NY: NY 9A Southern Endpoint

[Markkos1992]

Recently looking at the Roadway Inventory before my latest trip, I was fine with a no-build on NY 9A. 

However, I found this end sign by Battery Place Saturday Night making me wonder if we should extend NY 9A there somehow (with maybe another point for the FDR Dr split).

[yakra]

Nah. The road it's on is inventoried as a ramp. Sometimes we get END signs past the end of a route. Or even off to the side.
"The End is behind you!"

I don't believe all such oddities should be reflected in the HB.

[Markkos1992]

Fair enough.  I had always seen NY 9A as actually ending at Battery Place instead of I-478.  What we have now basically could be interpreted as 1PPI.

I guess my main concern with these dangling ends goes back to some of the inconsistencies we have involving them.  For instance, the end of NJ 143 is all but part of the US 30 intersection IMO, yet we include that dangling end at the moment.

Of course, AZ 79, AZ 186, and PA 184 have intersections where these dangling ends in theory are....

[rickmastfan67]

So, you do know about this 'Exit 1' sign, right?

https://goo.gl/maps/LuToM2ry3HSX4j9p9

I think this by itself is justification to extend it.

Plus I-478 is 'Exit 2'.

Plus, shouldn't we have a point at '40thSt' instead of '42ndSt'?  40thSt has an exit number (#6), while 42nd doesn't.

[vdeane]

Use of exit 1 for a starting terminus is NY is not without precedent.  Signing NY 9A down the ramp from FDR Drive (as it's inventoried) is odd, but maybe that's to keep trucks off FDR Drive.  In any case, this feels like the start of a rabbit hole... if one were to extent NY 9A because of that, then you'd also have to move NY 324, add the truck routes back (including the ones that were pending a decision on what to do with them), add Business NY 25A (not recognized by the state but nonetheless signed, just like the truck routes; I think even the bannered US routes, with the exception of Business US 62, are the same way, but at least they're on a combination of touring routes and reference routes), and possibly extend a couple parkways.  It's basically a complete change to how we've been dealing with NY to date.

EDIT: And yes, it can be interpreted as 1PPI - especially as the inventory has it as a ramp from FDR Drive.  I also feel like how NY 878 is handled probably has bearing here, for consistency, unless we decide to declare 1PPI.

[Markkos1992]

I'd like to look at NY 25A Business further because we do have a fully-signed OH 18 Business in North Baltimore in the HB that Wikipedia says is locally maintained.

Honestly, I would probably be in favor of adding NY 25A Business (even with local maintenance) without adding any of the Truck Routes.  Unless a Truck Route can be fully defined, it should not be added to the HB IMO (in NY or any other state).

[vdeane]

I feel like at least some of the truck routes are at least as well defined as Business NY 25A.

Also, speaking of truck routes, Truck NY 415 was discovered after the decision was previously made not to include them...

[rickmastfan67]

add Business NY 25A (not recognized by the state but nonetheless signed)

I'd possibly be against adding it, mainly because I couldn't find a single shield along the route itself.  The closest I could find, was this 'TO West NY-25A' shield in 2013 imagery, but it has since been removed.

[Markkos1992]

Well we do have DE 404 TRUCK in Delaware (signed only on these) that is otherwise concurrent with US 9 TRUCK (signed normally).

EDIT:  I do think that 9 should become 72ndSt since that interchange is just an on-ramp to NY 9A/Henry Hudson Pkwy NB.

[vdeane]

One more thought: that ramp is inventoried as a ramp from FDR Drive, but it's not really part of the parkway from that short stretch to the tunnel.  Given that FDR Drive has a point for Battery Place right now, perhaps a good compromise given the signage would be to extend NY 9A and truncate FDR Drive over that segment, and declare 1PPI for the split?

Looking at it for my own travels, it might be worth a re-clinch if/when I'm next down that way, but unless both NY 9A and FDR Drive have separate segments for that piece, removing it from my .list file seems pedantic.

[Duke87]

My recommendation here is:
- extend 9A south to the location of exit 1, that is to say the gore point of the ramp down into the Battery Park Underpass
- Truncate FDRooDr to also end at this point
- eliminate the BatPl point on FDRooDr since... that connection doesn't exist in such a way that this point has any independent utility from a point at "exit 1"


Regarding NY 25ABus, I'm going with exclude it for the same reason truck routes are excluded: does not officially exist. If there are such mapped routes in other states that also do not officially exist, then remove them too. That said keep in mind here that "is locally maintained" does not equal "does not officially exist" - check official state sources, locally maintained but officially existing routes are a thing in many states.

[rickmastfan67]

then you'd also have to move NY 324

NY-324 is a difficult one to deal with due to WB staying on the surface roads, while EB being on I-190 in that area.

[vdeane]

then you'd also have to move NY 324

NY-324 is a difficult one to deal with due to WB staying on the surface roads, while EB being on I-190 in that area.

Eh, signage is unclear.  At some point in the last decade, TO banners got added on the surface road EB, but they're not perfectly accurate (note that this is where the connection to the exit 15 off ramp comes in).  The reference markers also all say 324, so it seems like NYSDOT realized there was a US 87 in CO situation with the left turn prohibition at exit 17, moved the inventory, but has been more haphazard with respect to signage.  There are also TO banners on the mainline.  So it's not as simple as saying that one direction goes one way and the other direction goes the other.

[Markkos1992]

Of course, AZ 79, AZ 186, and PA 184 have intersections where these dangling ends in theory are....

Also we can add PA 136 to this list now as well.  I found this segment marker just east of US 30 at Hamilton Ave yesterday.  I guess I should add this point in based on how I handled PA 184, but I think we may need to discuss this further.

Specifically for PA 136,  I do not get why this route does not make it to Downtown Greensburg via Newton St and the one-way Pittsburgh/Otterman Sts but whatever.

[Markkos1992]

I proceeded with the slight PA 136 extension for now.  If I am convinced to change it back later, so be it.

https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/5324