Author Topic: NY: Inner Loop  (Read 8155 times)

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Offline cl94

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NY: Inner Loop
« on: February 09, 2021, 12:36:35 pm »
The Inner Loop might be the most notable road in New York that's missing from the site. The biggest argument I have seen against including the Inner Loop is its short length, but I'm going to press the case for including it using precedent from other states.

As it stands, the portion of the Inner Loop not concurrent with I-490 is 1.4 miles in length. Yet, there are currently 8 entries in usasf that are shorter than the unnumbered segment of the Inner Loop:

- CT WilBroCon (1.28 mi).
- IN SamJonExpy (1.09 mi)
- MA SolFieRd (1.38 mi)
- MD CabJohnPkwy (1.16 mi)
- NH CirHwy (1.39 mi)
- PA BetRossBri (1.27 mi)
- PA CenScrExp (0.96 mi)
- WA AirExpy (1.31 mi)

If all of these are important enough to include in their respective states, surely the Inner Loop is important enough to include. Unlike most of these, the Inner Loop even gets its own shield and is very prominently signed. A few of these are stub freeways that were never any longer. I'm not saying that any of these entries should be deleted; quite the contrary. But I don't think that you can justify including these and say that the Inner Loop should be excluded from the HB.

If we want to go by signed length (which includes an I-490 concurrency), the Inner Loop is roughly 2.1 miles long. There are just under 20 entries in usasf that are under 2.1 miles in length.

Offline yakra

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Re: NY: Inner Loop
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2021, 01:56:53 pm »
The REAL argument against its inclusion was that I didn't want to have to deal with merge conflicts while usanyp is in flux pending activation, and I could more easily take care of it once the dust settles on usasf.csv & usasf_con.csv. It could wait, I thought, not being earth-shatteringly important.

And sure, I could redo a little work, or resolve a merge conflict, or whatever. Certainly not earth-shatteringly difficult there either.

But the timing of this request is not lost on me -- The conduct of that one person who was... rather vocally requesting it last night on the AARoads forum was way, way out of line.
I am inclined to withhold this route if only to demonstrate that that's not how to, as an adult, request something that one desires, and that throwing a tantrum and gaslighting does not produce results.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 02:17:46 pm by yakra »
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Offline neroute2

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Re: NY: Dinner Poop
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2021, 02:07:48 pm »
Smells like arse in here.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 02:09:50 pm by neroute2 »

Offline yakra

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Re: NY: Inner Loop
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2021, 02:13:37 pm »
neroute2, do you have anything constructive to contribute to this topic?
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Offline cl94

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Re: NY: Inner Loop
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2021, 02:20:34 pm »
But the timing of this request is not lost on me -- The conduct of that one person who was... rather vocally requesting it last night on the AARoads forum was way, way out of line.
I am inclined to withhold this route if only to demonstrate that that's not how to, as an adult, request something that one desires, and that throwing a tantrum and gaslighting does not produce results.

My request is entirely independent of the other person. Withholding to prove a point isn't a particularly "adult" action either. Multiple people have asked for it kindly over the years and nothing has come out of it. The concern he and a few others share about people performing actions unilaterally without full discussion is a valid criticism.

I'll state this in plainer terms: withholding a route because of a personal grudge is nothing short of childish.

Adding on: why couldn't you explain the merger issues on the forum last night instead of giving "it's too short" and similar arguments? The person in question would have probably accepted that as an answer (in fact, I know he would have, because I passed on the reasoning you gave here). The merger argument is much more "acceptable" than "it's too short", especially when there are reasonable counterexamples for "it's too short".
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 02:32:24 pm by cl94 »

Offline yakra

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Re: NY: Inner Loop
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2021, 03:01:54 pm »
Withholding to prove a point isn't a particularly "adult" action either.
*Chuckle* One may call it "parent" from a Transactional Analysis standpoint, perhaps?

Multiple people have asked for it kindly over the years and nothing has come out of it.
Maybe so. And it just hasn't made it to that tipping point and made it in. It's what it is.
My own personal skin in the game  = I've clinched it, and if it were added it would go into my .list immediately. I'm not too opposed to this route, and have expressed support (albeit lukewarm support) for it in the past.
Lemme say this -- two people whose opinions I value and respect have advocated for this route. Find me 2 more and in it goes.

The concern he and a few others share about people performing actions unilaterally without full discussion is a valid criticism.
Maybe so, but that'd be one wholly unrelated to the Inner Loop.
A central facet of this project that we'd always do well to remember is that we can't make all of the people happy all the time. I believe one person said that in chat too.
When changing a chunk of data is on the agenda, it's possible that there'll be somebody out there who doesn't like the change. When such a change is done in order to keep with established standard practices, I won't run around the room asking everybody "How about this now, still agree with this?" I don't expect anyone else would, either.
Any rule could in theory change any time; absent it actually happening, we stick with those that are established.

I'll state this in plainer terms: withholding a route because of a personal grudge is nothing short of childish.
Call it that if you will. I'll refer to my two comments above in this message. I'd like to temporarily hold this out as a necessary learning opportunity.

Adding on: why couldn't you explain the merger issues on the forum last night instead of giving "it's too short" and similar arguments?
Hold it right there.
I said no such thing. Others did, but not me. My response to others bringing up length was to attempt to clarify that length is is fact not a deal-breaker for me -- including linking to a forum post where I'd attempted to explain my criteria with more nuance.
With this, you now have joined in on this gaslighting as well -- attempting to tell me what my words and thought processes were when I know full well better. (I have a log of the chat and can PM it upon request.)

