. According to the guide sign plan (available here: https://tinyurl.com/y47dwnbn ) the west leg of the bypass will be SK11 and the south leg will be TC 1, leaving the existing "bypassed" sections unnumbered, at least in the "inbound" directions.

Agreed. Old 1 west of downtown will be signed as Ring Road, and (non-freeway) old 1 east of downtown is Victoria Avenue. But old 11 has no name on these plans.

[oscar]

May need to throw in the existing portions of TC 1 and SK 11 that will be bypassed with the Regina Bypass. According to the guide sign plan (available here: https://tinyurl.com/y47dwnbn ) the west leg of the bypass will be SK11 and the south leg will be TC 1, leaving the existing "bypassed" sections unnumbered, at least in the "inbound" directions.

Agreed. Old 1 west of downtown will be signed as Ring Road, and (non-freeway) old 1 east of downtown is Victoria Avenue. But old 11 has no name on these plans.

If by "old 11" you mean the freeway between the west leg of the Regina Bypass and the interchange with SK 6, yes that's unaccounted for in the guide sign plan. But that plan doesn't indicate what signage will be on southbound SK 11 approaching the west leg, since that's not part of the Bypass project.

The bypassed part of old TCH 1, between the west leg interchange and SK 6, will be at least part of Ring Rd. Ring Rd. could include not only that segment, but also the part of Ring Rd. concurrent with SK 6, and the short stub of Ring Rd. north of downtown Regina and west of SK 6 (which I've left out of cannf for being too short, but would definitely be long enough if combined with the rest of Ring Rd. that is currently numbered).

Note, however, that the guide plans are from 2015. More recent drone footage (around 7:05) indicates that a guide sign already erected seems to show the bypassed part of old TCH 1 as part of a numbered provincial route, probably SK 11. So the plans might've changed since then. We'll know more later this year when the Bypass is completed, or when the project team sends out another drone (hope this time they send it counter-clockwise around Regina, to catch as-built signage on the western bypass leg approaching the TCH 1 junction), or maybe sooner if julmac can do some field-checking next time he's in Regina.