I found this individual's "photographic memory" especially egregious -- essentially telling me "Your own memory of your words and your knowledge of your own thought process is invalid; I get to tell you what you said." This kind of attitude is extremely problematic, and that extends well out beyond Internet road enthusiast forums into real life.

WRT leaving the chat when I did, I am under no obligation to continue hanging around somewhere when people become abusive.
I think I still do need to have a discussion with this person.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 03:05:14 pm by yakra »
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Offline cl94

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Re: NY: Inner Loop
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2021, 03:18:16 pm »
With this, you now have joined in on this gaslighting as well -- attempting to tell me what my words and thought processes were when I know full well better. (I have a log of the chat and can PM it upon request.)

I apologize if I am mistaken, but my (albeit limited) observations of the situation and what I learned from other people was that "it isn't in because it's too short". I am not trying to gaslight anybody. "Please stop the personal attacks" is all I am asking.

On the topic of logging the chat, that will earn you a ban from forum chat. No ifs, ands, or buts. Logging forum chat is not acceptable. That chat is unlogged and people state their opinions knowing it is an unlogged forum. Most of the moderators of forum chat are on board with that.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 03:28:15 pm by cl94 »

Offline yakra

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Re: NY: Inner Loop
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2021, 04:02:24 pm »
On the topic of logging the chat, that will earn you a ban from forum chat. No ifs, ands, or buts. Logging forum chat is not acceptable. That chat is unlogged and people state their opinions knowing it is an unlogged forum. Most of the moderators of forum chat are on board with that.
My apologies on the logging. I was unaware of that policy. Is this written down; is there a page of Chat Rules on AARoads? (I did a quick check; didn't see a link.) If so, I would do well to review  familiarize myself with it.
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Offline Duke87

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Re: NY: Inner Loop
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2021, 04:22:40 pm »
Lemme say this -- two people whose opinions I value and respect have advocated for this route. Find me 2 more and in it goes.

Am I one of the two? If not, I'm three.


Anyway, regarding the underlying personal dispute here... I think it's important to take a step back for a second and realize a couple things. For one, I am confident everyone involved ultimately means well - we're all passionate about our hobby, sometimes some people's passion can get the better of them.

For another, I think to some degree there is a bit of a communications disconnect here as well. Yakra, I can appreciate that you were trying to explain your criteria with more nuance and thank you for clarifying that. However, I have to agree with cl94 that this was not clear last night and it did not come across that way. Which is not your fault, it was an innoncent misunderstanding... but now that it has been cleared up I suggest moving on and focusing on the roads.

Another forum I used to moderate had a rule: "discuss the issues, not each other". I think this is a good mantra to keep in mind going forward.

My apologies on the logging. I was unaware of that policy. Is this written down; is there a page of Chat Rules on AARoads? (I did a quick check; didn't see a link.) If so, I would do well to review  familiarize myself with it.

The AARoads chat doesn't have any official written rules, only a set of social norms/expectations which its regular participants have mutually agreed upon. "No logging" is the only one you should need to watch out for. Outside of this we really only boot people for being creepy, annoying, or obviously underage.

Offline Jim

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Re: NY: Inner Loop
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2021, 05:39:09 pm »
I'd like to see the Inner Loop in usasf.  I think it's a more significant route than some that have already made our cut.

Offline yakra

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Re: NY: Inner Loop
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2021, 05:58:28 pm »
Jim, you'd be #3. ;)
I'm sure I could find a 4th person if I search the forum or the old AARoads board.
That aside, I've had a chance to speak with the person I had the disagreement with and calm down some a bit, basically said "yeah OK, I'll add it in later today" now that we've had a chance to talk it out.
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Offline yakra

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Re: NY: Inner Loop
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2021, 06:44:13 pm »
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Offline the_spui_ninja

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Re: NY: Inner Loop
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2021, 09:03:43 pm »
I'd like to see the Inner Loop in usasf.  I think it's a more significant route than some that have already made our cut.
It even has a shield!
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Offline Jim

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Re: NY: Inner Loop
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2021, 09:32:59 pm »
The route's in, and I've got the shield as shown on its wikipedia page (the orange version) live on the site.

Offline vdeane

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Re: NY: Inner Loop
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2021, 09:42:58 pm »
Jim, you'd be #3. ;)
I'm sure I could find a 4th person if I search the forum or the old AARoads board.
That aside, I've had a chance to speak with the person I had the disagreement with and calm down some a bit, basically said "yeah OK, I'll add it in later today" now that we've had a chance to talk it out.
Feel free to have me as #4, even if I didn't get around to posting until after you already decided to add it.

A couple things of note:
-I'm not sure how long it will stick around in TM.  There is currently an idea floating around to remove the northern section.  If that happened, the remaining piece would only be 0.6 miles long.  It doesn't look like anything will be happening in the near term, but then, that's what I thought about the eastern section just a month or two before it was closed for good.  I wouldn't have even been able to get one last drive in had seven feet of snow not gotten dumped on Buffalo, which delayed the arrival of some equipment if I remember right.  But it will be good to have it while it exists as it does, at least.
-It was mentioned earlier about it being co-signed with I-490.  While that used to be the case, newer signage shows I-490 only for that section.  Looks like this note doesn't affect the pull request.

The route's in, and I've got the shield as shown on its wikipedia page (the orange version) live on the site.
If you want the current one, I actually made one for my site (better than the one I have up now) and it should be on there as of the next update (though I don't guarantee perfect accuracy, since I had to make one up myself with my existing graphics as a template).  The orange one certainly is a classic, though.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.